- My turn.
- Play massacre girl and wipe the board. Still have 2 mana open and moment of craving in hand.
- at end of turn, my opponent plays spore swarm and created 3 saprolings.
- priority returns to me and I cast moment of craving on a saproling. It resolves and saproling dies.
Now, since massacre girl came into play this turn, her -1/-1 whenever a creature dies triggers and I kill all the saprolings. Right?
Slightly different scenario.
- My trurn. My opponent has two 3/3 on the field.
- Play massacre girl and triggered ability goes on the stack.
- Play Fungal Infection on one of the 3/3. It resolves and it becomes a 2/2 while I create a 1/1.
- Massacre girl's ability resolves and my 1/1 dies.
At this point, I get the extra trigger giving extra -1/-1 to every other creature, which kills the creature that was targeted by fungal infection and triggers the ability again killing the last creature my opponent's controls, right?
Also, all of this can happen only in the same turn massacre girl enters the battlefield, because it is all part of the same etb ability, right?
1. The delayed triggered ability from Massacre Girl's enters-the-battlefield ability applies whenever "a creature", not just a creature that was on the battlefield when Massacre Girl's enters-the-battlefield ability resolves, "dies this turn" (that ability doesn't say, for example, "Whenever one of those creatures dies this turn..."; compare Massacre Girl with Skeletonize). Thus, that ability applies even if a creature that enters the battlefield at a different phase of the turn dies "this turn", including a Saproling token in this scenario. (Moreover, that ability triggers whenever any "creature", including Massacre Girl itself, "dies this turn" by any means, whether for having toughness 0 or less, by being destroyed or sacrificed, or otherwise [C.R. 700.7, 704.5f, 701.7a, 701.17a].)
2. Here is an analysis of this modified scenario in detail:
You control no creatures and your opponent controls two 3/3 creatures.
You cast Massacre Girl.
All players pass, then Massacre Girl resolves and its enters-the-battlefield triggers.
You cast Fungal Infection in response, targeting one of the 3/3 creatures.
All players pass, then Fungal Infection resolves. That creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn, making it a 2/2 creature. You then create a 1/1 Saproling token.
All players pass, then the Massacre Girl ability resolves. All creatures at that time, other than Massacre Girl, get -1/-1 until end of turn. Thus, the Saproling token is now 0/0 and the creatures your opponents control are 1/1 and 2/2.
The Saproling token dies for having toughness 0 or less, making the delayed triggered ability from Massacre Girl's enters-the-battlefield ability trigger.
All players pass, then that ability resolves. All creatures at that time, other than Massacre Girl, get -1/-1 until end of turn. Now, the creatures your opponent controls are 0/0 and 1/1.
The 0/0 creature dies for having toughness 0 or less, making the delayed triggered ability from Massacre Girl's enters-the-battlefield ability trigger.
All players pass, then that ability resolves. All creatures at that time, other than Massacre Girl, get -1/-1 until end of turn. Now, the remaining creature your opponent controls is 0/0.
The 0/0 creature dies for having toughness 0 or less, making the delayed triggered ability from Massacre Girl's enters-the-battlefield ability trigger.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Correction after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jun. 27, 2021): Edit rule citations.
- My turn.
- Play massacre girl and wipe the board. Still have 2 mana open and moment of craving in hand.
- at end of turn, my opponent plays spore swarm and created 3 saprolings.
- priority returns to me and I cast moment of craving on a saproling. It resolves and saproling dies.
Now, since massacre girl came into play this turn, her -1/-1 whenever a creature dies triggers and I kill all the saprolings. Right?
Yes. The duration of the delayed trigger ends in the cleanup step. since you kill the saproling in the end step, which is before the cleanup step, the delayed trigger goes off and kills the other saprolings, too.
Slightly different scenario.
- My trurn. My opponent has two 3/3 on the field.
- Play massacre girl and triggered ability goes on the stack.
- Play Fungal Infection on one of the 3/3. It resolves and it becomes a 2/2 while I create a 1/1.
- Massacre girl's ability resolves and my 1/1 dies.
At this point, I get the extra trigger giving extra -1/-1 to every other creature, which kills the creature that was targeted by fungal infection and triggers the ability again killing the last creature my opponent's controls, right?
Correct.
Also, all of this can happen only in the same turn massacre girl enters the battlefield, because it is all part of the same etb ability, right?
Correct as in that it only applies to the one turn, but no to your reasoing. Massacre Girl's trigger creates a dealyed trigger when it resolves. The delayed trigger has a duration ("this turn"), which ends in the cleanup step. So until and including the end step, every time a creature dies, the delayed trigger goes off.
