Always wondered, how do we Planeswalkers summon creatures from different realms (including token creatures/and planeswalkers like Jace Beleran)? Do we create them out of thin air, or open a portal they walk through, etc.?
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Helpful but still don't get how they are pulled from the "AEther". Wouldn't it be from their world? I thought the AEther is what Planeswalkers use as a gateway to the Multiverse, like an airport terminal.
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Helpful but still don't get how they are pulled from the "AEther". Wouldn't it be from their world? I thought the AEther is what Planeswalkers use as a gateway to the Multiverse, like an airport terminal.
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The aether is the insubstantial chaos that exists in between worlds. It also exists, in smaller degrees, inside planar boundaries.
The aether, in its massive destructive quantities, is called the Blind Eternities. Things without sparks cannot exist within the Blind Eternities before they are ripped apart by the chaotic forces that exist there. It's like Reality Acid. The Eldrazi were born from Aether and do not normally exist in a physical state, but it gives you a good idea about how messed up the Blind Eternities are if something like the Eldrazi make sense within their bounds. The Eternities are essentially a gigantic multidimensional ocean of aether.
When you say "pulled from the aether" it means created from scratch, given substance from aether as the building block.
There are no definitive answers for what how creatures are summoned. Planar bound beings can often make contracts with each other and are teleported if needed.
When you get to Planeswalkers though... that's something else. Either they create the distillation of a creature from the aether, using mana as a sort of base or mold to give the aether something to cling to while the mind fills in the details.
But then sometimes it seems as if planeswalkers are summoning the actual creatures by creating a tiny fracture in the veil of realities and creating a sort of tunnel between the two places big enough for ONLY what they are summoning. It creates a sort of tether between the walker and the creature with which the walker can pull the creature across. However, this takes a LOT of constant power and concentration on the walker's part. They cannot take people with them this way, because a lapse in concentration will cause an immediate snapback.
In my mind, summoning is calling into form a memory, much like casting another spell. For example, a planeswalker who met a disaffected goblin from Ravnica who'd mastered one fire spell would call on that memory to summon Guttersnipe. The player would call on the memory and use the aether to give it substance.
In my mind, summoning is calling into form a memory, much like casting another spell. For example, a planeswalker who met a disaffected goblin from Ravnica who'd mastered one fire spell would call on that memory to summon Guttersnipe. The player would call on the memory and use the aether to give it substance.
That's close to how it was described in Loran's Smile from Colors of Magic.
The only difference being that the memory wouldn't be a specific guttersnipe, but the distillation of the guttersnipe. Your quintessential incarnation of what made a guttersnipe. it would be exaggerated in some measures, while it would lack capacities in other areas.
In my mind, summoning is calling into form a memory, much like casting another spell. For example, a planeswalker who met a disaffected goblin from Ravnica who'd mastered one fire spell would call on that memory to summon Guttersnipe. The player would call on the memory and use the aether to give it substance.
You mean if you have a memory of a certain creature, you can create a form of it?
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You mean if you have a memory of a certain creature, you can create a form of it?
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It won't be the exact creature. It will be what you remember of it with a healthy dose of what you NEED it to be.
That's why you can have multiples of it. You aren't recreating a specific person... unless you are creating a legendary creature, but that comes with its own whole set of rules.
So for example, I use Guttersnipe for the damage-dealing. My summoned Guttersnipe would be more eager to burn things, less sympathetic, and possibly a little psychotic. Whereas, someone who was using Guttersnipe in a goblin deck would have a slightly less intelligent goblin who only vaguely remembers how to cast the one spell.
Legendaries, flavourwise, are those people who a planeswalker may befriend or spend a lot of time with, until they build up a more rounded picture of that particular person. Again, someone summoning Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be calling on a younger, slightly less active version of Niv-Mizzet than the person who would have visited more recently and gotten to know Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius.
"Summoning" planeswalkers to me is more like having their phone number. As an example, when I call Chandra, the Firebrand, I'm sending a mana-message to Chandra Nalaar that says "Come with your bag of tricks." as opposed to Chandra Ablaze which tells her, "Let's burn this to the ground." For another example, Ajani Goldmane calls him with a message that says "I need your experience and advice." while Ajani Vengeant would say "There's people here who need defending. Bring some firepower."
