I resolve Chrome Mox and exile a card to it. A Pull from Eternity targeting the card I exiled with Chrome Mox resolves. I activate Chrome Mox.
Previously, the exiled (imprinted) card would simply no longer be imprinted and Chrome Mox would produce no mana. Since Imprint now has no meaning, the wording has changed. I can see one of three results from this:
1. "The exiled card" refers to the card as it existed in your hand, and the ability uses last known information to determine what colors that card was. You get one mana.
2. "The exiled card" refers to the card as it existed in the exile zone, and the ability uses last known information to determine what colors that card was. You get one mana.
3. "The exiled card" only ever refers to the card as it currently exists in the exile zone, and since the ability is linked, no last known information is involved. The card is not there anymore, so you get no mana.
EDIT: Oops, never actually asked a question :-P Which of the three results above is correct, if any?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Certified Level 1 Judge
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
606.2a. If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that exiles one or more cards, and another ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of the first ability.
Since the previously exiled card is no longer in the exile zone Chrome Mox can't find any card it exiled. You get no mana.
Nothing has changed. If there's nothing imprinted on the Mox, then it will not produce any mana. It doesn't remember what was imprinted before, it looks at what is currently imprinted. Since there's no card currently exiled by the Mox (since it's no longer in the exiled zone), no mana can be produced.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Level 2 Judge
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
The aforementioned 606.2a causes the Mox's ability to look for the card in the exile zone. It seems to me that 607.2g would cause it to find the card that used to be there.
Quote from Rule 607.2g »
If [an] effect requires information from a specific object, ... the effect uses the current information of that object if it hasn't changed zones; otherwise, the effect uses the last known information the object had before leaving the zone it was expected to be in.
(Emphasis mine)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Certified Level 1 Judge
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
It seems to me that 607.2g would cause it to find the card that used to be there.
Rule 607.2g doesn't apply, since it talks about finding an object during the resolution of an ability or spell. In your case, the object is already gone when the ability is activated. LKI can't be used at that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Rule 607.2g doesn't apply, since it talks about finding an object during the resolution of an ability or spell. In your case, the object is already gone when the ability is activated. LKI can't be used at that point.
The rule doesn't say "hasn't changed zones since the ability was activated", it just says "hasn't changed zones". This seems to be a handwave to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Certified Level 1 Judge
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
The rule doesn't say "hasn't changed zones since the ability was activated", it just says "hasn't changed zones". This seems to be a handwave to me.
That may be so, but let me ask you this rhetorical question: If the object didn't exist at the time the ability is activated, what exactly is the "specific object" whose information the game looks for when the ability resolves? To find any object at all, you'd need to use LKI at the moment the ability is activated, and there is no rule allowing you to do that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
That may be so, but let me ask you this rhetorical question: If the object didn't exist at the time the ability is activated, what exactly is the "specific object" whose information the game looks for when the ability resolves? To find any object at all, you'd need to use LKI at the moment the ability is activated, and there is no rule allowing you to do that.
The specific object is the card exiled by the first ability, as defined by 606.2a.
The rules make no mention of needing to use LKI at the moment the ability is activated, only when it resolves. An effect is looking for information about a specific object, and 606.2a tells us what that object is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Certified Level 1 Judge
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
606.2a. If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that exiles one or more cards, and another ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of the first ability.
Is the imprinted card still in the exile zone? No, therefore Chrome Mox doesn't find the object at all.
EDIT: Isochron Scepter has a ruling that should resolve all of this:
If the imprinted exiled card leaves the removed-from-game exile zone while the ability to make a copy is on the stack, then no copy will be made.
Since the Scepter can't make a copy of an imprinted card if that card is no longer in the exile zone why should Chrome Mox be able to find out the color of the no-long-imprinted card?
The card exiled by the first ability, as defined by 606.2a.
That's not a specific object. It's a formula for finding up to one object, but that formula already referred to a non-entity at the time the ability was activated. No object was specified, so you're looking at the LKI of (null).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
606.2a. If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that exiles one or more cards, and another ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of the first ability.
Is the imprinted card still in the exile zone? No, therefore Chrome Mox doesn't find the object at all.
I don't see why this rule precludes last known information from finding the card.
EDIT: Isochron Scepter has a ruling that should resolve all of this:
If the imprinted exiled card leaves the removed-from-game exile zone while the ability to make a copy is on the stack, then no copy will be made.
Since the Scepter can't make a copy of an imprinted card if that card is no longer in the exile zone why should Chrome Mox be able to find out the color of the no-long-imprinted card?
1. Rulings have been known to be wrong. 2. Correct rulings either have current rules backup or are handwaves. I'm not convinced this isn't a handwave.
That's not a specific object. It's a formula for finding up to one object, but that formula already referred to a non-entity at the time the ability was activated. No object was specified, so you're looking at the LKI of (null).
That doesn't make sense. By this defintion, you'd only ever request the last known information of (null).
That doesn't make sense. By this defintion, you'd only ever request the last known information of (null).
I disagree. If the ability did specify a specific object (i.e. an entity that actually WAS an object at some point during the lifetime of the ability, i.e. at any point between the ability being activated/triggered and the ability resolving), then you're looking for the LKI of that specific object if the object has moved since it was specified.
For example, "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may gain life equal to that creature's toughness" specifies a specific object, "that creature", at the time the ability triggered. If the object leaves the battlefield before the ability resolves, you have the identity of an object whose LKI you can query.
On the other hand, in "Add one mana of any of the exiled card's colors to your mana pool", "the exiled card" does not specify any object at all if there is no exiled card present at the time the ability is activated.
Correct rulings either have current rules backup or are handwaves. I'm not convinced this isn't a handwave.
It very well may be a handwave.
You know where to find Gavin if you'd like a more authoritative handwave
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
606.2a. If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that exiles one or more cards, and another ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards "exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of the first ability.
This rule does say that it only refers to cards in the exile zone, but you're parsing it differently than I think it was intended.
The first part of the rule talks about a link between the objects, and I think the second part is saying that when it says "exiled with [this object]" it is precluded from using a different card in the exile zone, not that the card has to actually be in the exiled zone.
If this is the only place that it says that it is only refering "to cards in the exiled zone..." then it needs to be stated more specifically, because that has context that changes what it means.
I think the second part is saying that when it says "exiled with [this object]" it is precluded from using a different card in the exile zone, not that the card has to actually be in the exiled zone.
That interpretation is ludicrous. The phrase "cards in the exile zone" unambiguously refers to cards that are in the exile zone. The fact that you're looking at a smaller subset of that set doesn't mean that you get to look at cards outside that set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Oh? I untap with my Djinn in play? Then I'll cast High Tide 5 times, let the copies resolve, cast Remand 3 times, the first and second targetting the original High Tide, and the third targetting the first Remand. After the stack empties, I'll cast a Turnabout with 1 replicate, and triple-remand again. Net Effect: Draw 4 cards, Islands all produce 4 extra blue, lands untapped. Repeat until I draw Vision Charm and proceed to deck several hundred players.
> I resolve Chrome Mox and exile a card to it. A Pull from Eternity targeting
> the card I exiled with Chrome Mox resolves. I activate Chrome Mox.
Looks like I forgot to answer this one...
The Chrome Mox won't generate any colour of mana when tapped because
there is no exiled card. We can't use LKI to determine the properties
of the card previously exiled, because the resolving ability isn't
asking for properties of that card... it's asking for the identity of
the exiled card, to which the answer is "There is no imprinted card."
The term exiled (like the term imprinted before it, see also: Panoptic
Mirror) is used in the present tense.
--
Gavin Duggan, L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Previously, the exiled (imprinted) card would simply no longer be imprinted and Chrome Mox would produce no mana. Since Imprint now has no meaning, the wording has changed. I can see one of three results from this:
1. "The exiled card" refers to the card as it existed in your hand, and the ability uses last known information to determine what colors that card was. You get one mana.
