um since we don't have anything saying one way or another as far as to if the dragons continued attacking or not isn't it smart to not make an argument that's biased on them either doing so or not doing so?
This is a hilarious thing to say, because you were the first to bring this up as an argument in the first place.
.
no I didn't you were the one to first say that they kept attacking while they were being whipped out my response said we had nothing saying that was the case. which is not the same as claiming the opposite by the way.
nothing says the dragons were continuing to attack as their numbers dwindled in fact we have the opposite stated by them saying the khans HUNTED them to extinction. also I disagree that defense makes genocide ok it does potentially make it necessary it doesn't make it ever be right.
Bolded emphasis mine.
You made an argument based on an assumption and I called you out on the fact that it is a mere assumption and then you said that it doesn't make sense to use an argument like this to make a point.
The arcana states that the changes reflect the fact that the plane has been torn by war for more than a thousand years. Of course things are going to look different, and maybe even a bit worn out.
However, why anyone would believe that the lands would look any different under dragon rule is beyond me. Quite the opposite infact, we know the former Temur tundras are now scorched earth and the Jeskai mountains are now frozen. I'd say that's somewhat worse than what we got in the KTK timeline.
As a side note, I found the example they used to be kind of funny. If you look closely at the art of the KTK Tranquil Cove, you actually see that the grass isn't dead or anything, it's literally just harvest time, as you can see the grains on the ears of the plants in the foreground.
I think I agree with the sentiment that Tarkir is better off, but that the short-term and individual picture for it is crazy bad.
Multiverse pluses: Ugin's alive! Yay! There's a new Planeswalker! Yay! Sarkhan's not completely insane now! Neat!
Tarkir pluses: Dragons are alive! Yay! There is now potential for unity and balance! Yay!
Downsides: All previously mentioned things about it being utter crap to be human in this world. For the moment.
Also, while it may not have been intentional, I do think it interesting that the Rare Khans and Dragonlords, are in different ways, stronger than their Mythic counterparts, either in raw damage [Atarka's 12 potential at rare versus 8 at Mythic] or some ability [Yasova's theft versus Surrak's rather meh flash 'n' trample.] Not Stronger in a competitive sense, mind, but in a more generalized, out there, flavor-y sense.
um since we don't have anything saying one way or another as far as to if the dragons continued attacking or not isn't it smart to not make an argument that's biased on them either doing so or not doing so?
This is a hilarious thing to say, because you were the first to bring this up as an argument in the first place.
.
no I didn't you were the one to first say that they kept attacking while they were being whipped out my response said we had nothing saying that was the case. which is not the same as claiming the opposite by the way.
nothing says the dragons were continuing to attack as their numbers dwindled in fact we have the opposite stated by them saying the khans HUNTED them to extinction. also I disagree that defense makes genocide ok it does potentially make it necessary it doesn't make it ever be right.
Bolded emphasis mine.
You made an argument based on an assumption and I called you out on the fact that it is a mere assumption and then you said that it doesn't make sense to use an argument like this to make a point.
The arcana states that the changes reflect the fact that the plane has been torn by war for more than a thousand years. Of course things are going to look different, and maybe even a bit worn out.
However, why anyone would believe that the lands would look any different under dragon rule is beyond me. Quite the opposite infact, we know the former Temur tundras are now scorched earth and the Jeskai mountains are now frozen. I'd say that's somewhat worse than what we got in the KTK timeline.
As a side note, I found the example they used to be kind of funny. If you look closely at the art of the KTK Tranquil Cove, you actually see that the grass isn't dead or anything, it's literally just harvest time, as you can see the grains on the ears of the plants in the foreground.
seems to me you lack reading comprehension maybe if you read it a few more times you'd understand it.
Moderator Action: 0-point Warning for Flaming
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~kaburi
no seriously you need to read that bolded part over again a few times. all that bolded part says is that there is no evidence that the dragons continued attacking. there is no assumption in that statement it doesn't assume the dragon kept attacking it doesn't assume the dragons didn't keep attacking it just says there is no evidence of it.
not even close to it. a whole intelligent species was whiped completely out nothing the dragons have done is remotely comparable to genocide.