So for example, I use Guttersnipe for the damage-dealing. My summoned Guttersnipe would be more eager to burn things, less sympathetic, and possibly a little psychotic. Whereas, someone who was using Guttersnipe in a goblin deck would have a slightly less intelligent goblin who only vaguely remembers how to cast the one spell.
In fairness, they wouldn't actually have a lot of personality. As magical constructs, you don't NEED them to have much personality, only as much as to accomplish their task.
Legendaries, flavourwise, are those people who a planeswalker may befriend or spend a lot of time with, until they build up a more rounded picture of that particular person. Again, someone summoning Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be calling on a younger, slightly less active version of Niv-Mizzet than the person who would have visited more recently and gotten to know Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius.
This, on the other hand, is not exactly true.
When you summon a legendary, when you want THAT specific person, everything you know about them will go into that spell, but the catch to that is any legend or myth you might have heard about that being will also go into that creation, no matter how farfetched. Even further, folk knowledge about that person will start to seep into your creation via the aether you build them from. They aren't distillations like regular creatures, but instead the sum of everythingpeople remember of them.
The reason why this doesn't match what Regitnui was talking about is that you don't actually have to know a Legend personally to summon them.
It would be akin to summoning Hercules and everything you knew about him would go into that.
Now, there are some issues of chronology if the legend in question had a major shift like Kamahl did, but that's where your intent factors in. What you need of them in regards to red kamahl vs green kamahl.
For another example, Ajani Goldmane calls him with a message that says "I need your experience and advice." while Ajani Vengeant would say "There's people here who need defending. Bring some firepower."
Of course, this is all my personal opinion.
The major thing here is that Vengeant was an Ajani of one specific time. In modern terms, you cannot summon Ajani Vengeant since he has abandoned that form and those spells. He won't do them for you because he's grown as a person.
As opposed to summoning Liliana of the Veil, who still knows all her other tricks.
But right now, you couldn't flavorfully call Garruk up except as Relentless. He has been magically impaired, cutting him off from Primal Hunter or Wildspeaker form.
@Barinellos RE: Ajani: I guess you're right, but I'm inclined to think that while Ajani is a lot more mature, he can still bust out the Lightning Helix if he really feels it's necessary. That likely wouldn't be often, but he could still do it.
@Barinellos RE: Ajani: I guess you're right, but I'm inclined to think that while Ajani is a lot more mature, he can still bust out the Lightning Helix if he really feels it's necessary. That likely wouldn't be often, but he could still do it.
Eh, as far as that goes, I don't think he'd answer e-mana with a subject line of WR.
He still has those skills, but I don't think he has the mindset for the spells anymore. After all, you have to believe in the magic you cast. If you don't, you just get a pale imitation of what you were aiming for.
So Ajani could still cast that spell, but he'd have to really be incensed (really, really angry) to do it, given that that state of his life was triggered by Jazal's death.
That raises another question. Could you provide the red mana for him? That'll also affect Garruk, because if you summon him Primal Hunter-style, could he use your sources of green mana? Not your land cards in-game, but flavourwise, could you give him the green mana even though he can't call on his own?
Wait so if your in the Aether summoning stuff using the Aether to create it, how would it work with summoning creatures when your in a plane or in that creature's home world?
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That raises another question. Could you provide the red mana for him? That'll also affect Garruk, because if you summon him Primal Hunter-style, could he use your sources of green mana? Not your land cards in-game, but flavourwise, could you give him the green mana even though he can't call on his own?
No, you couldn't. They have to have their own mana bonds.
There's a lot of complicated things about it and I've gone over some of this before, but I'll just link you to the thread at Gleemax in which I touched on the subject. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29132485/Untap_Step
Wait so if your in the Aether summoning stuff using the Aether to create it, how would it work with summoning creatures when your in a plane or in that creature's home world? Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
You aren't in the aether. I'm not sure where you got that from.
Nothing barring the Eldrazi and beings with the spark can survive the Blind Eternities, you cannot summon there. Anything that comes into being in the Blind Eternities will be immediately torn apart.
