I think he might mean it's more that we're missing stories that don't involve the entire plane being in peril. Return to Ravnica was about the potential destruction of the world. The trailer had Ral Zarek say that the world was threatened with all out war.
So how should we treat elves, merfolk, goblins, vedalken, and the numerous other fantasy races that aren't human?
Oh, and Tarkir is better off. Its worse short term for most humanoids and at least most of the clans, but a LOT better for the dragons, who should be accounted for. But even more than that, in the new timeline, while things generally suck, they are capable of being fixed, whereas in the Khans timeline, the situation was doomed. The Clans were set to destroy each other in war, life on the plane was dying, and the land was dying, and there was no way to change it without changing the past. Under the dragons, most of the problems remain, but the land is no longer dying, and the solution to the problems actually exists because Ugin is alive. Things can improve in this timeline, whereas before everything was doomed to suck forever as the plane circled the drain.
First point: Fully embracing their core colors. Humans tend to exhibit a bit of everything. Make your iconic race examples hardline adherents to the facets of their core color. It allows them to come across as strange to us humans while being well-rounded. Seeing as humans are some of the most resourceful animals in terms of manipulating our environment, I see where you can justify spreading humans across all five colors. It represents that resourcefulness.
I never saw any cards or Uncharted Realms articles depicting that the land was worse off in KTK timeline.
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Alara kind of was a story about saving the Multiverse if you consider Nicol Bolas one of the Multiverse-spanning threats on par with the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi (which Creative does).
And it was implied that if Ajani didn't interfere, he would have continued to feed on the maelstrom until the plane was dead.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think a reason for the shift in focus to world-threatening dangers in every set is due in part to the modern focus on planeswalkers as protagonists. Simple adventure stories with limited stakes don't work with powerful protagonists who always has the option to say "Screw you all, I'm out of here."
I think a reason for the shift in focus to world-threatening dangers in every set is due in part to the modern focus on planeswalkers as protagonists. Simple adventure stories with limited stakes don't work with powerful protagonists who always has the option to say "Screw you all, I'm out of here."
Could be, but then the Weatherlight crew had the same option and only the final part of that story was a 'plane in peril'. They can always provide anchors to prevent the heroes leaving; an obligation, a character in need of rescue. Mercadian Masques, for all that it was a terrible set, had a pretty good storyline in that regard.
So how should we treat elves, merfolk, goblins, vedalken, and the numerous other fantasy races that aren't human?
Oh, and Tarkir is better off. Its worse short term for most humanoids and at least most of the clans, but a LOT better for the dragons, who should be accounted for. But even more than that, in the new timeline, while things generally suck, they are capable of being fixed, whereas in the Khans timeline, the situation was doomed. The Clans were set to destroy each other in war, life on the plane was dying, and the land was dying, and there was no way to change it without changing the past. Under the dragons, most of the problems remain, but the land is no longer dying, and the solution to the problems actually exists because Ugin is alive. Things can improve in this timeline, whereas before everything was doomed to suck forever as the plane circled the drain.
First point: Fully embracing their core colors. Humans tend to exhibit a bit of everything. Make your iconic race examples hardline adherents to the facets of their core color. It allows them to come across as strange to us humans while being well-rounded. Seeing as humans are some of the most resourceful animals in terms of manipulating our environment, I see where you can justify spreading humans across all five colors. It represents that resourcefulness.
I never saw any cards or Uncharted Realms articles depicting that the land was worse off in KTK timeline.
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
No, I talked about how it makes them alien to humans. They haven't exhibited the sort of violent, extreme morality of the dragons. The first point addresses your question about the other iconic creatures and how they are treated. Please read the posts that you will be quoting. Our discussion will flow more smoothly if you'd take the time.
This, right here. The dragons are evil and they need to be stopped.
....
