Quick question about a game I played last night with a friend. I had Sylvan Safekeeper, World Shaper and The Gitrog Monster on the board along with six lands. Opponent attacks, for simplicity's sake we'll just say with a vanilla 10/10. I want to block with Shaper and in response sack all of my lands to Safekeeper in order to trigger Gitrog and then when Shaper dies, get them all back. My question is do I have to have enough legal targets for Safekeeper to do that? Because once I give a creature shroud I obviously can't target it again.
My thought is that since sacking the land is a cost, there's nothing that prevents me from doing it even if the ability can't happen. Is this the correct assumption?
Once the creature has shroud, it cannot be targeted anymore. But since shroud is granted on resolution of the Safekeeper's ability, you can simply respond to the ability by activating it again. Of course, keep in mind that the opponent can respond with targeted spells and abilities until that time, too.
In order to activate a targeted abilty or cast a targeted spell at all you have to have legal targets for them, for every instance of the word "target" and as many as that instance requires. You cannot activate such an ability or cast such a spell without also choosing legal targets for them. So your assumption is incorrect, the rules prevent you from doing so.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its
costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the
spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a
player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to
begin this process (see rule 601.3). If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to
comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the
moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 721, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
[...]
601.2c The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell
requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a
kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did
not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative
or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player
announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some
cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell’s text. Once the number of targets the
spell has is determined, that number doesn’t change, even if the information used to determine
the number of targets does. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance
of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places,
the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as
it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target,
the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects
without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can’t be chosen as a target.
The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger
when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they’ll wait
to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
[...]
602.2. To activate an ability is to put it onto the stack and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve
and have its effect. Only an object’s controller (or its owner, if it doesn’t have a controller) can
activate its activated ability unless the object specifically says otherwise. Activating an ability
follows the steps listed below, in order.If, at any point during the activation of an ability, a player is
unable to comply with any of those steps, the activation is illegal; the game returns to the moment
before that ability started to be activated (see rule 721, “Handling Illegal Actions”). Announcements
and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.
[...]
602.2b The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a
spell listed in rules 601.2b–i. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to
casting a spell. An activated ability’s analog to a spell’s mana cost (as referenced in rule 601.2f)
is its activation cost.
Thank you for answering. That makes sense. I knew that about spells with targets, don't know why I didn't think about it being the same for abilities.
So just to be clear, in my scenario, I could sac a land and target Gitrog and in response to draw trigger sac a land and target Gitrog and repeat till all six lands are gone and have six safekeeper abilities on the stack. Correct? I assume after the top one resolves the rest just fizzle?
Thank you for answering. That makes sense. I knew that about spells with targets, don't know why I didn't think about it being the same for abilities.
So just to be clear, in my scenario, I could sac a land and target Gitrog and in response to draw trigger sac a land and target Gitrog and repeat till all six lands are gone and have six safekeeper abilities on the stack. Correct? I assume after the top one resolves the rest just fizzle?
Yes, that's all correct.
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I recently played a couple games against the same comboes, Sylvan Safekeeper + The Gitrog Monster / Korvold Fae-Cursed King. I played Mtg Edh only for a couple years now, so some rules are still new to me. My opponents and i disagreed about how exactly the combo works, when you want to destroy lands+draw cards.
Will you be able to play the combo when you only got 2 creatures, say Sylvan Safekeeper + Korvold, Fae-Cursed King again and again, or can you only give the creatures shroud 1 time each? And if you are able to target 1 monster again and again with shroud, how do you then draw the cards? If you sacrifice 10 lands, do you draw the cards 1 after the other, or all 10 simultaniously? Or can you draw 1 card, give it shroud again, draw another, until you dont want to sacrifice any more lands?
Will you be able to play the combo when you only got 2 creatures, say Sylvan Safekeeper + Korvold, Fae-Cursed King again and again, or can you only give the creatures shroud 1 time each? And if you are able to target 1 monster again and again with shroud, how do you then draw the cards? If you sacrifice 10 lands, do you draw the cards 1 after the other, or all 10 simultaniously? Or can you draw 1 card, give it shroud again, draw another, until you dont want to sacrifice any more lands?