Anyways, if you are on a plane, you create a creature from the aether and memories. It's not really a real creature.
Not even planeswalkers can survive for extended periods within the Blind Eternities. the very act of planeswalking is difficult for these neowalkers.
Thanks for the link, Bari.
Two quick things:
1) If you're going to abbreviate, please just call me B. I really don't like Bari.
2) Oldwalkers had no ease in the Eternities either. They just punched their way through the planar veil easier to reach it.
You aren't in the aether. I'm not sure where you got that from.
Nothing barring the Eldrazi and beings with the spark can survive the Blind Eternities, you cannot summon there. Anything that comes into being in the Blind Eternities will be immediately torn apart.
Anyways, if you are on a plane, you create a creature from the aether and memories. It's not really a real creature.
I always thought that when Planeswalkers dueled, it was in the Aether. I also thought they could survive in the Aether to travel to different planes. That's what I've been told.
On a side note, it was said the creature would be materialised through thought and knowledge, creating a new being. If you send that being away and summon it back, would it have memories of past duels and events it fought with you, or be a totally new and different creature every time you summoned it?
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Planeswalkers can travel through the Aether, but it's more like teleporting between worlds than a car journey. There's only a few seconds of travel time at most. Any more than that and they'd get annihilated, same as everyone else.
It's more than a few seconds (though time's likely difficult to measure in the Eternities). Agents of Artifice and The Purifying Fire both had extended scenes where planeswalkers strolled through the Blind Eternities, though I can't recall if it ever actually talked about how much time the journey took. Minutes, certainly.
I always thought that when Planeswalkers dueled, it was in the Aether. I also thought they could survive in the Aether to travel to different planes. That's what I've been told.
Duels are always fought on planes. The only exception I can think of is when Venser killed the Weaver King. I'd think that the chaos of the Blind Eternities would pretty much tear any spell you try to cast apart.
But yes, like Barinellos said, anything with the spark (planeswalkers) can survive in the Eternities, but not indefinitely.
On a side note, it was said the creature would be materialised through thought and knowledge, creating a new being. If you send that being away and summon it back, would it have memories of past duels and events it fought with you, or be a totally new and different creature every time you summoned it?
New and different. You recreate the creature. I suppose you could try to recreate it with those memories, but it would be your perception of those memories at best, not the actual experiences of the previous summoning.
What about artifacts, then? When I summon an Azorius Keyrune, is that an aetheric construct, or is it something I physically brought to the duel on my person? I suppose artifacts that cost mana would either be "pulled from the aether" or pulled through a portal or what have you, as with creatures, whereas a 0CMC artifact like Mox Opal is something a planeswalker physically brought to the duel.
In early days of the game, and in the early novels, summoning was just what it sounds like: you were 'summoning' that creature to you, essentially teleporting it from one plane to another. One of the novels I read even said that a planeswalker bound that creature in service to it, essentially evaporating free will.
I always liked this premise. It fits in with the concept of collection cards very nicely. You travel the mutli-verse, and you encounter different creatures and peoples. You collect them into your service, and can summon them as your army to do your bidding. This is, of course, back in the days when planeswalkers were demi-gods.
These days, however, there's a weird thing going on. Wizards is saying they don't want to flat out explain what is going on when you summon a creature, but they are also leaning heavily onto other ideas of 'mana essence' creatures (i.e. the creature is a construct of mana and not the original).
I am not a fan of summoning being a fake recreation of a creature's essence through powerful shaping of mana. I don't like it because it means the planeswalker is essentially alone, just casting powerful magic that doesn't involve other people or creatures. It means that at the end of the day, when the smoke clears as it were, a planeswalker is just a very powerful wizard who had cast a very powerful spell, and did not in fact have command of any of the creatures, possession of any of the artifacts, etc, that had been in the duel.
I'm more a fan of real armies and demi-god status.
Artifacts are either one or the other, Icystar. As a red-blue burn mage, I may keep a Sphinx-Bone Wand on my person that I collected from Alara. But if may opponent Shatters it, I could just summon another one that'd be virtually identical to it.
