First of all, some background on my experience with this issue:
I've played in 2 Grand Prix before. The first time, My opponent was able to sneak a game loss out of my by counting my deck and finding 59 cards. Ever since then I've been more careful.
Flash forward a year and a half. I'm at my second Grand Prix, starting up a round and counting my deck, finding it again to be a card short. I call a judge over and ask him for my decklist to find the missing card. I then think that it's a land (wrong), "fix" my deck, and present it. The judge comes back and we figure out the real missing card (golgari signet), and he tells me I have 3 minutes to find one before I get a match loss.
So anyways, on to the question. If it's the beginning of a round at a major tournament and I find my deck a card short, what is the correct course of action to avoid receiving a game loss?
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Well, first of all, what the Judge told you is wrong.
You have a 10 min window to find a card and your opponent before you get a match loss.
Penalty
A tardiness penalty should not be given if a round started early and a player arrived at his or her seat before the originally announced start time. At lower RELs, the tournament organizer may elect to give players the amount of time allotted for the pregame procedure (3 minutes) to arrive before a game loss is awarded. At higher RELs, a game loss should be awarded as soon as the round begins. At any REL, if a player is not in his or her seat 10 minutes into the round, he or she should be awarded a second game loss. If a player does not arrive before the end of the round, he or she is dropped from the event.
Anyway, for you finding a card.
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In other words, you can't avoid the game loss, however, you can try to find the card and then win twice from your opponent.
Perhaps your opponent took it with him, happens a lot.
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You have a 10 min window to find a card and your opponent before you get a match loss. Anyway, for you finding a card.
Actually, you are not quoting from the proper penalty to assess. This is for Tardiness, which this is most assuredly not (the definition of the penalty is NOT applicable to a card missing from your deck). Instead, this is indeed more a situation involving an Illegal Main Deck:
Quote from Penalty Guidelines »
102. Deck Problem—Illegal Main Deck (Legal Decklist)
Definition This penalty applies to tournaments for which decklists are being used. If sideboards are being used and the sideboard is illegal but the sideboard list is legal, please refer to section 115 instead. This penalty applies to players who have misplaced cards from their decks, have cards from a previous opponent in their decks, or whose decks do not otherwise match their decklists.
Players are considered to have illegal decks when one of the following conditions is true (while the decklist still indicates a legal deck): • The main deck contains an illegal number of cards. • The main deck contains cards that are illegal for the format. • The main deck contains cards that would make the deck illegal because it would violate a game rule (such as the four-card limit rule in Magic games). • The contents of the main deck do not match the decklist.
Examples (A) A player in a Standard Magic tournament is playing with 59 cards in her deck when the minimum is 60. Her decklist indicates a legal deck with 60 cards. (B) A player in an Extended Magic tournament is playing with Dark Ritual (a banned card) in his deck. His decklist indicates a legal deck with no banned cards. (C) A player in a Magic tournament has a Pacifism in his deck from a previous opponent. His decklist indicates a legal deck.
Philosophy The decklist is the ultimate guide to a player's deck. If the decklist indicates a legal deck, but the actual contents of the deck do not match the decklist, the player should restore the deck to reflect the decklist.
Penalty At all RELs, the player should receive a game loss and then be instructed to make any changes necessary to make the contents of the deck match what is recorded on the decklist. If these changes cannot be completed within 5 minutes, the penalty should be upgraded to a match loss. The changes must be completed before the next match begins for the player to continue in the tournament.
Deck Problem—Illegal Main Deck (Legal Decklist)
All Levels
Game
At this point, you've actually presented your deck to your opponent, and the deck you presented was illegal. You were indeed there at the start of the round and called a judge; which was the proper thing to do. However, "fixing" your deck and then presenting it, before you verified what the card was... That's a problem. And once you've presented an illegal main deck, for good or for ill, then this is the appropriate penalty.
Even if you had waited for the judge, this is still an Illegal Main Deck. While you may have called the judge's attention to it, and are working to fix the problem, the deck is still illegal. This situation was handled mostly correct by the judge in question (the only thing that wasn't correct was the amount of time to find a replacement card; it's 5 minutes, not 3 unless he was accounting for the time it took to find the decklist).
But how do you fix it for the player involved? If he can't find the proper card, can he add a basic land and change his decklist accordingly?
No. Because he has submitted a legal decklist, the deck must match the decklist. It is the player's responsibility to find the card. If he cannot find the proper card in the 5 minute window, then the game loss will be upgraded to a match loss. And he's not going to be able to play if he can't fix the deck so that it's correct.
I'm trying to say that I've discovered the problem BEFORE I've presented my deck. Is it possible to avoid a game loss at this point?
