106.9. To "tap a permanent for mana" is to activate a mana ability of that permanent that includes the {T} symbol in its activation cost.
603.6d. ... Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward.
If I activate Geothermal Crevice's third ability while Heartbeat of Spring is on the battlefield, will Heartbeat of Spring's ability trigger? It seems to me that it can't, since after the event has occurred, there is no land that was tapped for mana, and "tapped for mana" triggers are not triggers that look back in time.
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The triggered mana ability is on Heartbeat of Spring, not the land, so it does not need to be covered by 603.6d to work in this case. It only cares that a mana ability with a tap symbol in its cost was activated from a land source, and does not care about wheter the source is still there or not. You'll get the extra mana.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
The game will still see that Geothermal Crevice was tapped for a mana ability so Heartbeat of spring will still trigger and you will get the chance to add G or B to your manapool
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608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that’s become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a.
Right, and that's my thought as well. But it also seems like it's possible to interpret the rules in a manner that triggered abilities trigger events are exempt from that rule, given that they feel the need to write the look-back rule at all. Just checking to see which interpretation is the accepted one
EDIT: Actually, I notice that the last-known information specifically mentions "effect". Trigger conditions aren't effects, are they?
The triggered mana ability is on Heartbeat of Spring, not the land, so it does not need to be covered by 603.6d to work in this case. It only cares that a mana ability with a tap symbol in its cost was activated from a land source, and does not care about wheter the source is still there or not. You'll get the extra mana.
"Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield", for example, needs to be covered by the look-back rule, despite that triggered ability potentially not being printed on the object leaving the battlefield. Is the Heartbeat/Crevice situation not similar?
Right, and that's my thought as well. But it also seems like it's possible to interpret the rules in a manner that triggered abilities trigger events are exempt from that rule, given that they feel the need to write the look-back rule at all. Just checking to see which interpretation is the accepted one
EDIT: Actually, I notice that the last-known information specifically mentions "effect". Trigger conditions aren't effects, are they?
Honestly, my first thought was "wow, Heartbeat of Spring needs some rulings help"
Based on the CR quotes already brought up, though, it seems that the sacrifice of the Crevice doesn't matter -- the Crevice's ability is obviously a mana ability, and includes the tap symbol in its activation cost, so it qualifies as "tapping a land for mana" and will trigger Heartbeat of Spring's ability. Then the triggered ability will use last known information as it resolves.
Short of something showing up in Oracle, though, or posting it over to the rules list, I don't think there's a good definitive answer here.
the Crevice's ability is obviously a mana ability, and includes the tap symbol in its activation cost, so it qualifies as "tapping a land for mana" and will trigger Heartbeat of Spring's ability. Then the triggered ability will use last known information as it resolves.
This is where my logic wants to go as well; just wanted to make sure it was correct.
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Its covered by the two rules quoted below. Georthermal crevice is tapped for mana Heartbeat of spring sees it and when you have finished activating the crevice's abiltiy the heartbeat trigger would go on the stack if it wasn't an mana ability.
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603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 115, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
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The triggered mana ability is on Heartbeat of Spring, not the land, so it does not need to be covered by 603.6d to work in this case. It only cares that a mana ability with a tap symbol in its cost was activated from a land source, and does not care about wheter the source is still there or not. You'll get the extra mana.
"Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield", for example, needs to be covered by the look-back rule, despite that triggered ability potentially not being printed on the object leaving the battlefield. Is the Heartbeat/Crevice situation not similar?
I don't think it is similar, no. 603.6d covers cards such as Fecundity for the cases where they leave the battlefield at the same time as a permanent that can trigger their ability; what we're discussing here is different.
Let's imagine a land which mana ability would be ":symtap:, sacrifice an enchantment : add 1 to your mana pool" or ":symtap:, sacrifice THIS and an enchantment : add 1 to your mana pool", which gives us the same result. If you sacrifice Heartbeat of Spring this way, it is obvious that it won't trigger, because at the time the mana ability of the land is considered activated, Heartbeat is not on the battlefield anymore and its triggered ability doesn't exist.
However, in the actual case we're discussing here, the triggered ability of Heartbeat of Spring exists when its trigger condition happens (an activated ability with in its cost was activated from a land source). It seems that what you're wondering is if the ability would not trigger because of the non-appearance of the land object. But consider this : that Heartbeat of Spring's ability isn't covered by 603.6g doesn't mean that its functionning is opposed to it. There is no clause that says "other types of triggered abilities cannot trigger based to the appearance of objects prior to the event".
