Simple question. You tap knight, bring in a fetch, untap knight and tap again to search. What shortcut options are available to reduce the shuffling required? How does one go about looping the activation to get all the lands out of the deck in a fairly quick manner?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
You ask your opponent if you can shortcut and do one shuffle after you are finished retrieving the lands. You opponent can refuse and you will be required to shuffle after each activation.
716.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a
sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game
state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a nonrepetitive
series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or
nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the
outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this
sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing
the shortcut.
716.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may
either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where he or she will make
a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at
this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the
proposed sequence.
You can also read the Tournament Shortcut section of the MTR. MTR= Magic Tournament Rules.
EDIT: Simply loop by tapping and untapping the knight and placing the appropiate lands in the graveyard.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Your opponent can request that you shuffle after each activation as that is a required action. Of course I would just ask the player if they intend to respond at a certain point or just F6.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Added question. Could I call a judge over if they want me to shuffle each time. The thing is, salty players could easily try to draw with it. I'd like to avoid that. Is there anyways I can shorten shuffle time? I'm assuming on my end I dont have to shuffle much. But he can take as long as he likes?
Added question. Could I call a judge over if they want me to shuffle each time. The thing is, salty players could easily try to draw with it.
Absolutely. Intentionally trying to waste time in order to influence the outcome of the match is the definition of Cheating - Stalling. If you feel like your opponent is doing this, definitely get a judge involved. (Just don't go asking the judge to issue a specific penalty - that's its own Unsporting Conduct infraction.)
So you have to state which lands you will be saccing and searching at the start of the loop then?
Ex: Demonstrate loop once, then state "I'll do this loop 5 times saccing the breeding pool, hallowed fountain, temple garden, temple garden and forest, searching for a hallowed fountain, temple garden, temple garden, forest and plains, leaving a plains in play?"
edit above: I think i confused myself just by trying to type it out! I think this works?
I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out how to state the loop when you are going to sac some of the cards not in play yet to continue the loop.
Wait, if what you guys say is true, then why doesn't 4 horsemen work in legacy? Why is it slow play to have to shuffle Emrakul back in so many times but not for Knight here?
Is this even something you can declare as a complete loop? To declare a shortcut involving a loop, you need to state the number of iterations and declare the resulting game state. The game state that you end up with (i.e. which lands are in the graveyard and which ones are on the battlefield at the end) depends on the results of searching your library, which means that you have to declare an ending game state based on hidden information. The opponent would have to take it on faith that your library actually contains the cards you name in order to accept the shortcut.
I know that you can achieve a similar outcome using a series of smaller shortcuts - each time you fetch a land, you can propose a shortcut of "Here's the land, we'll pretend I shuffled, resolve Retreat's ability, activate KotR, sac this land, start resolving that ability and I go back to searching again. That cool?" - but is it actually possible to declare the whole thing as one loop?
@Cortar: The reason why the Four Horsemen loop doesn't work as a shortcut is because there is a step that depends on a random outcome (after shuffling your deck, you need to mill certain cards before you mill a specific other card) and thus it's not possible to name an exact number of times that you need to perform the loop in order to achieve the desired result.
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Simple question. You tap knight, bring in a fetch, untap knight and tap again to search. What shortcut options are available to reduce the shuffling required? How does one go about looping the activation to get all the lands out of the deck in a fairly quick manner?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
716.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a
sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game
state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a nonrepetitive
series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or
nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the
outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this
sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing
the shortcut.
716.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may
either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where he or she will make
a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at
this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the
proposed sequence.
You can also read the Tournament Shortcut section of the MTR. MTR= Magic Tournament Rules.
EDIT: Simply loop by tapping and untapping the knight and placing the appropiate lands in the graveyard.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Do you need to state how many times you are looping in advance, or can you decide as you go?
If you want to use a fetch in the middle of the loop, does that interrupt it and force you to shuffle?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Ex: Demonstrate loop once, then state "I'll do this loop 5 times saccing the breeding pool, hallowed fountain, temple garden, temple garden and forest, searching for a hallowed fountain, temple garden, temple garden, forest and plains, leaving a plains in play?"
edit above: I think i confused myself just by trying to type it out! I think this works?
I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out how to state the loop when you are going to sac some of the cards not in play yet to continue the loop.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I know that you can achieve a similar outcome using a series of smaller shortcuts - each time you fetch a land, you can propose a shortcut of "Here's the land, we'll pretend I shuffled, resolve Retreat's ability, activate KotR, sac this land, start resolving that ability and I go back to searching again. That cool?" - but is it actually possible to declare the whole thing as one loop?
@Cortar: The reason why the Four Horsemen loop doesn't work as a shortcut is because there is a step that depends on a random outcome (after shuffling your deck, you need to mill certain cards before you mill a specific other card) and thus it's not possible to name an exact number of times that you need to perform the loop in order to achieve the desired result.