My battlefield: Just lands (to make it simpler)
My opponents battliefield: Lands, */* Token (from Voice of Resurgence), Noble Hierarch, Loxodon Smiter and 2 Qasali Pridemages. Just random stuff. So the token is 5/5. Notice that there is No voice, just its token.
I cast Languish and pass priority. My opponent passes it back. Languish resolves. What happens?
It's my understanding that everything dies, and I want it to work like that. BUT, I can't stop thinking that token already got -4/-4 and survived, and then became a 1/1. So I don't understand how it keeps getting -4/-4 after it has been applied.
I mean, when Languish resolves the token is 5/5, gets -4/-4 until end of turn (and all other creatures too). When stated based actions check the Token is 1/1 and all other creatures are put into the graveyard. Now he becomes a 1/1, but it has already survived the -4/-4. Does this work the same as damage? does the -X/-X get marked on the creature?
I hope I have been clear enough.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
As Languish resolves = all creatures get -4/-4 and SBA send four creatures (except the token) to the graveyard.
Then SBA will be checked again and send the token to graveyard.
Edit , "get -4/-4" is not "damage" so it doesn't "mark" on creature.
It is continuous effect that affect all 5 creatures on the field as Languish resolves.
This continuous effect is always applied on these five creatures until end of turn in "layer system".
The continuous effect that affect creature's P/T is applied in layer 7.
Voice's ability that set the token's P/T (equal to the number of creatures you control) is applied in layer 7a.
Langiush's effect is applied in layer 7c.
So to determine the token's P/T , you have to calculate in these layers.
As Languish resolves , the token's P/T = 5/5(7a)-4/4(7c) = 1/1.
Then after SBA checking , the token's P/T = 1/1(7a) - 4/4(7c) = -3/-3. So SBA will check again and send it to graveyard.
My battlefield: Just lands (to make it simpler)
My opponents battliefield: Lands, */* Token (from Voice of Resurgence), Noble Hierarch, Loxodon Smiter and 2 Qasali Pridemages. Just random stuff. So the token is 5/5. Notice that there is No voice, just its token.
I cast Languish and pass priority. My opponent passes it back. Languish resolves. What happens?
It's my understanding that everything dies, and I want it to work like that. BUT, I can't stop thinking that token already got -4/-4 and survived, and then became a 1/1. So I don't understand how it keeps getting -4/-4 after it has been applied.
I mean, when Languish resolves the token is 5/5, gets -4/-4 until end of turn (and all other creatures too). When stated based actions check the Token is 1/1 and all other creatures are put into the graveyard. Now he becomes a 1/1, but it has already survived the -4/-4. Does this work the same as damage? does the -X/-X get marked on the creature?
I hope I have been clear enough.
After the other creatures have died, since the token is now alone, its characteristic-defining ability defines its base power/toughness as 1/1. Languish's -4/-4 effect, which is still affecting it (no reason it would end, the token is one of the creatures that were there when Languish resolved, and the turn is not over) applies over that base power/toughness, making it -3/-3 total. It dies for having 0 or less toughness. Note that, while that technically happens after the other creatures have died, there is no opportunity to do anything in between.
You don't need to think of the -X/-X effect as being "marked". Languish says clearly that it lasts until end of turn.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
This of it this way.
All creatures get the -4/-4 buff, the token becomes a 1/1 and all other creatures are reduced too or below 0 toughness. State is then checked again and the token turns into a 1/1 with a -4/-4 buff which kills it. It is easier to think of the buff lasting until the end of turn and reducing the natural size of the card as dictated by */* or the actual number indicating power and toughness.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Disclaimer: As per the norm, I am aware some people will disagree with my opinion and I acknowledge there is a possibility that my opinion is wrong. The above post is simply my musings on what I view to be the most likely scenario given the information that is available and I am aware of at the time of typing! Peace.
My battlefield: Just lands (to make it simpler)
My opponents battliefield: Lands, */* Token (from Voice of Resurgence), Noble Hierarch, Loxodon Smiter and 2 Qasali Pridemages. Just random stuff. So the token is 5/5. Notice that there is No voice, just its token.
I cast Languish and pass priority. My opponent passes it back. Languish resolves. What happens?
It's my understanding that everything dies, and I want it to work like that. BUT, I can't stop thinking that token already got -4/-4 and survived, and then became a 1/1. So I don't understand how it keeps getting -4/-4 after it has been applied.
I mean, when Languish resolves the token is 5/5, gets -4/-4 until end of turn (and all other creatures too). When stated based actions check the Token is 1/1 and all other creatures are put into the graveyard. Now he becomes a 1/1, but it has already survived the -4/-4. Does this work the same as damage? does the -X/-X get marked on the creature?
I hope I have been clear enough.
Then SBA will be checked again and send the token to graveyard.
Edit , "get -4/-4" is not "damage" so it doesn't "mark" on creature.
It is continuous effect that affect all 5 creatures on the field as Languish resolves.
This continuous effect is always applied on these five creatures until end of turn in "layer system".
The continuous effect that affect creature's P/T is applied in layer 7.
Voice's ability that set the token's P/T (equal to the number of creatures you control) is applied in layer 7a.
Langiush's effect is applied in layer 7c.
So to determine the token's P/T , you have to calculate in these layers.
As Languish resolves , the token's P/T = 5/5(7a)-4/4(7c) = 1/1.
Then after SBA checking , the token's P/T = 1/1(7a) - 4/4(7c) = -3/-3. So SBA will check again and send it to graveyard.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
You don't need to think of the -X/-X effect as being "marked". Languish says clearly that it lasts until end of turn.
All creatures get the -4/-4 buff, the token becomes a 1/1 and all other creatures are reduced too or below 0 toughness. State is then checked again and the token turns into a 1/1 with a -4/-4 buff which kills it. It is easier to think of the buff lasting until the end of turn and reducing the natural size of the card as dictated by */* or the actual number indicating power and toughness.
Thanks again!