In all seriousness, this is certainly a better Tarkir for its tyrannical overlords. As for humans, their general livelihood is a bit worse, but not by so much. It was always tough to be a Temur, and life as a Mardu tended to be nasty, brutish, and short anyway. In Tarkir 1.0, it sucked to be a human Sultai (unless you were Tiagam), but in Tarkir 2.0, humans have a better lot under Silumgar than they ever did under the Naga. The Ojutai and the Dromoka clans seem healthy and happy enough--the gross injustices they once suffered bear little impact on their present-day comfort/prosperity.
All that said, Tarkir 1.0 was better overall. Better for humans to be locked in eternal war than bent in perpetual subjugation.
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
It's been said before in this thread, but I'd like to say that I agree. FRF Tarkir had dragons attacking humans almost constantly. Each clan had their own way of protecting themselves and taking down dragons. Yasova pointed out that she is tired of watching her people get killed off by dragons. I can only imagine that fatigue also existed among the other clans. In my mind, humans aren't killing dragons for sport or for food, but to just survive. Dragons, in my mind, weren't killing humans to preserve their own existence, but killing humans for sport/food. So when the dragon tempests stopped, humans saw an opportunity to finally be able to sleep soundly at night without fear of a dragon dropping from the sky on them. I don't blame them. That kind of life seems pretty terrifying. Dragons eventually became extinct, but you're telling me that dragons couldn't have hidden from humans somewhere, in unreachable mountains, or hidden swamps, or whatever matches up to their color focus? I mean, how does NO dragon survive? Were the humans just roving hunting squads for hundreds of years, pulling up grass and rocks and knocking on caves to find the last dragon? And then how would they even know if they got the last dragon? My gut tells me that to the last dragon, the dragons had to seek conflict with humans to the very end, for dragons to have all been eliminated. Imagine trying to find the last living sample of a species on the planet, without knowing if it's still out there, or if there are more than one. The only way you would know is by crossing paths with it. Dragons aren't stupid, and likely to be able to avoid humans if they didn't want conflict/death.
With that tangent done, I can understand the desire to be rid of dragons. As a bad example, say there's a disease killing off humans. Enough survive to keep the race going, but humans are dropping every day to it. You can create a vaccine. Wouldn't you want to completely eliminate that disease so that no one would ever have to die from that disease again? With that in mind, the dragons wouldn't feel the same way towards humans because, with increased numbers from roiling dragon tempests, they have a distinct advantage. So why kill those who can become your slaves/servants/sycophants/worshipers/etc.? Why not live the good life?
And in regard to why Ugin would engineer (if he did) a constant stalemate between dragons and humans...I had a probably wrong idea. Ugin was still an oldwalker back then. Oldwalkers could transport individuals with them through the Blind Eternities, and Ugin was a powerful one. What if Ugin knew that the constant fighting would strengthen both sides to a sharp edge, just in case he needed his own private army for some reason? Probably wrong, but it is appealing to me.
It's been said before in this thread, but I'd like to say that I agree. FRF Tarkir had dragons attacking humans almost constantly. Each clan had their own way of protecting themselves and taking down dragons. Yasova pointed out that she is tired of watching her people get killed off by dragons. I can only imagine that fatigue also existed among the other clans. In my mind, humans aren't killing dragons for sport or for food, but to just survive. Dragons, in my mind, weren't killing humans to preserve their own existence, but killing humans for sport/food. So when the dragon tempests stopped, humans saw an opportunity to finally be able to sleep soundly at night without fear of a dragon dropping from the sky on them. I don't blame them. That kind of life seems pretty terrifying.
I imagine this changes from brood to brood, but Dromoka is pretty clear on the reasons she has for attacking the Abzan:
Abzan kill dragons.
Abzan use a type of magic she deems abominable.
Once they stop these two things, she is ok with humans. In fact, ww know her brood raised humans as servants even before the Abzan surrendered.
Atarka does sound like the type to attack humans for food/sport. But she was probably afraid of shamans and their elementals as well.
Kolaghan probably attacked the Mardu because she pleased. And probably because they were too orderly.
Ojutai seemingly was angry about the humans killing dragons as well.
Silumgar probably attacked Sultai because he wanted their treasures.