Because apparently they are giving players two options:
1. Call a judge and get a game loss.
2. Present the illegal deck, hope the opponent doesn't discover the missing card, and fix the problem after the match.
It seems incredibly boneheaded to encourage players to cheat in this situation.
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2. Present the illegal deck, hope the opponent doesn't discover the missing card, and fix the problem after the match.
Knowingly and intentionally presenting an illegal deck to your opponent is cheating, and if you get caught (which can be done by something as simple as your opponent counting the number of cards in your library) you will probably be disqualified without prize.
1 is indeed the correct of the two options.
The best way to prevent all of this, of course, is to count your deck after every round to ensure you have all the cards you're supposed to have.
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I'm going to disagree with epeeguy here and say that tardiness is the issue at hand as this illegal deck has not been presented yet. If you haven't presented a deck you haven't started a game and you therefore can not have an illegal deck.
That being said, if you can find a replacement for the missing card and replace it before the time limit given for tardiness (usually three minutes), then you can avoid a game loss.
I'm going to disagree with epeeguy here and say that tardiness is the issue at hand as this illegal deck has not been presented yet. If you haven't presented a deck you haven't started a game and you therefore can not have an illegal deck.
While I can see that an argument could be made for it, I don't see this as fitting the definition given for Tardiness in the Penalty Guidelines. If you are actually sitting in your seat when the round has begun and simply haven't presented your deck, then you're not tardy. You're present, you just haven't handed your deck over. So, theoretically, if you want to make the argument that you simply haven't presented in the alloted time, this should be deemed to be Exceeding the Pregame Time Limit. Not that I would agree with that assessment.
if you shuffled your own deck in piles of 5, you WOULD have noticed that a card was missing. If your opponent saw that you did this, and if he would then count 59 cards, it might be hard to avoid cheating no ?
If you counted your deck somewhere else, your opponent may not notice it, and you could finish the tournament with that deck, or find a replacement after that match. While this is indeed cheating, it is easy to get away with it, and that is sad.
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While this is indeed cheating, it is easy to get away with it, and that is sad.
Truthfully, we just can't catch every single person who cheats. While a lot has improved for judge training to help detect this kind of stuff, there are things that unfortunately just slip by. The DCI does the best it can at preserving the integrity of sanctioned events, and ensures that any instances of cheating are dealt with appropriately. Hence why it's also good to have the players on our side helping us with this by taking some steps to ensure the integrity of the game.
I'm trying to say that I've discovered the problem BEFORE I've presented my deck. Is it possible to avoid a game loss at this point?
I was thinking about this a bit more, and there is potentially another option here. That is, to assess this as a Procedural Error: Major. This could be for one reason: We do have an example of "Losing your deck" as a Procedural Error: Severe. Measuring the loss of a single card against this example seems to indicate that this situation would be considerably less disruptive to the event than "Losing your deck". However, given the definition for Illegal Main Deck and even some of the examples given for a Procedural Error: Major, I'm still not convinced this is entirely appropriate either. But, I did want to raise that possibility.
It seems incredibly boneheaded to encourage players to cheat in this situation.
If a player makes a mistake at some point, knowing that it could result in them receiving a Game Loss, of course there is motive to cheat. Presuming that you are playing in a PTQ and you draw 4 cards off of a Compulsive Research and you realize it, but your opponent doesn't, what should you do? Call a judge and accept that you're going to be assessed for Drawing Extra Cards and penalized accordingly.
The DCI makes the presumption (assumption perhaps?) that a player will call a judge on themselves if they make an unintentional error, as opposed to just getting away with it. I agree, not everyone is that honest and some people will try to "cheat" as a result of this opportunity to avoid the penalty; hopefully the opponent notices and the judge will be able to determine the truth of the matter.
If we can't determine intent, then at the very least you will be penalized according to the normal penalty for an unintentional violation; in which case, there is a history of penalties kept by the DCI and that history can be tracked.
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I've played in 2 Grand Prix before. The first time, My opponent was able to sneak a game loss out of my by counting my deck and finding 59 cards. Ever since then I've been more careful.
Flash forward a year and a half. I'm at my second Grand Prix, starting up a round and counting my deck, finding it again to be a card short. I call a judge over and ask him for my decklist to find the missing card. I then think that it's a land (wrong), "fix" my deck, and present it. The judge comes back and we figure out the real missing card (golgari signet), and he tells me I have 3 minutes to find one before I get a match loss.
So anyways, on to the question. If it's the beginning of a round at a major tournament and I find my deck a card short, what is the correct course of action to avoid receiving a game loss?