Artifacts are either one or the other, Icystar. As a red-blue burn mage, I may keep a Sphinx-Bone Wand on my person that I collected from Alara. But if may opponent Shatters it, I could just summon another one that'd be virtually identical to it.
Current word from Wizards is that you can't take that Sphinx-bone wand with you to another plane. There was an article recently where they took the hypothetical question of taking a symbol of Avacyn away from Innistrad and, before saying it would be powerless on another plane, emphasized that teleportation of such an item was more or less impossible.
And again, I really object to this trend of thinking. Much more fun to imagine taking that wand, and other items, with you.
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U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Cōnservātum album delenda est.
Helpful but still don't get how they are pulled from the "AEther". Wouldn't it be from their world? I thought the AEther is what Planeswalkers use as a gateway to the Multiverse, like an airport terminal.
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U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
The aether is the insubstantial chaos that exists in between worlds. It also exists, in smaller degrees, inside planar boundaries.
The aether, in its massive destructive quantities, is called the Blind Eternities. Things without sparks cannot exist within the Blind Eternities before they are ripped apart by the chaotic forces that exist there. It's like Reality Acid. The Eldrazi were born from Aether and do not normally exist in a physical state, but it gives you a good idea about how messed up the Blind Eternities are if something like the Eldrazi make sense within their bounds. The Eternities are essentially a gigantic multidimensional ocean of aether.
When you say "pulled from the aether" it means created from scratch, given substance from aether as the building block.
There are no definitive answers for what how creatures are summoned. Planar bound beings can often make contracts with each other and are teleported if needed.
When you get to Planeswalkers though... that's something else. Either they create the distillation of a creature from the aether, using mana as a sort of base or mold to give the aether something to cling to while the mind fills in the details.
But then sometimes it seems as if planeswalkers are summoning the actual creatures by creating a tiny fracture in the veil of realities and creating a sort of tunnel between the two places big enough for ONLY what they are summoning. It creates a sort of tether between the walker and the creature with which the walker can pull the creature across. However, this takes a LOT of constant power and concentration on the walker's part. They cannot take people with them this way, because a lapse in concentration will cause an immediate snapback.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
That's close to how it was described in Loran's Smile from Colors of Magic.
The only difference being that the memory wouldn't be a specific guttersnipe, but the distillation of the guttersnipe. Your quintessential incarnation of what made a guttersnipe. it would be exaggerated in some measures, while it would lack capacities in other areas.
You mean if you have a memory of a certain creature, you can create a form of it?
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U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
It won't be the exact creature. It will be what you remember of it with a healthy dose of what you NEED it to be.
That's why you can have multiples of it. You aren't recreating a specific person... unless you are creating a legendary creature, but that comes with its own whole set of rules.
Legendaries, flavourwise, are those people who a planeswalker may befriend or spend a lot of time with, until they build up a more rounded picture of that particular person. Again, someone summoning Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind would be calling on a younger, slightly less active version of Niv-Mizzet than the person who would have visited more recently and gotten to know Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius.
"Summoning" planeswalkers to me is more like having their phone number. As an example, when I call Chandra, the Firebrand, I'm sending a mana-message to Chandra Nalaar that says "Come with your bag of tricks." as opposed to Chandra Ablaze which tells her, "Let's burn this to the ground." For another example, Ajani Goldmane calls him with a message that says "I need your experience and advice." while Ajani Vengeant would say "There's people here who need defending. Bring some firepower."
Of course, this is all my personal opinion.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
In fairness, they wouldn't actually have a lot of personality. As magical constructs, you don't NEED them to have much personality, only as much as to accomplish their task.
This, on the other hand, is not exactly true.
When you summon a legendary, when you want THAT specific person, everything you know about them will go into that spell, but the catch to that is any legend or myth you might have heard about that being will also go into that creation, no matter how farfetched. Even further, folk knowledge about that person will start to seep into your creation via the aether you build them from. They aren't distillations like regular creatures, but instead the sum of everythingpeople remember of them.
The reason why this doesn't match what Regitnui was talking about is that you don't actually have to know a Legend personally to summon them.
It would be akin to summoning Hercules and everything you knew about him would go into that.