Dragons eventually became extinct, but you're telling me that dragons couldn't have hidden from humans somewhere, in unreachable mountains, or hidden swamps, or whatever matches up to their color focus? I mean, how does NO dragon survive? Were the humans just roving hunting squads for hundreds of years, pulling up grass and rocks and knocking on caves to find the last dragon? And then how would they even know if they got the last dragon? My gut tells me that to the last dragon, the dragons had to seek conflict with humans to the very end, for dragons to have all been eliminated. Imagine trying to find the last living sample of a species on the planet, without knowing if it's still out there, or if there are more than one. The only way you would know is by crossing paths with it. Dragons aren't stupid, and likely to be able to avoid humans if they didn't want conflict/death.
I have discussed this before, in another thread several years ago, but judging from their size, and assuming they have a "bird of prey"-like metabolism, Dragons would have to ingest several tons of meat every day. That wouldn't allow them to remain hidden in a specific location, as they would run out of prey very quickly. A dragon who is not powered by magic, would demand hunting grounds larger than a whole mountain.
I am frankly of the opinion that humans would hunt dragons to extinction in any kind of setting where both coexist in the same environment. It would be basically the first thing you have to do before you can consider urbanizing an area.
All I can gather is that Sarkhan is a huge douche, he was part of releasing the eldrazi because of his love for dragons got him helping bolas (and sure some other stuff out of his control) and now he goes back in time and ruins everybody's life to bring back his beloved dragons.
All I can gather is that Sarkhan is a huge douche, he was part of releasing the eldrazi because of his love for dragons got him helping bolas (and sure some other stuff out of his control) and now he goes back in time and ruins everybody's life to bring back his beloved dragons.
Sarkhan, for all his bravado, actually WANTS to be a dragon's ***** and doesn't mind making an entire plane of humans the same way, whether they like it or not.
It's almost as if Sarkhan is just a protagonist and NOT a good guy. I think showing just how truly depraved and insane Sarkhans worldview is while still having him be the face of the block is excellent storytelling (although it doesn't excuse how terriblely written the clans/dragonlords are).
Dragons eventually became extinct, but you're telling me that dragons couldn't have hidden from humans somewhere, in unreachable mountains, or hidden swamps, or whatever matches up to their color focus? I mean, how does NO dragon survive? Were the humans just roving hunting squads for hundreds of years, pulling up grass and rocks and knocking on caves to find the last dragon? And then how would they even know if they got the last dragon?
Dragons aren't like mice or something. They're the size of buildings. Look at Destructor Dragon, its head alone is the size of a mammoth. If they are like the "average" reptile on earth ((unlikely for such active predators but they're magical) they need about 5.6 Cal per kg (that's in dietary calories). A dragon of that size, say 35 meters long, would weight on the order of 500000 kg. Its dietary needs would be the same as hundreds of humans.
Even if it could physically hide (which is unlikely) it wouldn't be able to stay in one place for long.
Dragon Tempest show it can spawn at least 5 dragons a pop, given the way the Atarka brood devours everything since 1280 years with their numbers growing and humanoid hunters dwindling, I guess the old Temur lands are close to wildlife extinction and they'll need to move into other territories, which might spark a dragon war?
All I can gather is that Sarkhan is a huge douche, he was part of releasing the eldrazi because of his love for dragons got him helping bolas (and sure some other stuff out of his control) and now he goes back in time and ruins everybody's life to bring back his beloved dragons.
Sarkhan, for all his bravado, actually WANTS to be a dragon's ***** and doesn't mind making an entire plane of humans the same way, whether they like it or not.
Pathetic.
Well, he did just have his epiphany (from his perspective, mere hours ago) that he'd always fail so long as he sought guidance, rather than truth. He's really nowhere near an Ubermensch, since such a one determines right and wrong all by themselves, although I wouldn't classify him as a Lentzenmensch, either. The problem in his case is that he's come to the conclusion that there's a Correct Answer somewhere in the multiverse, and dragons, being the ultimate creatures, must have it; else they wouldn't be ultimate.