You'd have a point about genocide, if it weren't for the fact that the clans merely defended themselves. The dragons kept attacking and killing the humanoids on Tarkir and the Tarkirians -rightfully so- used lethal force to keep the dragons at bay.
If someone comes into your house and is seriously endangering your childrens' lives and you kill that intruder, no court in the civilized world will accuse you of murder, because it was clearly self-defense. The same happened on Tarkir, except on a much larger scale.
I'm biased towards humans, but it's kind of hard to feel especially bad about humans OR dragons dying when almost everything becomes a spirit and/or a zombie in the Magic universe. Exile is scary, but death has sooo many workarounds in Magic. ( Back in INN/RTR, you could put out Doomed Traveler, sac it with a Xathrid Necromancer on the battlefield, then fetch Doomed Traveler back out with Orzhov Charm, allowing a man to keep company with his own zombie and his ghost! )
I feel this ( and for that matter, the Theros ending ) are not fully resolved situations, but plots left open for a sequel.
not even close to it. a whole intelligent species was whiped completely out nothing the dragons have done is remotely comparable to genocide.
You'd have a point about genocide, if it weren't for the fact that the clans merely defended themselves. The dragons kept attacking and killing the humanoids on Tarkir and the Tarkirians -rightfully so- used lethal force to keep the dragons at bay.
If someone comes into your house and is seriously endangering your childrens' lives and you kill that intruder, no court in the civilized world will accuse you of murder, because it was clearly self-defense. The same happened on Tarkir, except on a much larger scale.
also from the post before the post you quoted bolded for emphasis.
Considering neither my post nor the one I was quoting was talking about the dragons' behaviour after the storms stopped, I fail to see why you assume I did talk about that. The "kept attacking" was refering to how the dragons never stopped waging war on the Tarkirians while they still had the choice.
Well, with the new Planeswalkers' Guide segment...The Dromoka order isn't THAT bad, although the persecution of those who'd honor their ancestors--or try to acknowledge blood relations, for that matter--is very real. Cultish, although not to the Ojutai order's point. Dromoka seems more like a feudal lord who can't imagine a better way for dragons and humanoids to interact.
The Kolaghan order...oy. Alesha's gauge was VERY far off the mark. I'm not sure who's more psychotic--Rakdos, or Kolaghan. While my understanding of honor is a bit different from the Mardu's (which looked more like glory than honor), the new order is basically a bunch of willful marauders. The Atarka order isn't much different, just with wildlife rather than sapients as the targets. And admittedly, Yasova's idea of a deal went south fast as Atarka's desires became more obvious.
So, while on the whole Tarkir 1.1 is better off, it's not by much. And it's well away from Dominaria, Shandalar, Kamigawa, or Alara in quality of life, whether we're talking 1.0 or 1.1. To be honest, I think ultimate blame goes not to Bolas or Yasova, but to Ugin himself, for creating that balance-through-deadlock in the first place. Instead of balance through symbiosis or even commensalism, he set it up via what is essentially a constant stalemate--a constant conflict. BOTH sides became overused to battle and violence. And given that balance and equilibrium are pretty much the only things we know Ugin to value, the means probably wasn't important to him. Granted that Ugin's survival is good for Dominia as a whole, but I fear he isn't exactly a virtue elemental. Although whether he sees himself as a virtue elemental is another story.
not even close to it. a whole intelligent species was whiped completely out nothing the dragons have done is remotely comparable to genocide.
You'd have a point about genocide, if it weren't for the fact that the clans merely defended themselves. The dragons kept attacking and killing the humanoids on Tarkir and the Tarkirians -rightfully so- used lethal force to keep the dragons at bay.
If someone comes into your house and is seriously endangering your childrens' lives and you kill that intruder, no court in the civilized world will accuse you of murder, because it was clearly self-defense. The same happened on Tarkir, except on a much larger scale.
also from the post before the post you quoted bolded for emphasis.
Considering neither my post nor the one I was quoting was talking about the dragons' behaviour after the storms stopped, I fail to see why you assume I did talk about that. The "kept attacking" was refering to how the dragons never stopped waging war on the Tarkirians while they still had the choice.
I assumed it was talking about after the storms stopped because you quoted my post referring to genocide which happened after the storms stopped and said that the khans were just defending them selves. also the dragons never stopped having the choice of if they would continue to attack or not until they were completely whipped out.
Tarkir is clearly a worse place to be alive if you aren't a non-dragon. I can't fathom how ANYONE could say otherwise. You're literally a second-class citizen everywhere if you don't have wings and a tail.
Let's see what dragons being around have caused:
1. Mammoths are extinct
2. Less elementals roam the land due to a weakened ecosystem
3. Bears have been hunted to near extinction
4A. The remains of the Temur have lost their clan unity and are constantly on the hunt in an unsustainable way. If they don't provide food, they become food.
4B. Ojutai's dragons can eat any member of the clan and serve no repercussions for their actions. Everyone is restricted to following the path Ojutai set for them and can't be their own people.
4C. Mardu lost their clan unity and are cannibals now lol.
4D. Abzan stopped taking in Krumar and are now fighting and dying in the names of dragons.
4E. Even the Sultai have it worse, considering now they're ruled by something they have no hope of dethroning.
The dragons are literally destroying the plane's ecosystem, and has enslaved everyone on it. How can anyone argue that life is better there? lol
No one ever had a chance of dethroning the Rakshasa either.
Not the Rakshasa, who were content to govern from the shadows, but the Naga. The random human could rise in rank enough to be trouble, like a Taigam to a Sidisi. You have NO hope of dethroning Silumgar and his dragons.
So, while on the whole Tarkir 1.1 is better off, it's not by much. And it's well away from Dominaria, Shandalar, Kamigawa, or Alara in quality of life, whether we're talking 1.0 or 1.1.
Let's be brutally honest here: We haven't seen a single plane in the multiverse that is a nice place to live in. There are planes that are less worse than others, but you can get killed literally everywhere.
The closest to a "safe" world is probably pre-conflux Bant, but they had wars even there.
To be honest, I think ultimate blame goes not to Bolas or Yasova, but to Ugin himself, for creating that balance-through-deadlock in the first place. Instead of balance through symbiosis or even commensalism, he set it up via what is essentially a constant stalemate--a constant conflict. BOTH sides became overused to battle and violence. And given that balance and equilibrium are pretty much the only things we know Ugin to value, the means probably wasn't important to him. Granted that Ugin's survival is good for Dominia as a whole, but I fear he isn't exactly a virtue elemental. Although whether he sees himself as a virtue elemental is another story.
Do we actually know for a fact that Ugin actively balanced the khans with the dragons? As I remember it, it is a mere fan theory, explaining how in one timeline the khans took over and in the other the dragons.
I fear that if people keep stating this as fact, it becomes another huge uproar later in when WotC "retcons" something, that was never canon to begin with.
I'm not sure who's more psychotic--Rakdos, or Kolaghan.
Kolaghan by a mile. Radkos just wants to be entertained.
I don't know. In Rakdos' eyes slaughter, torture and ritual sacrifice is considered entertainment. I find that to be way more psychotic than "just" killing other people.
No one ever had a chance of dethroning the Rakshasa either.
Not the Rakshasa, who were content to govern from the shadows, but the Naga. The random human could rise in rank enough to be trouble, like a Taigam to a Sidisi. You have NO hope of dethroning Silumgar and his dragons.
Well, technically the khan was never the highest being in the Sultai, since the Rakshasa had all the power and only gave it to the khan out of their own volition. The Rakshasa were really pulling the strings behind everything the Sultai did.
I mean, I agree with you that generally Tarkir is worse off for the Tarkirians, but in the Sultai's case I don't think anything of significance has changed.
