I control Sen Triplets. If I play a Vesuva out of my opponent's hand, who chooses whether to copy a land and which land to copy?
My guess would be that, since the replacement effect needs to exist before an event in order to modify it, in this situation, the replacement effect is being generated by Vesuva's ability while it's still in my opponent's hand. Therefore, the "you" on the ability refers to my opponent just long enough for him to make those two choices, then the land enters the battlefield under my control. Is this right?
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I control Sen Triplets. If I play a Vesuva out of my opponent's hand, who chooses whether to copy a land and which land to copy?
AFAIK, it's largely covered by the following rule (the wording in the middle of the section is a bit disconcerting, but since this is about how a replacement effect is applied to the object changing zones, it should be the owner that chooses):
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Since Vesuva doesn't have a controller (it's in the player's hand), the owner chooses.
But surely as you (the controller of the triplets) play it out of their hand, you're the controller, so you choose what land to have it enter as.
That works if the card were played as a spell. In that case, since you cast the spell, you control the spell. So, you'd make the choice for the object as it entered the battlefield.
The problem with this situation, is that Vesuva is played as a land. So, it's either in its owner's hand or its on the battlefield under your control. And, AFAIK, you'd evaluate the object before it changed zones and apply the replacement effect accordingly. Since its in its owner's hand, the owner would choice.
That being said, and considering the wording of CR 614.12 and the example provided, I don't know that it's that clear. The example for that situation discusses the controller of the token making a choice for the object as it is put onto the battlefield. So, you might simply evaluate as it would exist on the battlefield, and the controller of the object on the battlefield would make the choice.
Truthfully, this is the kind of situation I would probably refer to MTG-Rules. It strikes me as a bit of a corner area in the rules.
AFAIK, it's largely covered by the following rule (the wording in the middle of the section is a bit disconcerting, but since this is about how a replacement effect is applied to the object changing zones, it should be the owner that chooses):
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Since Vesuva doesn't have a controller (it's in the player's hand), the owner chooses.
Why? This rule doesn't say that.
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Notice how the part in green begins with an "if", which is unsatisfied.
EDIT: Wow. I meant to put... something in this space of the post originally. But I don't remember what.
Mainly, something to make it more clear I didn't really believe the following paragraph. Guh.
epeeguy, from 614.12, I could say that, because Vesuva would exist on the battlefield under the control of Sen Triplets' controller, "how" that replacement effect applies is determined by considering the fact that Vesuva would be, as said, a permanent under the control of that player.
The example of the Voice of All token lends some support.
With some dancing, there is 109.5:
109.5. The words “you” and “your” on an object refer to the object’s controller, its would-be controller (if a player is attempting to cast or activate it), or its owner (if it has no controller). For a static ability, this is the current controller of the object it’s on. For an activated ability, this is the player who activated the ability. For a triggered ability, this is the controller of the object when the ability triggered, unless it’s a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
This appears clear-cut.
Perhaps a note to MTG-Rules would be good anyway, about the utility of the examples for 614.12.
epeeguy, from 614.12, I could say that, because Vesuva would exist on the battlefield under the control of Sen Triplets' controller, "how" that replacement effect applies is determined by considering the fact that Vesuva would be, as said, a permanent under the control of that player.
See, that would produce the "intuitive" result, but I see more support for the owner choosing. The replacement effect is being generated by the Vesuva in the opponent's hand, since it has to exist before the event in question. The game knows it's being put onto the battlefield, but that doesn't change where the effect is coming from.
The example of the Voice of All token lends some support.
That's very different, since the token has no controller or owner before it enters the battlefield.
My guess would be that, since the replacement effect needs to exist before an event in order to modify it, in this situation, the replacement effect is being generated by Vesuva's ability while it's still in my opponent's hand. Therefore, the "you" on the ability refers to my opponent just long enough for him to make those two choices, then the land enters the battlefield under my control. Is this right?
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
AFAIK, it's largely covered by the following rule (the wording in the middle of the section is a bit disconcerting, but since this is about how a replacement effect is applied to the object changing zones, it should be the owner that chooses):
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Since Vesuva doesn't have a controller (it's in the player's hand), the owner chooses.
That works if the card were played as a spell. In that case, since you cast the spell, you control the spell. So, you'd make the choice for the object as it entered the battlefield.
The problem with this situation, is that Vesuva is played as a land. So, it's either in its owner's hand or its on the battlefield under your control. And, AFAIK, you'd evaluate the object before it changed zones and apply the replacement effect accordingly. Since its in its owner's hand, the owner would choice.
That being said, and considering the wording of CR 614.12 and the example provided, I don't know that it's that clear. The example for that situation discusses the controller of the token making a choice for the object as it is put onto the battlefield. So, you might simply evaluate as it would exist on the battlefield, and the controller of the object on the battlefield would make the choice.
Truthfully, this is the kind of situation I would probably refer to MTG-Rules. It strikes me as a bit of a corner area in the rules.
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Why? This rule doesn't say that.
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Notice how the part in green begins with an "if", which is unsatisfied.
EDIT: Wow. I meant to put... something in this space of the post originally. But I don't remember what.
Mainly, something to make it more clear I didn't really believe the following paragraph. Guh.
epeeguy, from 614.12, I could say that, because Vesuva would exist on the battlefield under the control of Sen Triplets' controller, "how" that replacement effect applies is determined by considering the fact that Vesuva would be, as said, a permanent under the control of that player.
The example of the Voice of All token lends some support.
With some dancing, there is 109.5:
This appears clear-cut.
Perhaps a note to MTG-Rules would be good anyway, about the utility of the examples for 614.12.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
See, that would produce the "intuitive" result, but I see more support for the owner choosing. The replacement effect is being generated by the Vesuva in the opponent's hand, since it has to exist before the event in question. The game knows it's being put onto the battlefield, but that doesn't change where the effect is coming from.
That's very different, since the token has no controller or owner before it enters the battlefield.
Done
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.