I think there are flaws in my explanation, but I don't see for now how to present the logic of this better, can some gurus help?
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
It is not similar because Heartbeat of Spring does not leave the battlefield at the same time as the Crevice is sacrificied to pay for the cost. 603.6d covers cards such as Fecundity for the cases where they leave the battlefield at the same time as a permanent that can trigger their ability.
You're right on this, and if I had actually read all of the rule I quoted, I'd have realized it:
... However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be on the battlefield, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. ...
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Heartbeat of Spring will trigger because there are two events in the payment of the cost of Geothermal Crevice's mana ability; tapping and sacrificing the Crevice are (from the point of view of actions required) two separate events. <snip>
This seems irrelevant to me, since "tap a land for mana" isn't defined to be the actual act of tapping the land, but rather activating an ability, defined by 106.9 as quoted in my OP. Putting "tap a land for mana" in a trigger condition will then cause that ability to trigger after the ability has finished being played, as per:
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a-g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time.
and:
602.2b The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2b-h. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to casting a spell.
Nevertheless, my question has been satisfactorily answered by MadMageQc.
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This seems irrelevant to me, since "tap a land for mana" isn't defined to be the actual act of tapping the land, but rather activating an ability. Putting "tap a land for mana" in a trigger condition will then cause that ability to trigger after the ability has finished being played, as per:
and:
Nevertheless, I believe MadMageQc has provided a satisfactory answer to my original question.
You're incorrect. It is very relevant, considering that when you tap a land for mana, whether or not you sacrifice the land as well, you still tapped the land for mana.
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Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Right, and that's my thought as well. But it also seems like it's possible to interpret the rules in a manner that triggered abilities trigger events are exempt from that rule, given that they feel the need to write the look-back rule at all. Just checking to see which interpretation is the accepted one
EDIT: Actually, I notice that the last-known information specifically mentions "effect". Trigger conditions aren't effects, are they?
"Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield", for example, needs to be covered by the look-back rule, despite that triggered ability potentially not being printed on the object leaving the battlefield. Is the Heartbeat/Crevice situation not similar?
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Honestly, my first thought was "wow, Heartbeat of Spring needs some rulings help"
Based on the CR quotes already brought up, though, it seems that the sacrifice of the Crevice doesn't matter -- the Crevice's ability is obviously a mana ability, and includes the tap symbol in its activation cost, so it qualifies as "tapping a land for mana" and will trigger Heartbeat of Spring's ability. Then the triggered ability will use last known information as it resolves.
Short of something showing up in Oracle, though, or posting it over to the rules list, I don't think there's a good definitive answer here.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
This is where my logic wants to go as well; just wanted to make sure it was correct.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Let's imagine a land which mana ability would be ":symtap:, sacrifice an enchantment : add 1 to your mana pool" or ":symtap:, sacrifice THIS and an enchantment : add 1 to your mana pool", which gives us the same result. If you sacrifice Heartbeat of Spring this way, it is obvious that it won't trigger, because at the time the mana ability of the land is considered activated, Heartbeat is not on the battlefield anymore and its triggered ability doesn't exist.
However, in the actual case we're discussing here, the triggered ability of Heartbeat of Spring exists when its trigger condition happens (an activated ability with in its cost was activated from a land source). It seems that what you're wondering is if the ability would not trigger because of the non-appearance of the land object. But consider this : that Heartbeat of Spring's ability isn't covered by 603.6g doesn't mean that its functionning is opposed to it. There is no clause that says "other types of triggered abilities cannot trigger based to the appearance of objects prior to the event".
I think there are flaws in my explanation, but I don't see for now how to present the logic of this better, can some gurus help?
You're right on this, and if I had actually read all of the rule I quoted, I'd have realized it:
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
This seems irrelevant to me, since "tap a land for mana" isn't defined to be the actual act of tapping the land, but rather activating an ability, defined by 106.9 as quoted in my OP. Putting "tap a land for mana" in a trigger condition will then cause that ability to trigger after the ability has finished being played, as per:
and:
Nevertheless, my question has been satisfactorily answered by MadMageQc.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
You're incorrect. It is very relevant, considering that when you tap a land for mana, whether or not you sacrifice the land as well, you still tapped the land for mana.
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