Yes. The duration of the delayed trigger ends in the cleanup step. since you kill the saproling in the end step, which is before the cleanup step, the delayed trigger goes off and kills the other saprolings, too.
Correction, the delayed trigger does not expire in the cleanup step. Delayed triggers are not until end of turn effects, so they will continue to apply until the turn is over.
Yes. The duration of the delayed trigger ends in the cleanup step. since you kill the saproling in the end step, which is before the cleanup step, the delayed trigger goes off and kills the other saprolings, too.
Correction, the delayed trigger does not expire in the cleanup step. Delayed triggers are not until end of turn effects, so they will continue to apply until the turn is over.
I'd argue, that this falls under 512.2
514. Cleanup Step
[...]
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents
(including phased-out permanents) is removed and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end.
This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
The key word there is "effects". The delayed trigger is not an effect, it's an ability set up by the effect of a resolving trigger. The effect that set it up does not state until end of turn or this turn, that is part of the delayed trigger. Therefore the delayed triggered ability will trigger whenever the condition is met during that turn, even in the cleanup step.
The key word there is "effects". The delayed trigger is not an effect, it's an ability set up by the effect of a resolving trigger. The effect that set it up does not state until end of turn or this turn, that is part of the delayed trigger. Therefore the delayed triggered ability will trigger whenever the condition is met during that turn, even in the cleanup step.
This detail—whether a delayed triggered ability of the form "Whenever [something happens] this turn..." ceases to trigger at the same time as other "'this turn' effects" within the meaning of C.R. 514.2—is something I am seeking a clarification to with the rules manager. The same is true for the related issue of whether an effect creating such an ability is a "'this turn' effec[t]" within the meaning of that rule. By the way, this issue also exists with delayed triggered abilities of the form "Until end of turn, whenever [something happens], ..." (examples include Bonus Round and False Cure; C.R. 514.2 covers "until end of turn" effects as well as "this turn" effects).
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere this turn, that player loses 1 life.
Does the first ability wear off in the cleanup step like a continuous effect?
Or does it actually last until the actual turn end because of the delayed trigger?
It doesn't end at the start of the cleanup step, because it's not a continuous effect.
As you say, it is a delayed triggered ability - it will trigger when its triggering event happens. “This turn” here doesn't have the special meaning it has for continuous effects; it simply adds a check that is done to know if the triggering event happens or not.
A situation where it's relevant: after Duskmantle Guildmage's ability resolves, Giant Growth is cast on an Eager Cadet controlled by the opponent, then Night of Souls' Betrayal is cast. At end of turn, Giant Growth's effect will end, then Eager Cadet dies, which triggers Duskmantle Guildmage's delayed triggered ability.
All players pass, then the Massacre Girl ability resolves. All creatures at that time get -1/-1 until end of turn. Thus, the Saproling token is now 0/0, Massacre Girl is 3/3, and the creatures your opponents control are 1/1 and 2/2.
Massacre Girl never stops being 4/4. Neither of her -1/-1 clauses affect herself.
112.6k refers to how an effect might create a delayed triggered ability.
405.6a improves this to a generic situation: Effects create delayed triggered abilities.
603.7 repeats this.
603.7b is the distressingly brief, "603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn.""
Under the heading 610, "One-shot effects" we see that sometimes a one-shot effect creates a delayed triggered ability:
"610.2. Some one-shot effects create a delayed triggered ability, which instructs a player to do something later in the game (usually at a specific time) rather than as the spell or ability that's creating the one-shot effect resolves. See rule 603.7."
The glossary on delayed triggered abilities points us to 603.7 also, which has seven subrules.
Clearly, a one-shot effect can't expire. But the status of delayed triggered abilities that have a stated duration is not explicit. They are created by effects. We can't infer that a particular delayed trigger was a one-shot or continuous effect, because the duration that an ability has is a quality of that ability (and of delayed triggered abilities uniquely), which will not have anything necessarily to do with a duration (if any) of the effect that created it.
Notice that 603.7b does not mention effects. The properties in 603.7[a-*] are analytical elements of the delayed triggered ability itself.
Even if the intent is for the duration of a delayed triggered ability to be equal to the duration of a continuous effect creating it, no part of the cleanup step cleans up "abilities", only effects. Delayed triggered abilities have to be specified that they -exist- for the duration of the continuous effect generating them, which is given as what is now called "the duration the delayed triggered ability has", and for that, 603.7b needs to be changed.
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Kitachewsky's declaration doesn't help in the cases of Bonus Round and False Cure. And it does not conform to the structure of current Delayed Triggered Ability rules in the above review. This declaration could conform to the proposal that all delayed triggered abilities are created by one-shot effects. But we still have Bonus Round and False Cure on the wayside. And 603.7b is still obviously inadequate.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I also have a question regarding the delayed trigger of menace girl. Does the delayed ability apply to anytime a creature dies even in following turns or is it only the turn it enters the battlefield? Was playing with my roommate who casted it turn wiped my board then on a following turn after combat damage resolved and creatures died he insisted that the delayed trigger came into effect. I told him the enter the battlefield effect is a prerequisite to the delayed trigger hence the “this turn” statement in the delayed trigger. He said because these are two separate statements they are independent from one another. But if that’s the case why even bother putting the “this turn” onto the effect and just say whenever another creature dies.
You are correct in that the "this turn" verbiage applies to the delayed trigger. It is exceptionally clear because that text is used within the text setting up the delayed trigger so it is a stretch to read it is as anything else.
On a side note: separate sentences in the text means nothing other than Wizards cares about the grammar on their cards. The only thing that ever change when one ability ends and another begins is line breaks.
- My turn.
- Play massacre girl and wipe the board. Still have 2 mana open and moment of craving in hand.
- at end of turn, my opponent plays spore swarm and created 3 saprolings.
- priority returns to me and I cast moment of craving on a saproling. It resolves and saproling dies.
Now, since massacre girl came into play this turn, her -1/-1 whenever a creature dies triggers and I kill all the saprolings. Right?
Slightly different scenario.
- My trurn. My opponent has two 3/3 on the field.
- Play massacre girl and triggered ability goes on the stack.
- Play Fungal Infection on one of the 3/3. It resolves and it becomes a 2/2 while I create a 1/1.
- Massacre girl's ability resolves and my 1/1 dies.
At this point, I get the extra trigger giving extra -1/-1 to every other creature, which kills the creature that was targeted by fungal infection and triggers the ability again killing the last creature my opponent's controls, right?
Also, all of this can happen only in the same turn massacre girl enters the battlefield, because it is all part of the same etb ability, right?
Just wanted to make sure.
Thanks in advance.
2. Here is an analysis of this modified scenario in detail:
EDIT: Clarification after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT: Correction after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jun. 27, 2021): Edit rule citations.
Yes. The duration of the delayed trigger ends in the cleanup step. since you kill the saproling in the end step, which is before the cleanup step, the delayed trigger goes off and kills the other saprolings, too.
Correct.
Correct as in that it only applies to the one turn, but no to your reasoing. Massacre Girl's trigger creates a dealyed trigger when it resolves. The delayed trigger has a duration ("this turn"), which ends in the cleanup step. So until and including the end step, every time a creature dies, the delayed trigger goes off.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Correction, the delayed trigger does not expire in the cleanup step. Delayed triggers are not until end of turn effects, so they will continue to apply until the turn is over.
I'd argue, that this falls under 512.2
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
https://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/3362/
Massacre Girl never stops being 4/4. Neither of her -1/-1 clauses affect herself.
405.6a improves this to a generic situation: Effects create delayed triggered abilities.
603.7 repeats this.
603.7b is the distressingly brief, "603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn.""
Under the heading 610, "One-shot effects" we see that sometimes a one-shot effect creates a delayed triggered ability:
"610.2. Some one-shot effects create a delayed triggered ability, which instructs a player to do something later in the game (usually at a specific time) rather than as the spell or ability that's creating the one-shot effect resolves. See rule 603.7."
The glossary on delayed triggered abilities points us to 603.7 also, which has seven subrules.
Clearly, a one-shot effect can't expire. But the status of delayed triggered abilities that have a stated duration is not explicit. They are created by effects. We can't infer that a particular delayed trigger was a one-shot or continuous effect, because the duration that an ability has is a quality of that ability (and of delayed triggered abilities uniquely), which will not have anything necessarily to do with a duration (if any) of the effect that created it.
Notice that 603.7b does not mention effects. The properties in 603.7[a-*] are analytical elements of the delayed triggered ability itself.
Even if the intent is for the duration of a delayed triggered ability to be equal to the duration of a continuous effect creating it, no part of the cleanup step cleans up "abilities", only effects. Delayed triggered abilities have to be specified that they -exist- for the duration of the continuous effect generating them, which is given as what is now called "the duration the delayed triggered ability has", and for that, 603.7b needs to be changed.
---
Kitachewsky's declaration doesn't help in the cases of Bonus Round and False Cure.
And it does not conform to the structure of current Delayed Triggered Ability rules in the above review.This declaration could conform to the proposal that all delayed triggered abilities are created by one-shot effects. But we still have Bonus Round and False Cure on the wayside. And 603.7b is still obviously inadequate.Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
On a side note: separate sentences in the text means nothing other than Wizards cares about the grammar on their cards. The only thing that ever change when one ability ends and another begins is line breaks.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)