In a sense, I think he's so determined to be strong and powerful, that he's forgotten to ask what the purpose of strength and power is. Maybe his subconscious goals are a negative image of that--his real goal is to remove himself from weakness as much as he can.
So how should we treat elves, merfolk, goblins, vedalken, and the numerous other fantasy races that aren't human?
Oh, and Tarkir is better off. Its worse short term for most humanoids and at least most of the clans, but a LOT better for the dragons, who should be accounted for. But even more than that, in the new timeline, while things generally suck, they are capable of being fixed, whereas in the Khans timeline, the situation was doomed. The Clans were set to destroy each other in war, life on the plane was dying, and the land was dying, and there was no way to change it without changing the past. Under the dragons, most of the problems remain, but the land is no longer dying, and the solution to the problems actually exists because Ugin is alive. Things can improve in this timeline, whereas before everything was doomed to suck forever as the plane circled the drain.
First point: Fully embracing their core colors. Humans tend to exhibit a bit of everything. Make your iconic race examples hardline adherents to the facets of their core color. It allows them to come across as strange to us humans while being well-rounded. Seeing as humans are some of the most resourceful animals in terms of manipulating our environment, I see where you can justify spreading humans across all five colors. It represents that resourcefulness.
I never saw any cards or Uncharted Realms articles depicting that the land was worse off in KTK timeline.
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
No, I talked about how it makes them alien to humans. They haven't exhibited the sort of violent, extreme morality of the dragons. The first point addresses your question about the other iconic creatures and how they are treated. Please read the posts that you will be quoting. Our discussion will flow more smoothly if you'd take the time.
Sorry, but you're first point really did not address what I said at all. Yeah, you made a point about how their adherence to their colors makes them seem alien to humans, but that has no relation the point you were trying to address. Perhaps you need to reread my post, hmm? I mentioned those other non-human races that are not treated like animals to point out the central shortcoming of your argument that dragons are not humans, and should be treated like animals. It looks like that went over your head, and you took it as an actual question as to how we treat intelligent, non-human races. If so, your response does sort of address that, in a disjointed way, and even then you focus on how creative makes them seem alien to us rather than how we as readers should view them.
You did finally make a point in this post that dragons display a violent, extreme morality, which sets them apart from other non-human races as a threat. That isn't a very good point though, as other non-human races have also displayed similar extremes, such as Lorwyn's elves just straight up murdering anything they think is ugly (or even just Llanowar elves dictating "one bone broken for every twig snapped underfoot" as a penalty for trespassing), goblins just in general, Shadowmoore's Flamekin being omnicidal, Shadowmoore's Kithkin's extreme xenophobia, etc. Having an alien morality, even one that can come off as extreme, tyrannical, or even evil to a human, doesn't make an intelligent race mere animals. On the contrary, that they have a morality undermines that argument. I mean, besides the fact that they are animals in the same sense that humans are animals, but I somehow doubt that was the point you were trying to make.
Perhaps your initial post was trying to point out that dragons have a way of thinking that is alien to us, so we should stop arguing from a position of human morality when discussing them? If so, you probably should have said that, or clarified it at some point. Reading your posts will only get me so far if they are poorly written
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's been said before in this thread, but I'd like to say that I agree. FRF Tarkir had dragons attacking humans almost constantly. Each clan had their own way of protecting themselves and taking down dragons. Yasova pointed out that she is tired of watching her people get killed off by dragons. I can only imagine that fatigue also existed among the other clans. In my mind, humans aren't killing dragons for sport or for food, but to just survive. Dragons, in my mind, weren't killing humans to preserve their own existence, but killing humans for sport/food. So when the dragon tempests stopped, humans saw an opportunity to finally be able to sleep soundly at night without fear of a dragon dropping from the sky on them. I don't blame them. That kind of life seems pretty terrifying. Dragons eventually became extinct, but you're telling me that dragons couldn't have hidden from humans somewhere, in unreachable mountains, or hidden swamps, or whatever matches up to their color focus? I mean, how does NO dragon survive? Were the humans just roving hunting squads for hundreds of years, pulling up grass and rocks and knocking on caves to find the last dragon? And then how would they even know if they got the last dragon? My gut tells me that to the last dragon, the dragons had to seek conflict with humans to the very end, for dragons to have all been eliminated. Imagine trying to find the last living sample of a species on the planet, without knowing if it's still out there, or if there are more than one. The only way you would know is by crossing paths with it. Dragons aren't stupid, and likely to be able to avoid humans if they didn't want conflict/death.