The closest to a "safe" world is probably pre-conflux Bant, but they had wars even there.
Well one could make the argument that Lorwyn isn't so bad and it's Lorwyn for 300 years at a time before Shadowmoor flips over. Pre-Conflux Bant or Naya I think would have been fine too honestly. And if you want the honest truth, Theros in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem horrible either. At least before Xenagos starts acting up. The average Meletian is unlikely to deal with monsters and danger much more than the average person in a large fantasy city uninvolved in massive, plane shaping events. Akros and Setessa seem slightly more dangerous but all warrior cultures were dangerous. Top it off, I don't remember hearing about grand scale conflicts between the mortal city states as they were militarily more concerned with dealing with the monsters and Leonin. Yes you run the risk of running afoul of some diety but most humans on earth already feel like they're doing that anyway.
The closest to a "safe" world is probably pre-conflux Bant, but they had wars even there.
Well one could make the argument that Lorwyn isn't so bad and it's Lorwyn for 300 years at a time before Shadowmoor flips over. Pre-Conflux Bant or Naya I think would have been fine too honestly. And if you want the honest truth, Theros in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem horrible either. At least before Xenagos starts acting up. The average Meletian is unlikely to deal with monsters and danger much more than the average person in a large fantasy city uninvolved in massive, plane shaping events. Akros and Setessa seem slightly more dangerous but all warrior cultures were dangerous. Top it off, I don't remember hearing about grand scale conflicts between the mortal city states as they were militarily more concerned with dealing with the monsters and Leonin. Yes you run the risk of running afoul of some diety but most humans on earth already feel like they're doing that anyway.
I was thinking about Lorwyn, but honestly, there seem to be more ways to die than on planes riddled with monsters. Getting killed by elves, because you're an eyeblight; stepped on by a giant; getting killed by accident by a boggart prank gone awry... It's certainly less dangerous than your average world, but I think pre-conflux Bant would be safer.
As for Naya, you'd probably end up the meal of some wild animal sooner or later, at least until you're flattened by a gargantua.
And on Theros you can be turned into a harpy, simply because you fall in love with the wrong person.
Sure, I'd pick those places over 90% of the other planes available, but honestly they still don't sound safe to me. Or maybe I just have high self-preservation standards.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
The closest to a "safe" world is probably pre-conflux Bant, but they had wars even there.
Well one could make the argument that Lorwyn isn't so bad and it's Lorwyn for 300 years at a time before Shadowmoor flips over. Pre-Conflux Bant or Naya I think would have been fine too honestly. And if you want the honest truth, Theros in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem horrible either. At least before Xenagos starts acting up. The average Meletian is unlikely to deal with monsters and danger much more than the average person in a large fantasy city uninvolved in massive, plane shaping events. Akros and Setessa seem slightly more dangerous but all warrior cultures were dangerous. Top it off, I don't remember hearing about grand scale conflicts between the mortal city states as they were militarily more concerned with dealing with the monsters and Leonin. Yes you run the risk of running afoul of some diety but most humans on earth already feel like they're doing that anyway.
I was thinking about Lorwyn, but honestly, there seem to be more ways to die than on planes riddled with monsters. Getting killed by elves, because you're an eyeblight; stepped on by a giant; getting killed by accident by a boggart prank gone awry... It's certainly less dangerous than your average world, but I think pre-conflux Bant would be safer.
As for Naya, you'd probably end up the meal of some wild animal sooner or later, at least until you're flattened by a gargantua.
And on Theros you can be turned into a harpy, simply because you fall in love with the wrong person.
Sure, I'd pick those places over 90% of the other planes available, but honestly they still don't sound safe to me. Or maybe I just have high self-preservation standards.
Nothing wrong with high self preservation standards. I think my view on it is kind of skewed honestly since due to some unfortunate statistics of where I live AND certain factors of my personality I'm amazed I've lived this long. I'm kind of in a constant state of slightly elevated danger anyway. And I'm factoring in on Theros and Naya and Lorwyn for example that there's a certain level of probability involved. I mean, that Theros thing happened once that we saw. Yeah the gods are petty as hell on Theros but I'd be willing to take my chances as that situation is probably something akin to getting struck by lightning in our world. Incidentally, getting struck by lightning is probably more common on Theros thanks to Keranos.
