So I just reread the Kamigawa cycle. I was wondering... how powerful are the myojins? O-Kogachi? Night's Reach could Planeswalk or something like it... and it looked like she was as powerful as a planewalker...
O-Kogachi... as powerful as Yawgmoth? less? He seemed as powerful as a god.
Anyways... that got me thinking. Could we have a list of the power levels of characters? Gods would be high on that list... next would be planeswalkers and very powerful mages... next would be powerful mages and soldiers. next? I guess that would be the end... there would be too many thing to list to go on after that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[thread=52196][Alliance of Rogue Deckers!][/thread][My Cube List]
Hmm... I'm not sure about all of those but I can at give a shot at the Myojin (Night's Reach specifically).
The only reason she was able to planeswalk was because O-Kagachi was too distracted by the war, and the barrier between worlds was weakened because of it. A kami seems to have absolute power over only those aspects of reality under its jurisdiction, hence Toshi's creative use of Night's blessings. But with Big O looking the other way, Night took a little more freedom and took advantage of the situation (as any black character is wont to do).
Well, the Myojin are essencially the embodyment of their colour, so I'd say they're all powerful in the realm of their colour. O-Kogachi would be as powerful as Yawgmoth if they were each in their own plane, tough O-Kogachi doesn't appear to be all that intelligent.
I would agree with you guys but remember a planeswalker could just planeswalk them off their plane. So I say nothing is really ever stronger than a planeswalker ut the myojins are probly second in the whole thing. I still wonder if their is something stronger than a planeswalker.
I would agree with you guys but remember a planeswalker could just planeswalk them off their plane. So I say nothing is really ever stronger than a planeswalker ut the myojins are probly second in the whole thing. I still wonder if their is something stronger than a planeswalker.
A god perhaps?
How powerful are Dragons? Although it said in the book... it seemed Yawgmoth could invade Dominaria even if there were the Primevals. Yawgmoth would have just swallowed up the dragons right?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[thread=52196][Alliance of Rogue Deckers!][/thread][My Cube List]
It is hard to say who is stronger.
Its not the case of amount of power but of trickery.
Examples:
Yawgmoth killing Dayfed (when he wasn't The Dark Lord yet)
Tetsuo killing Nicol Bolas
Also Urza planeswalker was lured by Yavimaya
It is very hard to kill planeswalker though.
But I think it is harder to kill such entity like Gaea. To kill her you would have to destroy the whole world! That's probably the only way. (Another would be devouring her and becoming world-spirit by yourself I think...)
1.Yawgmoth had the power of a planeswalker in his new plane and willed Dayfed to not planeswalk away. He did not kill her and preserved her life while dissecting her body.
2.Tetsuo just blocked the way Nicolas entered the Plane. He is still alive and was barely damaged by the attack. But it was trickery alright....
3.As you stated... Yavimaya would be as powerful as a Planewalker...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[thread=52196][Alliance of Rogue Deckers!][/thread][My Cube List]
I think Yawgmoth is vastly more powerful than a Planeswalker, any of them. I also believe that the Myojin are almost as powerful as Planeswalkers, but not quite. O-kagachi is likely to be the closest to Yawgmoth's power on Kamigawa.
Does someone have to be a Planeswalker in order to traverse the multiverse? Karona wasn't, and yet she could.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
So I just reread the Kamigawa cycle. I was wondering... how powerful are the myojins? O-Kogachi? Night's Reach could Planeswalk or something like it... and it looked like she was as powerful as a planewalker...
O-Kogachi... as powerful as Yawgmoth? less? He seemed as powerful as a god.
Anyways... that got me thinking. Could we have a list of the power levels of characters? Gods would be high on that list... next would be planeswalkers and very powerful mages... next would be powerful mages and soldiers. next? I guess that would be the end... there would be too many thing to list to go on after that.
I love this question, both because I can talk freely about it (the books are all in print) and because I spent a lot of time thinking about just this topic while writing the trilogy. While there does apear to be planeswalking, there are definitely no planeswalkers, that is, beings with an ascended planeswalker spark.