With that tangent done, I can understand the desire to be rid of dragons. As a bad example, say there's a disease killing off humans. Enough survive to keep the race going, but humans are dropping every day to it. You can create a vaccine. Wouldn't you want to completely eliminate that disease so that no one would ever have to die from that disease again? With that in mind, the dragons wouldn't feel the same way towards humans because, with increased numbers from roiling dragon tempests, they have a distinct advantage. So why kill those who can become your slaves/servants/sycophants/worshipers/etc.? Why not live the good life?
And in regard to why Ugin would engineer (if he did) a constant stalemate between dragons and humans...I had a probably wrong idea. Ugin was still an oldwalker back then. Oldwalkers could transport individuals with them through the Blind Eternities, and Ugin was a powerful one. What if Ugin knew that the constant fighting would strengthen both sides to a sharp edge, just in case he needed his own private army for some reason? Probably wrong, but it is appealing to me.
This is probably the best post in favor of wiping out the dragons. I would just add that even if some broods (Dromoka and Ojutai) did not randomly eat humans or even attack them at first, the humans probably wouldn't differentiate between the dragon broods at first. Abzan and Jeskai would be getting eaten by Kolaghan and Atarka and immediately become wary of all dragons. Its also probable that the dragons wouldn't differentiate between the clans right away. If Dromoka and Ojutai were getting attacked by Mardu, they may then begin to attack all humans in retaliation. We don't know enough about early clan/brood conflict to say what happened, but this would give a reason for the broods that don't hunt humans to come into conflict with their respective clans (in addition to Dromoka hating necromancy of course).
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So how should we treat elves, merfolk, goblins, vedalken, and the numerous other fantasy races that aren't human?
Oh, and Tarkir is better off. Its worse short term for most humanoids and at least most of the clans, but a LOT better for the dragons, who should be accounted for. But even more than that, in the new timeline, while things generally suck, they are capable of being fixed, whereas in the Khans timeline, the situation was doomed. The Clans were set to destroy each other in war, life on the plane was dying, and the land was dying, and there was no way to change it without changing the past. Under the dragons, most of the problems remain, but the land is no longer dying, and the solution to the problems actually exists because Ugin is alive. Things can improve in this timeline, whereas before everything was doomed to suck forever as the plane circled the drain.
First point: Fully embracing their core colors. Humans tend to exhibit a bit of everything. Make your iconic race examples hardline adherents to the facets of their core color. It allows them to come across as strange to us humans while being well-rounded. Seeing as humans are some of the most resourceful animals in terms of manipulating our environment, I see where you can justify spreading humans across all five colors. It represents that resourcefulness.
I never saw any cards or Uncharted Realms articles depicting that the land was worse off in KTK timeline.
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
No, I talked about how it makes them alien to humans. They haven't exhibited the sort of violent, extreme morality of the dragons. The first point addresses your question about the other iconic creatures and how they are treated. Please read the posts that you will be quoting. Our discussion will flow more smoothly if you'd take the time.
Sorry, but you're first point really did not address what I said at all. Yeah, you made a point about how their adherence to their colors makes them seem alien to humans, but that has no relation the point you were trying to address. Perhaps you need to reread my post, hmm? I mentioned those other non-human races that are not treated like animals to point out the central shortcoming of your argument that dragons are not humans, and should be treated like animals. It looks like that went over your head, and you took it as an actual question as to how we treat intelligent, non-human races. If so, your response does sort of address that, in a disjointed way, and even then you focus on how creative makes them seem alien to us rather than how we as readers should view them.
