The rule does not mention that "paying life is done by the player paying life losing that much life" -- it looks as though it directly modifies the player's life total. Does this mean that paying life doesn't "count as" losing life?
Specifically, will cards like Tainted Sigil not count life payment?
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
The rule does not mention that "paying life is done by the player paying life losing that much life" -- it looks as though it directly modifies the player's life total. Does this mean that paying life doesn't "count as" losing life?
Specifically, will cards like Tainted Sigil not count life payment?
Anytime your life total changes the appropriate amount of life is lost or gained to make it so.
If you are at 20 life and pay 1 life, you lost 1 life.
If you are at 10 life and your life total is set to 20, you gained 10 life.
If you are at 20 life and your life total is set to 10, you lost 10 life.
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any card that directly modifies a health total will count toward effects that are triggered by life gain or loss.
For example, Sorin Markov's -3 ability directly modifies an opponents health from X to 10. If the opponent is above 10, they have lost life equal to X-10. If the opponent is below 10, they have gained life equal to 10-X.
116.3b. Paying life is done by subtracting the indicated amount of life from a player's life total. (Players can always pay 0 life.)
117.3. If an effect causes a player to gain life or lose life, that player's life total is adjusted accordingly.
It seems that the rules define it like this:
A causes C
B causes C
so it would be logically incorrect to say that A = B
This may be an oversight in the rules because it seems to me that a payment of life should equal life loss, but the rules do not explicitly state that anywhere I can find. I'll search the [O]fficial rulings...
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
If you are at 10 life and your life total is set to 20, you gained 10 life.
If you are at 20 life and your life total is set to 10, you lost 10 life.
There is specific rules support for these two statements:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
117.5. If an effect sets a player's life total to a specific number, the player gains or loses the necessary amount of life to end up with the new total.
However, I don't see any evidence that paying life results in life loss, only that it results in the same thing as life loss:
Losing life in this case has no special rules meaning, you use the english meanings of the sentence. So, when paying life, because you had 20 life before, and only 15 life afterwards, you have lost 5 life.
Disagree; see rule 117.3 quoted above, which explicitly defines losing life (and explicitly defines what happens when an effect sets a life total to be that the player loses the appropriate amount of life, but says nothing of the sort about paying life).
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Disagree; see rule 117.3 quoted above, which explicitly defines losing life (and explicitly defines what happens when an effect sets a life total to be that the player loses the appropriate amount of life, but says nothing of the sort about paying life).
Common sense tells you if your life total has gone from 20 to 15 you have lost life. There doesn't need to be a specific rules entry for this.
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"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable." -Nafai, The Ships of Earth
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
Ok, then I will have to agree with you. Seems like the rules don't count life-payment as loss of life.
Personally I don't think that is the way it is meant to work.
I agree, I think it's a slight oversight in the rules because I do believe it should work that way.
A change in life total should count as a gain or loss of life.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
It seems to me that the M10 rewrite inadvertently introduced a hole in the rules. Pre-M10, this question was easy to answer:
Life, Life Total
Life total is a sort of score. Each player starts the game with 20 life. Any increase in a player's life total is considered to be gaining life. Any decrease in a player's life total is considered to be losing life. A player whose life total drops to 0 or less loses. This is a state-based effect; see rule 420.5. See also rule 215, "Life."
Oddly enough, the bolded sentence has no equivalent since M10:
Life, Life Total
Each player has an amount of "life," represented by that player's "life total." Life may be gained or lost. See rule 117, "Life."
The intention clearly is that a life payment is seen by the game as a loss of life event, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the current comprehensive rules from which this follows in an obvious way.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Ok, then I will have to agree with you. Seems like the rules don't count life-payment as loss of life.
Personally I don't think that is the way it is meant to work.
The intention clearly is that a life payment is seen by the game as a loss of life event, but there doesn't seem to be anything in the current comprehensive rules from which this follows in an obvious way.
I'd agree with that as well This wouldn't be the first time that the rules say something other than what they want to say.
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Yes, it counts as loss of life, even according to "DA RULES!"
In the Comp Rules glossary:
Life, Life Total
Each player has an amount of "life," represented by that player's "life total." Life may be gained or lost. See rule 117, "Life."
Logically, adding to or subtracting from the life total counts as gaining or losing life, since the only thing that can modify the life total, as per the rules, is some form of life loss or life gain. Forms of life loss, obviously, would include damage, payment of life, and loss of life.
Yes, it counts as loss of life, even according to "DA RULES!"
In the Comp Rules glossary:
Life, Life Total
Each player has an amount of "life," represented by that player's "life total." Life may be gained or lost. See rule 117, "Life."
Logically, adding to or subtracting from the life total counts as gaining or losing life, since the only thing that can modify the life total, as per the rules, is some form of life loss or life gain. Forms of life loss, obviously, would include damage, payment of life, and loss of life.
That's not my interpretation of that entry. "Logically", gaining or losing life results in adding to or subtracting from a life total, since that's what the "Life" section of the rules says. The entry you quoted simply states that life "may be" gained or lost; it does not state what results in a gain or loss.
I'm not saying that your interpretation is necessarily wrong, but it is an interpretation nonetheless, and the entry is ambiguous.
I think I'll go to an [O] list for this and come back with the response.
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Really, people. Is this actually confusing you? Or are you just trying to say "zomg we found a problem with the rules yay!"? If you think you found a problem, report it as a problem, not as "we have this question and the rules can't help us!"
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DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
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The rule does not mention that "paying life is done by the player paying life losing that much life" -- it looks as though it directly modifies the player's life total. Does this mean that paying life doesn't "count as" losing life?
Specifically, will cards like Tainted Sigil not count life payment?
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Anytime your life total changes the appropriate amount of life is lost or gained to make it so.
If you are at 20 life and pay 1 life, you lost 1 life.
If you are at 10 life and your life total is set to 20, you gained 10 life.
If you are at 20 life and your life total is set to 10, you lost 10 life.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
For example, Sorin Markov's -3 ability directly modifies an opponents health from X to 10. If the opponent is above 10, they have lost life equal to X-10. If the opponent is below 10, they have gained life equal to 10-X.
117.3. If an effect causes a player to gain life or lose life, that player's life total is adjusted accordingly.
It seems that the rules define it like this:
A causes C
B causes C
so it would be logically incorrect to say that A = B
This may be an oversight in the rules because it seems to me that a payment of life should equal life loss, but the rules do not explicitly state that anywhere I can find. I'll search the [O]fficial rulings...
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There is specific rules support for these two statements:
However, I don't see any evidence that paying life results in life loss, only that it results in the same thing as life loss:
EDIT:
This is how it appears to me.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Disagree; see rule 117.3 quoted above, which explicitly defines losing life (and explicitly defines what happens when an effect sets a life total to be that the player loses the appropriate amount of life, but says nothing of the sort about paying life).
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Common sense tells you if your life total has gone from 20 to 15 you have lost life. There doesn't need to be a specific rules entry for this.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
I agree, I think it's a slight oversight in the rules because I do believe it should work that way.
A change in life total should count as a gain or loss of life.
Paging Condor...
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
I'd agree with that as well This wouldn't be the first time that the rules say something other than what they want to say.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Since the rules and rulings do not currently explicitly define this it would be at the Head Judge's discretion.
Most likely it would be payment of life results in loss of life.
Ever wanted to know what guidelines Judges use to make rulings? Find out at the DCI Document Center.
You can also find the latest Comprehensive Rules here.
In the Comp Rules glossary:
Life, Life Total
Each player has an amount of "life," represented by that player's "life total." Life may be gained or lost. See rule 117, "Life."
Logically, adding to or subtracting from the life total counts as gaining or losing life, since the only thing that can modify the life total, as per the rules, is some form of life loss or life gain. Forms of life loss, obviously, would include damage, payment of life, and loss of life.
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That's not my interpretation of that entry. "Logically", gaining or losing life results in adding to or subtracting from a life total, since that's what the "Life" section of the rules says. The entry you quoted simply states that life "may be" gained or lost; it does not state what results in a gain or loss.
I'm not saying that your interpretation is necessarily wrong, but it is an interpretation nonetheless, and the entry is ambiguous.
I think I'll go to an [O] list for this and come back with the response.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Really, people. Is this actually confusing you? Or are you just trying to say "zomg we found a problem with the rules yay!"? If you think you found a problem, report it as a problem, not as "we have this question and the rules can't help us!"
Thread locked.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.