With the caveat that I believe anyone can defeat anyone else in the Magic universe if they have superior strategy and preparation—witness human Yawgmoth vs. planeswalker Dyfed, avatar Multani vs. planeswalker Urza, or human Tetsuo Umezawa vs. planeswalker Nicol Bolas. I don’t like the concept of “power levels” because it’s a bit misleading, but there are general classes of beings and the higher levels do have more raw power/magical energy at their disposal.
For the purposes of discussion and with the understanding that WotC ultimately defines these sorts of questions, here is my intentionally provocative but honest appraisal of Magic power levels:
Karona—the embodiment of magic itself Plane-based supreme beings (on their home planes)—Yawmgoth, O-Kagachi Planeswalkers—Urza, Taysir, Nicol Bolas, Freyalise, Leshrac Plane-based supreme beings (off their home plane)—Yawgmoth, O-Kagachi O-Kagachi (minus That Which Was Taken) Myojin, major Oni, and Avatars/Nature Spirits—Night’s Reach, All Consuming Chaos, Multani, Titania Kami, lesser oni—Mochi, Kobo’s oni dog Greater Wizards—Barrin, Jodah, Lim-Dul, Hidetsugu Combat Wizards—Kamahl (Onslaught block), Tetsuo Umezawa Battlemages/Taskmages—Jaya Ballard (pre-ascension), Kamahl (Odyssey block), Toshi Umezawa
And for the record, O-Kagachi as you see him in the Kamigawa books has been diminished by the loss of That Which Was Taken—so he’s wild, angry, and out of control, more a force of nature than a fully sentient being.
So I say the undiminished O-Kagachi would fold, spindle, and mutilate Yawgmoth before devouring the Big Y in bite-sized chunks—presuming they both retained their full power levels when they fought (through some kind of time/space-bending spell that allowed Yawgmoth to be as if he were in Phyrexia and OK to be as if he were in Kamigawa?). That being said, I can see no way Yawgmoth wouldn’t see this fight coming and take OK down a peg or three before the direct confrontation started. If they fought as a complete surprise to both participants, if they fought fair and head-to-head, OK wins in a walk. Any other circumstances and I say Yawgmoth wins 10 out of 10 times because he’s craftier and not afraid to cheat.
I’m sure everone agrees 100% with me, so that’ll be the end of this thread...right?
Sure it will.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cheers,
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Well, when a storyline expert drops in, the argument ends, don't it?
That would be a first, actually. But seriously, I have a very well-informed opinion, but I'd bet there are lots of folks out there who will not hesitate to tell me where I went astray.
Quote from Psychoburner »
Seriously, that doesn't surprise me, except Karona. If Karona is so powerful...why was she printed?
I don't know for sure, but I assume it's because the ban against printing planeswalkers doesn't apply to embodiments of magic itself. Karona was unstable (physically, mentally, magically) and her card reflects that, but planeswalkers always stay on one side--so a powerful planeswalker card would unbalance the game. Karona's card is "balanced" because she shifts from player to player each turn.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cheers,
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
The Primeval Dragons are only powerful if they are all together. If one dies they loses power. But the are probely on the same level as myojin(almost).
The thing with Gaea is that she never shows up and does things directly. She works slowly, in the background. Remember in Invasions block when Multani prays to her? She never answers. Stuff happens, but a case could be made that this is just the way Multani channels his spells. I do think she exitst, but her mysteriousness makes her hard to place in a power-level chart. I do agree on her current place (as a plane-based supreme being): Scourge had that "And Gaea breathed again" line that suggest she can't handle Karona directly, but she helped create the Shard to keep Urza out, which would place her above planeswalker.
I would place Elder Dragons a notch below Planeswalkers. When Gaeadrone Dihada absorbed Piru's powers she said "The Elder... she's almost like a planeswalker!", so that puts them just below 'walkers. I have no idea how they would compare to newer characters like the Myojin and O-Kagachi of course.
I think the Primeval Dragons would rate above 'walkers if they're all working together. Otherwise I think they are on par with greatrer wizards.
Very well put. I agree right across the board (and thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it out).
I myself would add Gix (or Gix-level Phyrexian Inner Circle members) to the same level that includes Myojin and Avatars. Gix ruled.
Mad Mat, I can't really speak to the Niphilim because I don't know enough--Hey, Cory! What do you think?
And Mort, O-Kagachi wasn't killed by the Sisters per se...he was consumed and digested, his power transformed and transferred to Michiko-hime and Kyodai.
Quote from The Squirle master »
I don't agree with mister McGough on the placing of the Umezawa's though. Jodah fought Varchild's army in Shattered Alliance and was out of magic after a few protective spells and fireballs. In Chapion's Trial Tetsuo wiped out the entire Kentsu with a Falling Star and proceded to whoop Devilboon, Overdark AND Bolas. It seems to me Tetsuo is one of the more powerful wizards out there.
Again, good point. I probably overestimated Jodah's raw power and he probably doesn't deserve to be alongside Barrin and Lim-Dul. Though Jodah did defeat Lim Dul.
Ahh, I don't know. It makes for a lively discussion, eh?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cheers,
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Szat said that if all Dragon Legends were reborn... Yawgmoth would not have been able to invade Dominaria... So they would be much more powerful than Myojins... But alone... I don't know.
Also, what about the Numena? They destroyed the Dragons...
@TheSquileMaster: Jodah was casting spells for days... no chance to rest. I would say Jodah was much more powerful... he also had planeswalker blood in him.
Oh. One more thing. How powerful would the Phyrexian Negators be? or the Demons? I would think the Demons would be as powerful as planeswalkers...
Quote from Sengir_the_Cursed »
What about Gerrard. Since he had 1000 souls in him plus phyrexian enhancements how powerful would he be.
Gerrard would be considered a Demon because of Yawgmoth's blessings
Yes, the Yawgmoth Praetors (Yawgmoth's highest servants) are probably really powerful. Gix was powerful enough to fight Urza on a decent footing, right?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
I think Karona's powers are merely through her 'personification of magic' thing. I don't think it's faith, per se. I think that since she can do nearly anything, believing she can do something suddenly gives her the idea not the ability to do it.
I don't think believing gives her power, I think that she discovers her powers when somebody suddenly thinks she can do it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
There is, MORT, the spark. The Planeswalker's spark is what makes them one. I don't know how they come into being, or where they come from, but that is the component.
Yawgmoth, as a non-magical person at the time, had no way of knowing this, so he thought it was an organ of some sort
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
I think the planeswalker's spark is a magical source of energy that exists...anywhere, really. I don't think a spark is a tangible, or even visible, thing. I think it simply exists as a part of it's owner. It can be transferred, taken out, or even possibly stolen, but never seen or touched
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
Judging by what we've seen of the Nephilim so far, including the Dissension sample they don't seem to be very intelligent. They may have been worshipped as gods for their physical power, but not because of any actual divinity.
Hmmm Wouldn't Hidetsugu be above the lower kami? And probobly the Kamigawa Dragons? He did have help, but it didn't seem as if he needed it that bad, and technically the Yamabushi helping him were his "creations".
That and for Jodah, I think he was placed correctly. I think when he's fighting Varchild's army, he's using all his energy to protect the people, and it doesn't really follow second by second, does it? He's more than likely contantly using his magic. As to why he couldn't outright kill them... They were spread out? I don't know. I don't think Lim-Dul could do that either.
The Nephilim can't really be placed yet, can they? They're just cards at the moment (Well does the book come out today? I don't know if it makes mention there). Oh well... They're my favorite 'characters' at the moment just because they can each inspire different ideas.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You know, there are some days that I wish I had just stayed in bed. You'll understand once you play against me; sleeping is so much better than defeat."
Regarding the difference between a Planeswalker and a strong wizard, it just seems that a Planeswalker has a couple advantages, mainly being able to planeswalker and being indestructable through physical damage (at least in some continuity streams.) As well as probably having access to a greater mana pool and greater number of spells. In most of the cases where a planeswalker was taken down, it was through trickery or disabling, rather than sheer force. (Radiant pulling out Urza's eyes after becoming spell immune, kerrick's falcons, multani's enchantment warding trees), so it seems most planeswalker's biggest problems are their oversized egos or the lack of foresight that gets them into such situations.
Also, wasn't the planeswalker who mortally wounded Serra (fighting for her wedding ring.) then disabled by an old man with a cane? If I recall from the comics, Serra let herself be beaten by the rival planeswalker, then some random old guy bonks the 'walker on the head with his cane and the walker dissolves into dust. Weakest. Planeswalker. Ever.
Planeswalkers' body is energy.
And I know that spark can be transferred/used (Slobad's spark).
Ok Planeswalker's Body=Energy.
that means all parts of the Planeswalker's body. There is no organ in being a planewalker because everything of the planewalker is the thing that makes him/her a planeswalker. There is no specific organ. But a brain helps. wait not brain... but mind. (For all we know a planeswalker can think using his kidneys instead of his brain.) and remember, in the 2nd artifacts cycle book, There was a planeswalker shaped up like a box.. where would the organs be for that?
Anyways, we are going off topic here.
In about half the books, incapacitating a Planeswalker's mind meant disabling the planeswalker because he/she could not reform a body, but in some books, Planeswalkers are purely incorporeal, and their bodies are just projections of themselves that they use for convenience, nothing more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
O-Kogachi... as powerful as Yawgmoth? less? He seemed as powerful as a god.
Anyways... that got me thinking. Could we have a list of the power levels of characters? Gods would be high on that list... next would be planeswalkers and very powerful mages... next would be powerful mages and soldiers. next? I guess that would be the end... there would be too many thing to list to go on after that.
The only reason she was able to planeswalk was because O-Kagachi was too distracted by the war, and the barrier between worlds was weakened because of it. A kami seems to have absolute power over only those aspects of reality under its jurisdiction, hence Toshi's creative use of Night's blessings. But with Big O looking the other way, Night took a little more freedom and took advantage of the situation (as any black character is wont to do).
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
A god perhaps?
How powerful are Dragons? Although it said in the book... it seemed Yawgmoth could invade Dominaria even if there were the Primevals. Yawgmoth would have just swallowed up the dragons right?
1.Yawgmoth had the power of a planeswalker in his new plane and willed Dayfed to not planeswalk away. He did not kill her and preserved her life while dissecting her body.
2.Tetsuo just blocked the way Nicolas entered the Plane. He is still alive and was barely damaged by the attack. But it was trickery alright....
3.As you stated... Yavimaya would be as powerful as a Planewalker...
Does someone have to be a Planeswalker in order to traverse the multiverse? Karona wasn't, and yet she could.
I love this question, both because I can talk freely about it (the books are all in print) and because I spent a lot of time thinking about just this topic while writing the trilogy. While there does apear to be planeswalking, there are definitely no planeswalkers, that is, beings with an ascended planeswalker spark.
With the caveat that I believe anyone can defeat anyone else in the Magic universe if they have superior strategy and preparation—witness human Yawgmoth vs. planeswalker Dyfed, avatar Multani vs. planeswalker Urza, or human Tetsuo Umezawa vs. planeswalker Nicol Bolas. I don’t like the concept of “power levels” because it’s a bit misleading, but there are general classes of beings and the higher levels do have more raw power/magical energy at their disposal.
For the purposes of discussion and with the understanding that WotC ultimately defines these sorts of questions, here is my intentionally provocative but honest appraisal of Magic power levels:
Karona—the embodiment of magic itself
Plane-based supreme beings (on their home planes)—Yawmgoth, O-Kagachi
Planeswalkers—Urza, Taysir, Nicol Bolas, Freyalise, Leshrac
Plane-based supreme beings (off their home plane)—Yawgmoth, O-Kagachi
O-Kagachi (minus That Which Was Taken)
Myojin, major Oni, and Avatars/Nature Spirits—Night’s Reach, All Consuming Chaos, Multani, Titania
Kami, lesser oni—Mochi, Kobo’s oni dog
Greater Wizards—Barrin, Jodah, Lim-Dul, Hidetsugu
Combat Wizards—Kamahl (Onslaught block), Tetsuo Umezawa
Battlemages/Taskmages—Jaya Ballard (pre-ascension), Kamahl (Odyssey block), Toshi Umezawa
And for the record, O-Kagachi as you see him in the Kamigawa books has been diminished by the loss of That Which Was Taken—so he’s wild, angry, and out of control, more a force of nature than a fully sentient being.
So I say the undiminished O-Kagachi would fold, spindle, and mutilate Yawgmoth before devouring the Big Y in bite-sized chunks—presuming they both retained their full power levels when they fought (through some kind of time/space-bending spell that allowed Yawgmoth to be as if he were in Phyrexia and OK to be as if he were in Kamigawa?). That being said, I can see no way Yawgmoth wouldn’t see this fight coming and take OK down a peg or three before the direct confrontation started. If they fought as a complete surprise to both participants, if they fought fair and head-to-head, OK wins in a walk. Any other circumstances and I say Yawgmoth wins 10 out of 10 times because he’s craftier and not afraid to cheat.
I’m sure everone agrees 100% with me, so that’ll be the end of this thread...right?
Sure it will.
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
That list doesn't really surprise me except Karona. If she was so powerful...why was she printed? If you don't know that, no big deal.
Thanks for the information!
That would be a first, actually. But seriously, I have a very well-informed opinion, but I'd bet there are lots of folks out there who will not hesitate to tell me where I went astray.
I don't know for sure, but I assume it's because the ban against printing planeswalkers doesn't apply to embodiments of magic itself. Karona was unstable (physically, mentally, magically) and her card reflects that, but planeswalkers always stay on one side--so a powerful planeswalker card would unbalance the game. Karona's card is "balanced" because she shifts from player to player each turn.
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
The Primeval Dragons are only powerful if they are all together. If one dies they loses power. But the are probely on the same level as myojin(almost).
Very well put. I agree right across the board (and thanks for saving me the trouble of typing it out).
I myself would add Gix (or Gix-level Phyrexian Inner Circle members) to the same level that includes Myojin and Avatars. Gix ruled.
Mad Mat, I can't really speak to the Niphilim because I don't know enough--Hey, Cory! What do you think?
And Mort, O-Kagachi wasn't killed by the Sisters per se...he was consumed and digested, his power transformed and transferred to Michiko-hime and Kyodai.
Again, good point. I probably overestimated Jodah's raw power and he probably doesn't deserve to be alongside Barrin and Lim-Dul. Though Jodah did defeat Lim Dul.
Ahh, I don't know. It makes for a lively discussion, eh?
McG
_______________________
"...if I woke up looking like that, I would just run towards the nearest living thing and kill it."
--Master Shake
Also, what about the Numena? They destroyed the Dragons...
@TheSquileMaster: Jodah was casting spells for days... no chance to rest. I would say Jodah was much more powerful... he also had planeswalker blood in him.
Oh. One more thing. How powerful would the Phyrexian Negators be? or the Demons? I would think the Demons would be as powerful as planeswalkers...
Gerrard would be considered a Demon because of Yawgmoth's blessings
I don't think believing gives her power, I think that she discovers her powers when somebody suddenly thinks she can do it.
Yawgmoth, as a non-magical person at the time, had no way of knowing this, so he thought it was an organ of some sort
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
That and for Jodah, I think he was placed correctly. I think when he's fighting Varchild's army, he's using all his energy to protect the people, and it doesn't really follow second by second, does it? He's more than likely contantly using his magic. As to why he couldn't outright kill them... They were spread out? I don't know. I don't think Lim-Dul could do that either.
The Nephilim can't really be placed yet, can they? They're just cards at the moment (Well does the book come out today? I don't know if it makes mention there). Oh well... They're my favorite 'characters' at the moment just because they can each inspire different ideas.
Also, wasn't the planeswalker who mortally wounded Serra (fighting for her wedding ring.) then disabled by an old man with a cane? If I recall from the comics, Serra let herself be beaten by the rival planeswalker, then some random old guy bonks the 'walker on the head with his cane and the walker dissolves into dust. Weakest. Planeswalker. Ever.
Ok Planeswalker's Body=Energy.
that means all parts of the Planeswalker's body. There is no organ in being a planewalker because everything of the planewalker is the thing that makes him/her a planeswalker. There is no specific organ. But a brain helps. wait not brain... but mind. (For all we know a planeswalker can think using his kidneys instead of his brain.) and remember, in the 2nd artifacts cycle book, There was a planeswalker shaped up like a box.. where would the organs be for that?
Anyways, we are going off topic here.
EDIT: @MORT :equally co-creates