You did finally make a point in this post that dragons display a violent, extreme morality, which sets them apart from other non-human races as a threat. That isn't a very good point though, as other non-human races have also displayed similar extremes, such as Lorwyn's elves just straight up murdering anything they think is ugly (or even just Llanowar elves dictating "one bone broken for every twig snapped underfoot" as a penalty for trespassing), goblins just in general, Shadowmoore's Flamekin being omnicidal, Shadowmoore's Kithkin's extreme xenophobia, etc. Having an alien morality, even one that can come off as extreme, tyrannical, or even evil to a human, doesn't make an intelligent race mere animals. On the contrary, that they have a morality undermines that argument. I mean, besides the fact that they are animals in the same sense that humans are animals, but I somehow doubt that was the point you were trying to make.
Perhaps your initial post was trying to point out that dragons have a way of thinking that is alien to us, so we should stop arguing from a position of human morality when discussing them? If so, you probably should have said that, or clarified it at some point. Reading your posts will only get me so far if they are poorly written
Aaayyyy lmao lot of words for fanfic nom sayin?
First bold bit: But this is bang-on. I wish this came across in the Lorwyn books. Instead it felt like a bunch of vanilla humans with quirks rather than inhuman beasts with utterly alien mindsets.
First point: Fully embracing their core colors. Humans tend to exhibit a bit of everything. Make your iconic race examples hardline adherents to the facets of their core color. It allows them to come across as strange to us humans while being well-rounded. Seeing as humans are some of the most resourceful animals in terms of manipulating our environment, I see where you can justify spreading humans across all five colors. It represents that resourcefulness.
I never saw any cards or Uncharted Realms articles depicting that the land was worse off in KTK timeline.
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
No, I talked about how it makes them alien to humans. They haven't exhibited the sort of violent, extreme morality of the dragons. The first point addresses your question about the other iconic creatures and how they are treated. Please read the posts that you will be quoting. Our discussion will flow more smoothly if you'd take the time.
Sorry, but you're first point really did not address what I said at all. Yeah, you made a point about how their adherence to their colors makes them seem alien to humans, but that has no relation the point you were trying to address. Perhaps you need to reread my post, hmm? I mentioned those other non-human races that are not treated like animals to point out the central shortcoming of your argument that dragons are not humans, and should be treated like animals. It looks like that went over your head, and you took it as an actual question as to how we treat intelligent, non-human races. If so, your response does sort of address that, in a disjointed way, and even then you focus on how creative makes them seem alien to us rather than how we as readers should view them.
You did finally make a point in this post that dragons display a violent, extreme morality, which sets them apart from other non-human races as a threat. That isn't a very good point though, as other non-human races have also displayed similar extremes, such as Lorwyn's elves just straight up murdering anything they think is ugly (or even just Llanowar elves dictating "one bone broken for every twig snapped underfoot" as a penalty for trespassing), goblins just in general, Shadowmoore's Flamekin being omnicidal, Shadowmoore's Kithkin's extreme xenophobia, etc. Having an alien morality, even one that can come off as extreme, tyrannical, or even evil to a human, doesn't make an intelligent race mere animals. On the contrary, that they have a morality undermines that argument. I mean, besides the fact that they are animals in the same sense that humans are animals, but I somehow doubt that was the point you were trying to make.
Perhaps your initial post was trying to point out that dragons have a way of thinking that is alien to us, so we should stop arguing from a position of human morality when discussing them? If so, you probably should have said that, or clarified it at some point. Reading your posts will only get me so far if they are poorly written
Aaayyyy lmao lot of words for fanfic nom sayin?
First bold bit: But this is bang-on. I wish this came across in the Lorwyn books. Instead it felt like a bunch of vanilla humans with quirks rather than inhuman beasts with utterly alien mindsets.
Second bold bit: This is it.
Oh, no doubt the Lorwyn books sucked. You actually got a much better feel for each race from their cards than from the books. I can see why they wouldn't go full bore into making the characters seem alien, as there were no humans on the plane. Writing like that for about 900 pages (3 books) is pretty hard on a short schedule, and reading that many pages without running into a character that thinks like a human would be rough for most people. Its something that works better in short story form.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I really don't know how to address your first point because it has nothing to do with what I said at all. You said that that the intelligent dragons are animals and should be treated as such, and your justification was that they are not human. I pointed out several intelligent non-human races that are not treated like animals. Your response talked about how they fit their colors. I guess I'll give you another chance to post something that resembles a point.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And it was implied that if Ajani didn't interfere, he would have continued to feed on the maelstrom until the plane was dead.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Could be, but then the Weatherlight crew had the same option and only the final part of that story was a 'plane in peril'. They can always provide anchors to prevent the heroes leaving; an obligation, a character in need of rescue. Mercadian Masques, for all that it was a terrible set, had a pretty good storyline in that regard.
No, I talked about how it makes them alien to humans. They haven't exhibited the sort of violent, extreme morality of the dragons. The first point addresses your question about the other iconic creatures and how they are treated. Please read the posts that you will be quoting. Our discussion will flow more smoothly if you'd take the time.
This, right here. The dragons are evil and they need to be stopped.
....
In all seriousness, this is certainly a better Tarkir for its tyrannical overlords. As for humans, their general livelihood is a bit worse, but not by so much. It was always tough to be a Temur, and life as a Mardu tended to be nasty, brutish, and short anyway. In Tarkir 1.0, it sucked to be a human Sultai (unless you were Tiagam), but in Tarkir 2.0, humans have a better lot under Silumgar than they ever did under the Naga. The Ojutai and the Dromoka clans seem healthy and happy enough--the gross injustices they once suffered bear little impact on their present-day comfort/prosperity.
All that said, Tarkir 1.0 was better overall. Better for humans to be locked in eternal war than bent in perpetual subjugation.
With that tangent done, I can understand the desire to be rid of dragons. As a bad example, say there's a disease killing off humans. Enough survive to keep the race going, but humans are dropping every day to it. You can create a vaccine. Wouldn't you want to completely eliminate that disease so that no one would ever have to die from that disease again? With that in mind, the dragons wouldn't feel the same way towards humans because, with increased numbers from roiling dragon tempests, they have a distinct advantage. So why kill those who can become your slaves/servants/sycophants/worshipers/etc.? Why not live the good life?
And in regard to why Ugin would engineer (if he did) a constant stalemate between dragons and humans...I had a probably wrong idea. Ugin was still an oldwalker back then. Oldwalkers could transport individuals with them through the Blind Eternities, and Ugin was a powerful one. What if Ugin knew that the constant fighting would strengthen both sides to a sharp edge, just in case he needed his own private army for some reason? Probably wrong, but it is appealing to me.
I imagine this changes from brood to brood, but Dromoka is pretty clear on the reasons she has for attacking the Abzan:
Once they stop these two things, she is ok with humans. In fact, ww know her brood raised humans as servants even before the Abzan surrendered.
Atarka does sound like the type to attack humans for food/sport. But she was probably afraid of shamans and their elementals as well.
Kolaghan probably attacked the Mardu because she pleased. And probably because they were too orderly.
Ojutai seemingly was angry about the humans killing dragons as well.
Silumgar probably attacked Sultai because he wanted their treasures.
I have discussed this before, in another thread several years ago, but judging from their size, and assuming they have a "bird of prey"-like metabolism, Dragons would have to ingest several tons of meat every day. That wouldn't allow them to remain hidden in a specific location, as they would run out of prey very quickly. A dragon who is not powered by magic, would demand hunting grounds larger than a whole mountain.
I am frankly of the opinion that humans would hunt dragons to extinction in any kind of setting where both coexist in the same environment. It would be basically the first thing you have to do before you can consider urbanizing an area.
But in the long run, the multiverse has Ugin again to keep it orderly. Or at least from being destroyed by Bolas, the Eldrazi and the Phyrexians.
WBTokensWB
Sarkhan, for all his bravado, actually WANTS to be a dragon's ***** and doesn't mind making an entire plane of humans the same way, whether they like it or not.
Pathetic.
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Dragons aren't like mice or something. They're the size of buildings. Look at Destructor Dragon, its head alone is the size of a mammoth. If they are like the "average" reptile on earth ((unlikely for such active predators but they're magical) they need about 5.6 Cal per kg (that's in dietary calories). A dragon of that size, say 35 meters long, would weight on the order of 500000 kg. Its dietary needs would be the same as hundreds of humans.
Even if it could physically hide (which is unlikely) it wouldn't be able to stay in one place for long.
Well, he did just have his epiphany (from his perspective, mere hours ago) that he'd always fail so long as he sought guidance, rather than truth. He's really nowhere near an Ubermensch, since such a one determines right and wrong all by themselves, although I wouldn't classify him as a Lentzenmensch, either. The problem in his case is that he's come to the conclusion that there's a Correct Answer somewhere in the multiverse, and dragons, being the ultimate creatures, must have it; else they wouldn't be ultimate.
In a sense, I think he's so determined to be strong and powerful, that he's forgotten to ask what the purpose of strength and power is. Maybe his subconscious goals are a negative image of that--his real goal is to remove himself from weakness as much as he can.
Sorry, but you're first point really did not address what I said at all. Yeah, you made a point about how their adherence to their colors makes them seem alien to humans, but that has no relation the point you were trying to address. Perhaps you need to reread my post, hmm? I mentioned those other non-human races that are not treated like animals to point out the central shortcoming of your argument that dragons are not humans, and should be treated like animals. It looks like that went over your head, and you took it as an actual question as to how we treat intelligent, non-human races. If so, your response does sort of address that, in a disjointed way, and even then you focus on how creative makes them seem alien to us rather than how we as readers should view them.
You did finally make a point in this post that dragons display a violent, extreme morality, which sets them apart from other non-human races as a threat. That isn't a very good point though, as other non-human races have also displayed similar extremes, such as Lorwyn's elves just straight up murdering anything they think is ugly (or even just Llanowar elves dictating "one bone broken for every twig snapped underfoot" as a penalty for trespassing), goblins just in general, Shadowmoore's Flamekin being omnicidal, Shadowmoore's Kithkin's extreme xenophobia, etc. Having an alien morality, even one that can come off as extreme, tyrannical, or even evil to a human, doesn't make an intelligent race mere animals. On the contrary, that they have a morality undermines that argument. I mean, besides the fact that they are animals in the same sense that humans are animals, but I somehow doubt that was the point you were trying to make.
Perhaps your initial post was trying to point out that dragons have a way of thinking that is alien to us, so we should stop arguing from a position of human morality when discussing them? If so, you probably should have said that, or clarified it at some point. Reading your posts will only get me so far if they are poorly written
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This is probably the best post in favor of wiping out the dragons. I would just add that even if some broods (Dromoka and Ojutai) did not randomly eat humans or even attack them at first, the humans probably wouldn't differentiate between the dragon broods at first. Abzan and Jeskai would be getting eaten by Kolaghan and Atarka and immediately become wary of all dragons. Its also probable that the dragons wouldn't differentiate between the clans right away. If Dromoka and Ojutai were getting attacked by Mardu, they may then begin to attack all humans in retaliation. We don't know enough about early clan/brood conflict to say what happened, but this would give a reason for the broods that don't hunt humans to come into conflict with their respective clans (in addition to Dromoka hating necromancy of course).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Aaayyyy lmao lot of words for fanfic nom sayin?
First bold bit: But this is bang-on. I wish this came across in the Lorwyn books. Instead it felt like a bunch of vanilla humans with quirks rather than inhuman beasts with utterly alien mindsets.
Second bold bit: This is it.
Oh, no doubt the Lorwyn books sucked. You actually got a much better feel for each race from their cards than from the books. I can see why they wouldn't go full bore into making the characters seem alien, as there were no humans on the plane. Writing like that for about 900 pages (3 books) is pretty hard on a short schedule, and reading that many pages without running into a character that thinks like a human would be rough for most people. Its something that works better in short story form.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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