Now, there are some issues of chronology if the legend in question had a major shift like Kamahl did, but that's where your intent factors in. What you need of them in regards to red kamahl vs green kamahl.
The major thing here is that Vengeant was an Ajani of one specific time. In modern terms, you cannot summon Ajani Vengeant since he has abandoned that form and those spells. He won't do them for you because he's grown as a person.
As opposed to summoning Liliana of the Veil, who still knows all her other tricks.
But right now, you couldn't flavorfully call Garruk up except as Relentless. He has been magically impaired, cutting him off from Primal Hunter or Wildspeaker form.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Eh, as far as that goes, I don't think he'd answer e-mana with a subject line of WR.
He still has those skills, but I don't think he has the mindset for the spells anymore. After all, you have to believe in the magic you cast. If you don't, you just get a pale imitation of what you were aiming for.
That raises another question. Could you provide the red mana for him? That'll also affect Garruk, because if you summon him Primal Hunter-style, could he use your sources of green mana? Not your land cards in-game, but flavourwise, could you give him the green mana even though he can't call on his own?
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
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U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
No, you couldn't. They have to have their own mana bonds.
There's a lot of complicated things about it and I've gone over some of this before, but I'll just link you to the thread at Gleemax in which I touched on the subject.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29132485/Untap_Step
You aren't in the aether. I'm not sure where you got that from.
Nothing barring the Eldrazi and beings with the spark can survive the Blind Eternities, you cannot summon there. Anything that comes into being in the Blind Eternities will be immediately torn apart.
Anyways, if you are on a plane, you create a creature from the aether and memories. It's not really a real creature.
Thanks for the link, Bari.
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Two quick things:
1) If you're going to abbreviate, please just call me B. I really don't like Bari.
2) Oldwalkers had no ease in the Eternities either. They just punched their way through the planar veil easier to reach it.
2) Okay. I'm never quite sure on the exact powers of oldwalkers...
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
I always thought that when Planeswalkers dueled, it was in the Aether. I also thought they could survive in the Aether to travel to different planes. That's what I've been told.
On a side note, it was said the creature would be materialised through thought and knowledge, creating a new being. If you send that being away and summon it back, would it have memories of past duels and events it fought with you, or be a totally new and different creature every time you summoned it?
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Duels are always fought on planes. The only exception I can think of is when Venser killed the Weaver King. I'd think that the chaos of the Blind Eternities would pretty much tear any spell you try to cast apart.
But yes, like Barinellos said, anything with the spark (planeswalkers) can survive in the Eternities, but not indefinitely.
New and different. You recreate the creature. I suppose you could try to recreate it with those memories, but it would be your perception of those memories at best, not the actual experiences of the previous summoning.
I always liked this premise. It fits in with the concept of collection cards very nicely. You travel the mutli-verse, and you encounter different creatures and peoples. You collect them into your service, and can summon them as your army to do your bidding. This is, of course, back in the days when planeswalkers were demi-gods.
These days, however, there's a weird thing going on. Wizards is saying they don't want to flat out explain what is going on when you summon a creature, but they are also leaning heavily onto other ideas of 'mana essence' creatures (i.e. the creature is a construct of mana and not the original).
I am not a fan of summoning being a fake recreation of a creature's essence through powerful shaping of mana. I don't like it because it means the planeswalker is essentially alone, just casting powerful magic that doesn't involve other people or creatures. It means that at the end of the day, when the smoke clears as it were, a planeswalker is just a very powerful wizard who had cast a very powerful spell, and did not in fact have command of any of the creatures, possession of any of the artifacts, etc, that had been in the duel.
I'm more a fan of real armies and demi-god status.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Decks:GU Evolver, W Modern Knights
Apprentice of Spell Manipulation
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Current word from Wizards is that you can't take that Sphinx-bone wand with you to another plane. There was an article recently where they took the hypothetical question of taking a symbol of Avacyn away from Innistrad and, before saying it would be powerless on another plane, emphasized that teleportation of such an item was more or less impossible.
And again, I really object to this trend of thinking. Much more fun to imagine taking that wand, and other items, with you.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk