In the past it was a common thing tap down attackers with the icy manipulator and what not. But attackers are declared by tapping the creatures. So wouldn't using the icy be pointless and not stop attackers?
In an actual game the attack phase goes by so fast, that little minute details like this is overlooked. I'm looking for a breakdown of the actual process.
When neither player has anything to do in the Main Phase, the game moves to the Combat Phase. This starts with the Beginning of Combat Step. Both players get priority to activate abilities or cast spells. This is the last opportunity you have to activate Icy Manipulator (or something similar) to tap down creatures. Note that you will not know which creatures will be attacking.
Then, the game moves into the Declare Attackers step. The first thing that happens here is that attackers are declared. This does not use the stack and cannot be responded to. Once attackers are declared, both players get priority. At this point, the creatures have been declared as Attacking so tapping them down with Icy Manipulator will not remove them from combat or stop them from attacking.
In order to tap down a potential (!!!) attacker, you have to do so before the attack is declared, which means in the beginning of combat step at the latest. Once the declare attackers step begins, it is too late to stop a creature from attacking this way. It also means, that you don't know yet, which if any creatures are going to attack and which player/planeswalker. Now, a player cannot rush through to the declaration of attackers, you always get the chance to do something first. If a player does rush through, you have the right to rewind the game, but if you were given the opportunity and didn't use it, you're out of luck.
Example: The active player enters the combat phase by saying something like "move to combat" or "I'm declaring attackers", or simply taps some creatures declaring the attackers. This is a shortcut proposal for moving to the declare attacker step, which you can accept or shorten or reject. You have to say something like "before you do, I tap [CREATURE]" or "in the beginning of combat step, I do ..." if you want to act first. If you interrupt the shortcut, the other players are not bound by any choices stated for after the interruption. So if you rewind the game and tap one potential attacker out of two that were declared, the other creature does not have to attack.
Example: The active player enters the combat phase by saying something like "move to combat" or "I'm declaring attackers", or simply taps some creatures declaring the attackers.
Let's break this down.
Ex 1.) Player A says "move to combat". Player B has the option to respond and tap down his creature(s). But Player B would have no idea which creature to attack because A hasn't tapped them yet.
Ex 2.) But back in the old days (or maybe I was playing incorrectly, or too informally), Player A would declare attackers and tap his creatures. Player B now knows which creature to tap and which not to.
Was I playing incorrectly in ex. 2? If done correctly as you laid out, will player b know which creatures to tap down?
In example 2, I assume player A declares attackers without offering player B a window to respond. In this case, this is just a shortcut like in example 1 (C.R. 718.2a), so if player B interrupts declaring attackers (by targeting a creature with Icy Manipulator, for example), the game moves to just before the declare attackers step (C.R. 718.2b-c). As a result, player A now knows that that creature will be kept from attacking, so that player A is not bound to continue to attack with that creature, but can now choose to attack with other creatures (once the game reaches the declare attackers step again) or not to attack at all.
EDIT (July 27, 2016): The shortcut rule was renumbered with Eldritch Moon.
You were playing incorrectly, yes. Example 1 is how it works. If you play out all things corrctly, the defending player won't know which creatures will be declared as attackers. If the active player rushed through and the game was rewound, the active player can remedy his choice of attackrs based on the new game state.
Fully understanding this can sometimes give you a big edge in magic.
Example 1.
Your opponent attacks you without openly declaring that he or she is moving to the combat phase, you can tap that creature by backing up the game to the beginning of combat step. This is the obvious example highlighted in previous posts. Its worth noting the obvious - that you can back up the game to tap a different creature, if you suspect your opponent is using the example below.
Example 2.
You propose a shortcut by declaring that you will attack with a creature, guessing that your opponent will back you up and tap that creature. Back up the game to the beginning of combat step, and confirm that he or she wants to tap that creature. Then attack with the creature you actually wanted to hit with. You'll often have to defend this action, but if you fully understand these rules and explain what you are doing then you'll be covered. If you feel uncomfortable with the idea of the "proposed shortcut" then you can simply move quickly with the same result.
For these reason, when there's an icy effect in play, most seasoned players will make it very clear they are moving to the combat phase and give the opponent a moment to respond. It keeps the game straightforward.
In the past it was a common thing tap down attackers with the icy manipulator and what not. But attackers are declared by tapping the creatures. So wouldn't using the icy be pointless and not stop attackers?
In an actual game the attack phase goes by so fast, that little minute details like this is overlooked. I'm looking for a breakdown of the actual process.
Then, the game moves into the Declare Attackers step. The first thing that happens here is that attackers are declared. This does not use the stack and cannot be responded to. Once attackers are declared, both players get priority. At this point, the creatures have been declared as Attacking so tapping them down with Icy Manipulator will not remove them from combat or stop them from attacking.
Example: The active player enters the combat phase by saying something like "move to combat" or "I'm declaring attackers", or simply taps some creatures declaring the attackers. This is a shortcut proposal for moving to the declare attacker step, which you can accept or shorten or reject. You have to say something like "before you do, I tap [CREATURE]" or "in the beginning of combat step, I do ..." if you want to act first. If you interrupt the shortcut, the other players are not bound by any choices stated for after the interruption. So if you rewind the game and tap one potential attacker out of two that were declared, the other creature does not have to attack.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Let's break this down.
Ex 1.) Player A says "move to combat". Player B has the option to respond and tap down his creature(s). But Player B would have no idea which creature to attack because A hasn't tapped them yet.
Ex 2.) But back in the old days (or maybe I was playing incorrectly, or too informally), Player A would declare attackers and tap his creatures. Player B now knows which creature to tap and which not to.
Was I playing incorrectly in ex. 2? If done correctly as you laid out, will player b know which creatures to tap down?
EDIT (July 27, 2016): The shortcut rule was renumbered with Eldritch Moon.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Example 1.
Your opponent attacks you without openly declaring that he or she is moving to the combat phase, you can tap that creature by backing up the game to the beginning of combat step. This is the obvious example highlighted in previous posts. Its worth noting the obvious - that you can back up the game to tap a different creature, if you suspect your opponent is using the example below.
Example 2.
You propose a shortcut by declaring that you will attack with a creature, guessing that your opponent will back you up and tap that creature. Back up the game to the beginning of combat step, and confirm that he or she wants to tap that creature. Then attack with the creature you actually wanted to hit with. You'll often have to defend this action, but if you fully understand these rules and explain what you are doing then you'll be covered. If you feel uncomfortable with the idea of the "proposed shortcut" then you can simply move quickly with the same result.
For these reason, when there's an icy effect in play, most seasoned players will make it very clear they are moving to the combat phase and give the opponent a moment to respond. It keeps the game straightforward.
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