The big factor though in these is I'm assuming average person growing up in one of these worlds. The dangers are internalized and tactics for mitigating and avoiding them would be taught by the parents and elders of whatever environment you were in. I mean, I think most children on Naya are taught that when the ground shakes they need to be up in the trees or something. On Theros we know kids are taught to beware of the returned in the same way we're taught stranger danger in the U.S.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
Wasn't that Scars of Mirrodin?
I'm also pretty sure the infighting in BFZ will be kept at a minimum.
The big factor though in these is I'm assuming average person growing up in one of these worlds. The dangers are internalized and tactics for mitigating and avoiding them would be taught by the parents and elders of whatever environment you were in. I mean, I think most children on Naya are taught that when the ground shakes they need to be up in the trees or something. On Theros we know kids are taught to beware of the returned in the same way we're taught stranger danger in the U.S.
We totally forgot Fiora, right? As long as you stay the hell away from all that intrigue and backstabbing, it should be a fine place to be?
Yes The Dromoka will eventually outlast the others with Ojutai retaining some influence because i can't see both of them having mutch conflict with each other
I considered Fiora but Muzzio's constructs actually puts me off of that world. As someone who likes his secrets and knows the value of eyes and ears nobody notices (unlike most people I'm aware the best spies are maintenance and cleaning staff and regularly talk to, notice and engage them) Fiora actually scares me in a way few other planes do. Fiora is a world where my "average inhabitant" thing doesn't work as well because I'm assuming myself, as I am, as an average citizen in one of those world. On Fiora you can be in danger from being too smart and frankly, I ask too many questions.
That said Flisch I think Fiora might end up on the list.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
I miss the days when stories weren't all about the destruction of the local world and/or threats to the Multiverse. Stories about changing conditions on a continent (Fallen Empires), striving to defeat a petty conqueror (Mirage), attempting to free a member of a ship's crew and good old-fashioned swashbuckling (Weatherlight Saga pre-Invasion), even planewide events like a conspiracy against the guilds (Ravnica), a quest to find a missing sun (Mirrodin), a war with the local spirits/deities (Kamigawa, Theros) or surviving a time of transition (Lorwyn). With the exception of Theros and Innistrad, pretty much all the recent stories have to be about threats to the very existence of planes or the multiverse.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
I miss the days when stories weren't all about the destruction of the local world and/or threats to the Multiverse. Stories about changing conditions on a continent (Fallen Empires), striving to defeat a petty conqueror (Mirage), attempting to free a member of a ship's crew and good old-fashioned swashbuckling (Weatherlight Saga pre-Invasion), even planewide events like a conspiracy against the guilds (Ravnica), a quest to find a missing sun (Mirrodin), a war with the local spirits/deities (Kamigawa, Theros) or surviving a time of transition (Lorwyn). With the exception of Theros and Innistrad, pretty much all the recent stories have to be about threats to the very existence of planes or the multiverse.
Return to Ravnica was all about the multiverse going belly up, am I right? Or Alara... And Kahns of Tarkir...
The only blocks in recent history that feature multiverse-threatening dangers is Zendikar and Scars of Mirrodin. I guess you could count Tarkir, for Ugin being dead, but that was actually solved by the end of the block.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
I miss the days when stories weren't all about the destruction of the local world and/or threats to the Multiverse. Stories about changing conditions on a continent (Fallen Empires), striving to defeat a petty conqueror (Mirage), attempting to free a member of a ship's crew and good old-fashioned swashbuckling (Weatherlight Saga pre-Invasion), even planewide events like a conspiracy against the guilds (Ravnica), a quest to find a missing sun (Mirrodin), a war with the local spirits/deities (Kamigawa, Theros) or surviving a time of transition (Lorwyn). With the exception of Theros and Innistrad, pretty much all the recent stories have to be about threats to the very existence of planes or the multiverse.
Return to Ravnica was all about the multiverse going belly up, am I right?
Not the multiverse, but it was about the plane being wiped out - the race to stop the Supreme Verdict triggering before it annihilated everyone, as I recall.
Or Alara...
Alara was a little before this recent obsession with apocalyptic storylines.
And Kahns of Tarkir...
Not in and of itself, but they're trying pretty hard to tie it to the Eldrazi story, precisely by resurrecting Ugin.
Alara kind of was a story about saving the Multiverse if you consider Nicol Bolas one of the Multiverse-spanning threats on par with the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi (which Creative does).
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Bolded emphasis mine.
You made an argument based on an assumption and I called you out on the fact that it is a mere assumption and then you said that it doesn't make sense to use an argument like this to make a point.
I found that to be pretty ironic.
The arcana states that the changes reflect the fact that the plane has been torn by war for more than a thousand years. Of course things are going to look different, and maybe even a bit worn out.
However, why anyone would believe that the lands would look any different under dragon rule is beyond me. Quite the opposite infact, we know the former Temur tundras are now scorched earth and the Jeskai mountains are now frozen. I'd say that's somewhat worse than what we got in the KTK timeline.
As a side note, I found the example they used to be kind of funny. If you look closely at the art of the KTK Tranquil Cove, you actually see that the grass isn't dead or anything, it's literally just harvest time, as you can see the grains on the ears of the plants in the foreground.
Multiverse pluses: Ugin's alive! Yay! There's a new Planeswalker! Yay! Sarkhan's not completely insane now! Neat!
Tarkir pluses: Dragons are alive! Yay! There is now potential for unity and balance! Yay!
Downsides: All previously mentioned things about it being utter crap to be human in this world. For the moment.
Also, while it may not have been intentional, I do think it interesting that the Rare Khans and Dragonlords, are in different ways, stronger than their Mythic counterparts, either in raw damage [Atarka's 12 potential at rare versus 8 at Mythic] or some ability [Yasova's theft versus Surrak's rather meh flash 'n' trample.] Not Stronger in a competitive sense, mind, but in a more generalized, out there, flavor-y sense.
seems to me you lack reading comprehension maybe if you read it a few more times you'd understand it.
Moderator Action: 0-point Warning for Flaming
Per MTG Salvation forum rules, it's fine to attack the idea, but attacking the person is flaming.
~kaburi
no seriously you need to read that bolded part over again a few times. all that bolded part says is that there is no evidence that the dragons continued attacking. there is no assumption in that statement it doesn't assume the dragon kept attacking it doesn't assume the dragons didn't keep attacking it just says there is no evidence of it.
also from the post before the post you quoted bolded for emphasis.
I'm biased towards humans, but it's kind of hard to feel especially bad about humans OR dragons dying when almost everything becomes a spirit and/or a zombie in the Magic universe. Exile is scary, but death has sooo many workarounds in Magic. ( Back in INN/RTR, you could put out Doomed Traveler, sac it with a Xathrid Necromancer on the battlefield, then fetch Doomed Traveler back out with Orzhov Charm, allowing a man to keep company with his own zombie and his ghost! )
I feel this ( and for that matter, the Theros ending ) are not fully resolved situations, but plots left open for a sequel.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
Considering neither my post nor the one I was quoting was talking about the dragons' behaviour after the storms stopped, I fail to see why you assume I did talk about that. The "kept attacking" was refering to how the dragons never stopped waging war on the Tarkirians while they still had the choice.
The Kolaghan order...oy. Alesha's gauge was VERY far off the mark. I'm not sure who's more psychotic--Rakdos, or Kolaghan. While my understanding of honor is a bit different from the Mardu's (which looked more like glory than honor), the new order is basically a bunch of willful marauders. The Atarka order isn't much different, just with wildlife rather than sapients as the targets. And admittedly, Yasova's idea of a deal went south fast as Atarka's desires became more obvious.
So, while on the whole Tarkir 1.1 is better off, it's not by much. And it's well away from Dominaria, Shandalar, Kamigawa, or Alara in quality of life, whether we're talking 1.0 or 1.1. To be honest, I think ultimate blame goes not to Bolas or Yasova, but to Ugin himself, for creating that balance-through-deadlock in the first place. Instead of balance through symbiosis or even commensalism, he set it up via what is essentially a constant stalemate--a constant conflict. BOTH sides became overused to battle and violence. And given that balance and equilibrium are pretty much the only things we know Ugin to value, the means probably wasn't important to him. Granted that Ugin's survival is good for Dominia as a whole, but I fear he isn't exactly a virtue elemental. Although whether he sees himself as a virtue elemental is another story.
I assumed it was talking about after the storms stopped because you quoted my post referring to genocide which happened after the storms stopped and said that the khans were just defending them selves. also the dragons never stopped having the choice of if they would continue to attack or not until they were completely whipped out.
She seems to have been right as far as I can tell, Kolaghan doesn't want to lead.
Kolaghan by a mile. Radkos just wants to be entertained.
kolaghan and it's followers worse off if barely
atarka and its clan worse off by a ways
silumgar and its clan about the same
ojutai and its clan much better off
dromoka and its clan much better off
tarkir on the whole better off by a ways but still not a great place to be.
Let's see what dragons being around have caused:
1. Mammoths are extinct
2. Less elementals roam the land due to a weakened ecosystem
3. Bears have been hunted to near extinction
4A. The remains of the Temur have lost their clan unity and are constantly on the hunt in an unsustainable way. If they don't provide food, they become food.
4B. Ojutai's dragons can eat any member of the clan and serve no repercussions for their actions. Everyone is restricted to following the path Ojutai set for them and can't be their own people.
4C. Mardu lost their clan unity and are cannibals now lol.
4D. Abzan stopped taking in Krumar and are now fighting and dying in the names of dragons.
4E. Even the Sultai have it worse, considering now they're ruled by something they have no hope of dethroning.
The dragons are literally destroying the plane's ecosystem, and has enslaved everyone on it. How can anyone argue that life is better there? lol
Your mods are terrified of me.
No, just fewer elements being summoned. If anything the deal Atarka made at Qadat has benefited the Efreet.
Lateral move.
No one ever had a chance of dethroning the Rakshasa either.
Whisperwood Elemental and other tree elementals are no longer there because the megaconifers aren't able to grow in Temur lands.
Sure, dying for dragons who are higher in position than you is equivalent to dying for people you considered family, and doing so of your volition.
Not the Rakshasa, who were content to govern from the shadows, but the Naga. The random human could rise in rank enough to be trouble, like a Taigam to a Sidisi. You have NO hope of dethroning Silumgar and his dragons.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Let's be brutally honest here: We haven't seen a single plane in the multiverse that is a nice place to live in. There are planes that are less worse than others, but you can get killed literally everywhere.
The closest to a "safe" world is probably pre-conflux Bant, but they had wars even there.
Do we actually know for a fact that Ugin actively balanced the khans with the dragons? As I remember it, it is a mere fan theory, explaining how in one timeline the khans took over and in the other the dragons.
I fear that if people keep stating this as fact, it becomes another huge uproar later in when WotC "retcons" something, that was never canon to begin with.
I don't know. In Rakdos' eyes slaughter, torture and ritual sacrifice is considered entertainment. I find that to be way more psychotic than "just" killing other people.
Not by much though, but still.
Well, technically the khan was never the highest being in the Sultai, since the Rakshasa had all the power and only gave it to the khan out of their own volition. The Rakshasa were really pulling the strings behind everything the Sultai did.
I mean, I agree with you that generally Tarkir is worse off for the Tarkirians, but in the Sultai's case I don't think anything of significance has changed.
Well one could make the argument that Lorwyn isn't so bad and it's Lorwyn for 300 years at a time before Shadowmoor flips over. Pre-Conflux Bant or Naya I think would have been fine too honestly. And if you want the honest truth, Theros in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem horrible either. At least before Xenagos starts acting up. The average Meletian is unlikely to deal with monsters and danger much more than the average person in a large fantasy city uninvolved in massive, plane shaping events. Akros and Setessa seem slightly more dangerous but all warrior cultures were dangerous. Top it off, I don't remember hearing about grand scale conflicts between the mortal city states as they were militarily more concerned with dealing with the monsters and Leonin. Yes you run the risk of running afoul of some diety but most humans on earth already feel like they're doing that anyway.
I was thinking about Lorwyn, but honestly, there seem to be more ways to die than on planes riddled with monsters. Getting killed by elves, because you're an eyeblight; stepped on by a giant; getting killed by accident by a boggart prank gone awry... It's certainly less dangerous than your average world, but I think pre-conflux Bant would be safer.
As for Naya, you'd probably end up the meal of some wild animal sooner or later, at least until you're flattened by a gargantua.
And on Theros you can be turned into a harpy, simply because you fall in love with the wrong person.
Sure, I'd pick those places over 90% of the other planes available, but honestly they still don't sound safe to me. Or maybe I just have high self-preservation standards.
I would like to see a block about the plane working together against a common foe. Maybe that's too boring though. I just miss pre-mending epic epics.
If anything, I'm sure BFZ will be less about infighting.
Nothing wrong with high self preservation standards. I think my view on it is kind of skewed honestly since due to some unfortunate statistics of where I live AND certain factors of my personality I'm amazed I've lived this long. I'm kind of in a constant state of slightly elevated danger anyway. And I'm factoring in on Theros and Naya and Lorwyn for example that there's a certain level of probability involved. I mean, that Theros thing happened once that we saw. Yeah the gods are petty as hell on Theros but I'd be willing to take my chances as that situation is probably something akin to getting struck by lightning in our world. Incidentally, getting struck by lightning is probably more common on Theros thanks to Keranos.
The big factor though in these is I'm assuming average person growing up in one of these worlds. The dangers are internalized and tactics for mitigating and avoiding them would be taught by the parents and elders of whatever environment you were in. I mean, I think most children on Naya are taught that when the ground shakes they need to be up in the trees or something. On Theros we know kids are taught to beware of the returned in the same way we're taught stranger danger in the U.S.
Which is why we'll never see an utopia-like plane. At least not in a core product.
Wasn't that Scars of Mirrodin?
I'm also pretty sure the infighting in BFZ will be kept at a minimum.
We totally forgot Fiora, right? As long as you stay the hell away from all that intrigue and backstabbing, it should be a fine place to be?
That said Flisch I think Fiora might end up on the list.
I miss the days when stories weren't all about the destruction of the local world and/or threats to the Multiverse. Stories about changing conditions on a continent (Fallen Empires), striving to defeat a petty conqueror (Mirage), attempting to free a member of a ship's crew and good old-fashioned swashbuckling (Weatherlight Saga pre-Invasion), even planewide events like a conspiracy against the guilds (Ravnica), a quest to find a missing sun (Mirrodin), a war with the local spirits/deities (Kamigawa, Theros) or surviving a time of transition (Lorwyn). With the exception of Theros and Innistrad, pretty much all the recent stories have to be about threats to the very existence of planes or the multiverse.
Return to Ravnica was all about the multiverse going belly up, am I right? Or Alara... And Kahns of Tarkir...
The only blocks in recent history that feature multiverse-threatening dangers is Zendikar and Scars of Mirrodin. I guess you could count Tarkir, for Ugin being dead, but that was actually solved by the end of the block.
Not the multiverse, but it was about the plane being wiped out - the race to stop the Supreme Verdict triggering before it annihilated everyone, as I recall.
Alara was a little before this recent obsession with apocalyptic storylines.
Not in and of itself, but they're trying pretty hard to tie it to the Eldrazi story, precisely by resurrecting Ugin.