Sales Thread
You have a 10 min window to find a card and your opponent before you get a match loss. Anyway, for you finding a card.
Beg, Borrow, or
StealBuy a replacment."I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...
very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Rules Q&A FAQ: Chances are good, your Questions have already been Answered.
Tag your cards: [card]CARDNAME[/card] = CARDNAME
Before you create a Rules Question thread; READ THIS
Freedom is not free.
Have you thanked a Veteran today?
Perhaps your opponent took it with him, happens a lot.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeActually, you are not quoting from the proper penalty to assess. This is for Tardiness, which this is most assuredly not (the definition of the penalty is NOT applicable to a card missing from your deck). Instead, this is indeed more a situation involving an Illegal Main Deck:
At this point, you've actually presented your deck to your opponent, and the deck you presented was illegal. You were indeed there at the start of the round and called a judge; which was the proper thing to do. However, "fixing" your deck and then presenting it, before you verified what the card was... That's a problem. And once you've presented an illegal main deck, for good or for ill, then this is the appropriate penalty.
Even if you had waited for the judge, this is still an Illegal Main Deck. While you may have called the judge's attention to it, and are working to fix the problem, the deck is still illegal. This situation was handled mostly correct by the judge in question (the only thing that wasn't correct was the amount of time to find a replacement card; it's 5 minutes, not 3 unless he was accounting for the time it took to find the decklist).
No. Because he has submitted a legal decklist, the deck must match the decklist. It is the player's responsibility to find the card. If he cannot find the proper card in the 5 minute window, then the game loss will be upgraded to a match loss. And he's not going to be able to play if he can't fix the deck so that it's correct.
Because apparently they are giving players two options:
1. Call a judge and get a game loss.
2. Present the illegal deck, hope the opponent doesn't discover the missing card, and fix the problem after the match.
It seems incredibly boneheaded to encourage players to cheat in this situation.
Sales Thread
Knowingly and intentionally presenting an illegal deck to your opponent is cheating, and if you get caught (which can be done by something as simple as your opponent counting the number of cards in your library) you will probably be disqualified without prize.
1 is indeed the correct of the two options.
The best way to prevent all of this, of course, is to count your deck after every round to ensure you have all the cards you're supposed to have.
That being said, if you can find a replacement for the missing card and replace it before the time limit given for tardiness (usually three minutes), then you can avoid a game loss.
While I can see that an argument could be made for it, I don't see this as fitting the definition given for Tardiness in the Penalty Guidelines. If you are actually sitting in your seat when the round has begun and simply haven't presented your deck, then you're not tardy. You're present, you just haven't handed your deck over. So, theoretically, if you want to make the argument that you simply haven't presented in the alloted time, this should be deemed to be Exceeding the Pregame Time Limit. Not that I would agree with that assessment.
If you counted your deck somewhere else, your opponent may not notice it, and you could finish the tournament with that deck, or find a replacement after that match. While this is indeed cheating, it is easy to get away with it, and that is sad.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeTruthfully, we just can't catch every single person who cheats. While a lot has improved for judge training to help detect this kind of stuff, there are things that unfortunately just slip by. The DCI does the best it can at preserving the integrity of sanctioned events, and ensures that any instances of cheating are dealt with appropriately. Hence why it's also good to have the players on our side helping us with this by taking some steps to ensure the integrity of the game.
I was thinking about this a bit more, and there is potentially another option here. That is, to assess this as a Procedural Error: Major. This could be for one reason: We do have an example of "Losing your deck" as a Procedural Error: Severe. Measuring the loss of a single card against this example seems to indicate that this situation would be considerably less disruptive to the event than "Losing your deck". However, given the definition for Illegal Main Deck and even some of the examples given for a Procedural Error: Major, I'm still not convinced this is entirely appropriate either. But, I did want to raise that possibility.
If a player makes a mistake at some point, knowing that it could result in them receiving a Game Loss, of course there is motive to cheat. Presuming that you are playing in a PTQ and you draw 4 cards off of a Compulsive Research and you realize it, but your opponent doesn't, what should you do? Call a judge and accept that you're going to be assessed for Drawing Extra Cards and penalized accordingly.
The DCI makes the presumption (assumption perhaps?) that a player will call a judge on themselves if they make an unintentional error, as opposed to just getting away with it. I agree, not everyone is that honest and some people will try to "cheat" as a result of this opportunity to avoid the penalty; hopefully the opponent notices and the judge will be able to determine the truth of the matter.
If we can't determine intent, then at the very least you will be penalized according to the normal penalty for an unintentional violation; in which case, there is a history of penalties kept by the DCI and that history can be tracked.