2. "The exiled card" refers to the card as it existed in the exile zone, and the ability uses last known information to determine what colors that card was. You get one mana.
3. "The exiled card" only ever refers to the card as it currently exists in the exile zone, and since the ability is linked, no last known information is involved. The card is not there anymore, so you get no mana.
EDIT: Oops, never actually asked a question :-P Which of the three results above is correct, if any?
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Since the previously exiled card is no longer in the exile zone Chrome Mox can't find any card it exiled. You get no mana.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
EDIT: I would suppose it does not, since the rule explicitly talks about "an activated or triggered ability".
EDIT EDIT: Then again, there is a rule that reads exactly the same way, except that it refers to replacement effects.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
The aforementioned 606.2a causes the Mox's ability to look for the card in the exile zone. It seems to me that 607.2g would cause it to find the card that used to be there.
(Emphasis mine)
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Rule 607.2g doesn't apply, since it talks about finding an object during the resolution of an ability or spell. In your case, the object is already gone when the ability is activated. LKI can't be used at that point.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
The rule doesn't say "hasn't changed zones since the ability was activated", it just says "hasn't changed zones". This seems to be a handwave to me.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
That may be so, but let me ask you this rhetorical question: If the object didn't exist at the time the ability is activated, what exactly is the "specific object" whose information the game looks for when the ability resolves? To find any object at all, you'd need to use LKI at the moment the ability is activated, and there is no rule allowing you to do that.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
The specific object is the card exiled by the first ability, as defined by 606.2a.
The rules make no mention of needing to use LKI at the moment the ability is activated, only when it resolves. An effect is looking for information about a specific object, and 606.2a tells us what that object is.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Is the imprinted card still in the exile zone? No, therefore Chrome Mox doesn't find the object at all.
EDIT: Isochron Scepter has a ruling that should resolve all of this:
Since the Scepter can't make a copy of an imprinted card if that card is no longer in the exile zone why should Chrome Mox be able to find out the color of the no-long-imprinted card?
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
That's not a specific object. It's a formula for finding up to one object, but that formula already referred to a non-entity at the time the ability was activated. No object was specified, so you're looking at the LKI of (null).
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
I don't see why this rule precludes last known information from finding the card.
1. Rulings have been known to be wrong. 2. Correct rulings either have current rules backup or are handwaves. I'm not convinced this isn't a handwave.
EDIT:
That doesn't make sense. By this defintion, you'd only ever request the last known information of (null).
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
I disagree. If the ability did specify a specific object (i.e. an entity that actually WAS an object at some point during the lifetime of the ability, i.e. at any point between the ability being activated/triggered and the ability resolving), then you're looking for the LKI of that specific object if the object has moved since it was specified.
For example, "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you may gain life equal to that creature's toughness" specifies a specific object, "that creature", at the time the ability triggered. If the object leaves the battlefield before the ability resolves, you have the identity of an object whose LKI you can query.
On the other hand, in "Add one mana of any of the exiled card's colors to your mana pool", "the exiled card" does not specify any object at all if there is no exiled card present at the time the ability is activated.
It very well may be a handwave.
You know where to find Gavin if you'd like a more authoritative handwave
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Because the card isn't in the exile zone anymore! Per the linked abilities rules the second ability requires the card to be in the exile zone.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
Magic CompRules
Scry Rollover Popups for Google Chrome
The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
This rule does say that it only refers to cards in the exile zone, but you're parsing it differently than I think it was intended.
The first part of the rule talks about a link between the objects, and I think the second part is saying that when it says "exiled with [this object]" it is precluded from using a different card in the exile zone, not that the card has to actually be in the exiled zone.
If this is the only place that it says that it is only refering "to cards in the exiled zone..." then it needs to be stated more specifically, because that has context that changes what it means.
--Lurker Spikey
That interpretation is ludicrous. The phrase "cards in the exile zone" unambiguously refers to cards that are in the exile zone. The fact that you're looking at a smaller subset of that set doesn't mean that you get to look at cards outside that set.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.