Take the following scenario:
Assume you control Sylvan Safekeeper and The Gitrog Monster, and the stack is empty.
You activate Sylvan Safekeeper's ability, targeting The Gitrog Monster, and sacrifice a land to pay for it. This makes The Gitrog Monster's ability trigger and go on the stack above the Sylvan Safekeeper ability.
Retaining priority, you repeat the previous step as often as you can and choose to. (Note that like any other activated ability, Sylvan Safekeeper's ability has no effect unless and until it resolves. Note also that the lands are sacrificed this way one at a time, not all at once.)
As a result, there will be alternating Sylvan Safekeeper and The Gitrog Monster abilities on the stack.
All players pass, then the top spell or ability resolves, which will be a The Gitrog Monster ability. You draw a card, then the ability leaves the stack.
All players pass, then the top spell or ability resolves, which will be a Sylvan Safekeeper ability. The Gitrog Monster gains shroud until end of turn.
Assuming the stack isn't empty yet: All players pass, then the top spell or ability resolves, which will be a The Gitrog Monster ability. You draw a card, then the ability leaves the stack.
Assuming the stack isn't empty yet: All players pass, then the top spell or ability resolves, which will be a Sylvan Safekeeper ability. It fails to resolve since The Gitrog Monster is now an illegal target for that ability. The ability leaves the stack.
And so on until the stack is empty again.
The same applies accordingly replacing The Gitrog Monster with Korvold, except you put a +1/+1 counter on Korvold in addition to drawing a card.
So if i understand correctly - After you sacrifice the land and have drawn the card because of Gitrogs effect, you can activate Sylvan Safekeepers ability again on Gitrog to draw another?
So if i understand correctly - After you sacrifice the land and have drawn the card because of Gitrogs effect, you can activate Sylvan Safekeepers ability again on Gitrog to draw another?
Yes. As long as no Safekeeper activation has resolved, The Gitrog Monster doesn't have shroud and can be the target of spells and abilities, the Safekeeper's ability included.
My thought is that since sacking the land is a cost, there's nothing that prevents me from doing it even if the ability can't happen. Is this the correct assumption?
In order to activate a targeted abilty or cast a targeted spell at all you have to have legal targets for them, for every instance of the word "target" and as many as that instance requires. You cannot activate such an ability or cast such a spell without also choosing legal targets for them. So your assumption is incorrect, the rules prevent you from doing so.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
So just to be clear, in my scenario, I could sac a land and target Gitrog and in response to draw trigger sac a land and target Gitrog and repeat till all six lands are gone and have six safekeeper abilities on the stack. Correct? I assume after the top one resolves the rest just fizzle?
I recently played a couple games against the same comboes, Sylvan Safekeeper + The Gitrog Monster / Korvold Fae-Cursed King. I played Mtg Edh only for a couple years now, so some rules are still new to me. My opponents and i disagreed about how exactly the combo works, when you want to destroy lands+draw cards.
Will you be able to play the combo when you only got 2 creatures, say Sylvan Safekeeper + Korvold, Fae-Cursed King again and again, or can you only give the creatures shroud 1 time each? And if you are able to target 1 monster again and again with shroud, how do you then draw the cards? If you sacrifice 10 lands, do you draw the cards 1 after the other, or all 10 simultaniously? Or can you draw 1 card, give it shroud again, draw another, until you dont want to sacrifice any more lands?
So if i understand correctly - After you sacrifice the land and have drawn the card because of Gitrogs effect, you can activate Sylvan Safekeepers ability again on Gitrog to draw another?
Yes. As long as no Safekeeper activation has resolved, The Gitrog Monster doesn't have shroud and can be the target of spells and abilities, the Safekeeper's ability included.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
(which could be useful, for example, if your opponent plays Wilderness Elemental or Price of Progress)
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules