A disagreement happened earlier tonight on zoom and we couldn't find any rules to verify, so asking here. In regards to a tapped Kalamax, the Stormsire, does the copy effect work if Kalamax is killed in response to their first instant?
For example, assume a tapped Kalamax, the Stormsire, owner casts a crop rotation and Kalamax's ability goes on the stack to try and copy the spell, but an opponent responds with a terminate on Kalamax.
Some of our party thought that since Kalamax was no longer in play, when it's ability to copy the spell checked to see if Kalamax was tapped, it would fail to find him thus not generate a copied spell.
The rules describing him at gatherer (here) do suggest a sort of awareness in terms of him being tapped vs untapped, say if an opponent casts an instant before Kalamax comes in to play or is tapped. But nothing specific to if he is killed off.
You don't get the copy, for the reason you stated: a dead Kalamax is not tapped (nor untapped).
IRRELEVANT 110.5d (…) cards not on the battlefield are neither tapped nor untapped, (…)
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. (…) it checks the stated condition again as it resolves.(…)
EDITED after comment 5 was posted: this situation falls under Last Known Information rule.
Kalamax WAS tapped when it left the battlefield, therefore the copy of the spell is created.
Not entirely sure but, if the owner already casted the spell, then it already checked if Kalamax was tapped when it was casted, and kalamax ability already triggers.
This seems to fall under Last Known Information. The trigger needs to know information about the source of the ability to determine a certain piece of information (whether it is tapped). That source is now gone. As we do in analogous situations, we look at the source's Last Known Information:
608.2g. If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it exists--or as it most recently existed--that does it, not the ability.
So, since the trigger requires information about the source, and the source is gone, it looks at it as it last existed on the battlefield to determined if it was tapped. If so, the trigger resolves as normal.
I still think you're looking at this wrong. Once the Crop rotation is cast, Kalamax ability goes to the stack (since its tapped) and then the other player can respond to it killing Kalamax, but its ability already triggered and its on the stack (Since it was tapped) and will resolve even if its dead.
701.4a To cast a spell is to take it from the zone it’s in (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. A player may cast a spell if they have priority. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.” 113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability.
I still think you're looking at this wrong. Once the Crop rotation is cast, Kalamax ability goes to the stack (since its tapped) and then the other player can respond to it killing Kalamax, but its ability already triggered and its on the stack (Since it was tapped) and will resolve even if its dead.
701.4a To cast a spell is to take it from the zone it’s in (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. A player may cast a spell if they have priority. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.” 113.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability.
The point is that the ability's "intervening 'if' clause" needs to be true both when the ability trigger, and when it resolves.
603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
So if an opponent responds to the trigger by untapping Kalamax somehow, then the ability already on the stack fails to resolve.
And wanting to know what happens if Kalamax is removed is a reasonable question. After all, if Kalamax isn't on the battlefield, it can't be considered tapped. But in this case apparently the Last Known Information concept applies, and the game looks back to see if Kalamax was tapped at the last moment it existed on the battlefield.
Oh yes, reading the example on the rule makes it all clear now. My bad didnt knew about the Interventing if clause, thanks for clarifiying!
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, “At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game.” Its controller’s life total is checked as that player’s upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn’t trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player’s life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.
For example, assume a tapped Kalamax, the Stormsire, owner casts a crop rotation and Kalamax's ability goes on the stack to try and copy the spell, but an opponent responds with a terminate on Kalamax.
Some of our party thought that since Kalamax was no longer in play, when it's ability to copy the spell checked to see if Kalamax was tapped, it would fail to find him thus not generate a copied spell.
The rules describing him at gatherer (here) do suggest a sort of awareness in terms of him being tapped vs untapped, say if an opponent casts an instant before Kalamax comes in to play or is tapped. But nothing specific to if he is killed off.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
You don't get the copy, for the reason you stated: a dead Kalamax is not tapped (nor untapped).110.5d (…) cards not on the battlefield are neither tapped nor untapped, (…)
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. (…) it checks the stated condition again as it resolves.(…)
EDITED after comment 5 was posted: this situation falls under Last Known Information rule.
Kalamax WAS tapped when it left the battlefield, therefore the copy of the spell is created.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
So, since the trigger requires information about the source, and the source is gone, it looks at it as it last existed on the battlefield to determined if it was tapped. If so, the trigger resolves as normal.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
The point is that the ability's "intervening 'if' clause" needs to be true both when the ability trigger, and when it resolves.
603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
So if an opponent responds to the trigger by untapping Kalamax somehow, then the ability already on the stack fails to resolve.
And wanting to know what happens if Kalamax is removed is a reasonable question. After all, if Kalamax isn't on the battlefield, it can't be considered tapped. But in this case apparently the Last Known Information concept applies, and the game looks back to see if Kalamax was tapped at the last moment it existed on the battlefield.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules