What are you meaning about this? Seems pretty clear that Karn made Mirrodin in already existing space,as oppose to creating a space within the blind eternities, which helped keep it stable.
I went to the comment they are sourcing it and the source implies he isn't 100% sure, see the other quote in my last post. Karn using a pre-formed plane is a guess he(the writer of the mirrodin block) is making in response to someone asking about Blinkmoths, he may not have the full authority to say exactly how Karn crafted Argentum(Mirrodin) though.
Aside from a few hiccups, some being bigger than others, I'm personally enjoying the story articles and cannot wait till the next one is brought fourth. Seeing as how it is the last article as well, that means lots of character development pieces which makes me a happy camper.
Quoting from the fat pack booklet:
"Based on what Liliana had learned from Tezzeret, the Gatewatch determine that he is working for the evil dragon Planeswalker Nicol Bolas. Ajani believes Nicol Bolas is hiding something on the plane of Amonkhet, but he warns the Gatewatch that Bolas is extremely dangerous and recommends that they regroup on Dominaria and secure additional aid before facing him. After Ajani leaves, however, the Gatewatch decide that they cannot wait any longer to free a world from the clutches of Bolas. They set their sights on Amonkhet and brace themselves for battle with the dragon."
Some bad assumptions made by Gatewatch here. One, they need no backup to take him on. Two, that Amonkhet is a world that needs saving from his clutches.
If hour of devastation isn't a member dying and the Gatewatch losing.......Just wow
I really doubt anyone is dying. Just doesn't make sense with how they've done things so far. In general I think the core five Gatewatch are about as immune from death as possible.
And that's exactly the point and problem people have with the Gatewatch.
They go charging off to fight something way more powerful than them with no backup and under false or unsubstantiated premises and the plot armor protects them again? Ridiculous.
I would argue that trying to kill any of the members off is ridiculous and amounts to shoddy writing if its purely done to "up the ante". If it is solely done to create drama and tension, then it is amateurish trite passing as writing. Badly wounded, splitting up or an unwinnable fight is fine. If Gideon's story is resolved and he dies in a heroic manner that is respectful to his character, that is good storytelling.
Killing off one of the gatewatch at random does not add to a story and only ends a character's story arc and also with it any meaningful stories that could be told beyond that. As death shouldn't be used as a revolving door system in order to introduce new members to the gatewatch like Koth or Elspeth. Its even horrible storytelling when you consider that if you get too trigger happy with offing characters that its hard to feel invested in the Gatewatch if none of the founding members are around at all and the members of the Gatewatch in that current state are completely different
Also a bit early to wish death, don't you think? The Gatewatch is in its infancy. The set Oath of the Gatewatch, which is the foundation for it, was released in January 22, 2016. Meaning we have only had them around for 1 Year and 9 Days or just 374 days as of writing this post. The spoiler season for Oath of the Gatewatch didn't even start till December 28, meaning an extra 26 days at most is added to how long we have had them and totaling to 1 Year and 33 Days which is 400 Days at most. To put that into actual perspective, from the moment Urza was a boy to Yawgmoth's death span over time from 1998 of May to 2001 of June which is 4 Years and 1 Month. What you are asking for is basically 1/4th that time for our heroes to start dying and falling apart. THAT would be some seriously weak buildup time for a character of the gatewatch dying within that short amount of time.
I don't even think in their book time that they have been together for even Three Months. At most I would say they been together for about: Two-to-three weeks and a single month. Which is only about 45-to-52* days. Now lets stack that up against the actual timeline in the Urza storyline shall we? That story takes place over 4205+ years. 45-52 DaysVs4205 Years. To me the Yawgmoth/Urza storyline seems more reasonable as it did its job in worldbuilding for almost ten thousand years of time. How absolutely anticlimactic would it be if Urza, after having become a planeswalker, died after 52 days time? Even if we throw Liliana's Age as a comparable measuring stick, that is only 229** Years versus the 4205 that he lived for.
I am willing to buy that Hour of Devastation (July 14th, 2017) is the "villain's win" set as Nicol Bolas is even getting Archenemy cards around that time. As the last one we had a set like that was with New Phyrexia (May 13th, 2011). Which is a time gap of 6 Years, 2 Months and 1 Day.
How did the Gatewatch do their tasks? Its not plot armor. They actually earned their victories. If it weren't ultimately for Nissa & Chandra, Zendikar was doomed. If it weren't for Liliana, Jace, Tamiyo and Emrakul*** then Innistrad was doomed. If it weren't for Liliana, Chandra and Gideon then Kaladesh would be invaded by Nicol Bolas's forces from Amonkhet. Calling what they did and how they got to that point as Plot Armor, is just unacceptable and shrinks their accomplishments.
Recent examples of a brush with death is with just Chandra, quite a few times. She, Nissa and Oviya was dying of poisoning in Baral's deadlock trap and the person who came to their rescue was Ajani Goldmane. She nearly committed suicide and was only stopped by Nissa who helped calm her down. If Gideon's protective magics failed or he didn't join her, Chandra would have died. Is that too "plot armory" for you? That she didn't actually die or someone close to her like Oviya Pashiri or Nissa Revane didn't? Why does death have to be the only way to show weight? I was more moved when Oviya protected Chandra from Baral. I was invested in wondering if Oviya would be alright after being critically injured by Baral. I was happy that Ajani saved Oviya's life with his healing magic. Oviya dying would have left me feeling empty on the matter and I wouldn't have been as invested in the story. As you know what? I barely know Oviya Pashiri and her dying wouldn't have nearly have as much weight to the story. Which you know what is interesting to me about Baral? He actually posed a threat and he wasn't some elder god. He didn't have plot armor either, he was just a blue wizard that focused on counterspells and he also wasn't a planeswalker either.
* The amount of time passed is given multiples time in the Kaladesh article "Homesick".
** 229 is Liliana's age. Citation is from Kaladesh article "Homesick".
*** Emrakul rewrote Tamiyo's scroll and changed it from planar destruction to abundant mana. She literally sealed herself in the moon. Which wasn't possible at all for the Gatewatch to do without Emrakul's help.
Nicol Bolas has his signature touch and that could put one of the Gatewatch out of commission.
Guys, Guys Guys....
Nicol doesn't have to kill any of the Gatewatch for them to lose, or put any particular out of commission.
My suspicion:
Nicol Bolas wrecks them during HoD but they barely manage to escape
OR
During the conflict one of the Gatewatch becomes captured/left behind, sealed, or made comatose, with the rest barely escaping.
THAT would satisfy my desire for the heroes to lose for once, but with none of the characters dying (yet) whilst creating a new subplot and tension for the team.
How are they gonna rescue/cure/unseal their lost ally?
How are they going to trust one another after most of them turned tail, even IF it were the most prudent thing to do?
You don't have to kill your protagonists to heighten the stakes, at least, not this early in the Gatewatch's existence. All you need is a defeat and a major setback, like the capture/decommissioning of an ally.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Guys, Guys Guys....
Nicol doesn't have to kill any of the Gatewatch for them to lose, or put any particular out of commission.
My suspicion:
Nicol Bolas wrecks them during HoD but they barely manage to escape
OR
During the conflict one of the Gatewatch becomes captured/left behind, sealed, or made comatose, with the rest barely escaping.
THAT would satisfy my desire for the heroes to lose for once, but with none of the characters dying (yet) whilst creating a new subplot and tension for the team.
How are they gonna rescue/cure/unseal their lost ally?
How are they going to trust one another after most of them turned tail, even IF it were the most prudent thing to do?
You don't have to kill your protagonists to heighten the stakes, at least, not this early in the Gatewatch's existence. All you need is a defeat and a major setback, like the capture/decommissioning of an ally.
I'm aware. I suggested in the other thread, a few posts, that details how Gideon or Chandra could be turned against the Gatewatch (captured/mind controlled/etc). Chandra I would argue being taken from the team is more impactful to them. The second would be Gideon but for entirely different reasons. Third is tied with Jace and Nissa. Finally Liliana would affect the group the least if she left/were-taken. Ajani is not accounted for.
Guys, Guys Guys....
Nicol doesn't have to kill any of the Gatewatch for them to lose, or put any particular out of commission.
My suspicion:
Nicol Bolas wrecks them during HoD but they barely manage to escape
OR
During the conflict one of the Gatewatch becomes captured/left behind, sealed, or made comatose, with the rest barely escaping.
THAT would satisfy my desire for the heroes to lose for once, but with none of the characters dying (yet) whilst creating a new subplot and tension for the team.
How are they gonna rescue/cure/unseal their lost ally?
How are they going to trust one another after most of them turned tail, even IF it were the most prudent thing to do?
You don't have to kill your protagonists to heighten the stakes, at least, not this early in the Gatewatch's existence. All you need is a defeat and a major setback, like the capture/decommissioning of an ally.
I'm aware. I suggested in the other thread, a few posts, that details how Gideon or Chandra could be turned against the Gatewatch (captured/mind controlled/etc). Chandra I would argue being taken from the team is more impactful to them. The second would be Gideon but for entirely different reasons. Third is tied with Jace and Nissa. Finally Liliana would affect the group the least if she left/were-taken. Ajani is not accounted for.
I'm going to put it on Gideon. He would be the one that would try to rely on his indestructible magic close combat style but that wouldn't protect him from Bolas touch.
I'm aware. I suggested in the other thread, a few posts, that details how Gideon or Chandra could be turned against the Gatewatch (captured/mind controlled/etc). Chandra I would argue being taken from the team is more impactful to them. The second would be Gideon but for entirely different reasons. Third is tied with Jace and Nissa. Finally Liliana would affect the group the least if she left/were-taken. Ajani is not accounted for.
I'm going to put it on Gideon. He would be the one that would try to rely on his indestructible magic close combat style but that wouldn't protect him from Bolas touch.
Very possible and a very obvious choice. As its his mentality and harsh experiences that makes himself go out of his way to protect others even if it wouldn't be beneficial to himself. He is very much Mr Indestructible and would obviously be a thorn in Nicol Bolas side if he doesn't use mind control or the touch on Gideon. Losing him means that they have to be much more cautious with their battle plans as they can't rely on him anymore to make rash decisions unless they wanted to lose members. I personally want Elspeth to meet Gideon as he would be like a ray of sunshine after the horrible stuff with Heliod or the Phyrexians.
I also threw in Chandra as she is very valuable in the team. The major factor is that because of her impulsive actions the Gatewatch has saved planes. 2/3rds of the Gatewatch's major victories can be attributed to her erratic nature (Zendikar and Kaladesh). I like to think of her as their ace-in-the-hole that they can pull out and get a good victory out of. Losing her means their chances for victory take a sharp curve downward. Such as Zendikar. As if she didn't leave the monastery to return to Zendikar, she wouldn't be able to save Gideon, Jace and Nissa who were trapped and tortured by Ob Nixilis. Because they were compromised, the Eldrazi would have succeeded in destroying Zendikar.
I have a question, I couldn't find it if it was stated and was wondering. Where the heck was the Planar Bridge supposed to connect to? Did they state where? Cause if Argentum then I understand why they'd want it gone but if it was Ulgrotha then I think it would be more of an improvement on that plane.
It wasn't. There was a scene where Rashmi got a glimpse of several planes. But we don't know where Tezz would have gone had Lili not stopped him.
Nicol Bolas has his signature touch and that could put one of the Gatewatch out of commission.
Yeah. Everyone is kind of expecting him to boop one of the Gatewatch members.
What if..Nicol Boops Jace.
The gatewatch would have to return to Ravnica with a seriously damaged Jace..and explain to The Guilds that their Guildpact, the thing that is holding their society together was sneaking out to do dangerous things that could very easily have gotten himself killed. Including going to a plane that he had never been to alone to seek out a Vampire Lord that technically makes
Szadek look like a kitten.
No one is dying. No one is getting their brain melted. Get over it. The Gatewatch isn't going to die. They may lose but they none of them are going to die.
No one is dying. No one is getting their brain melted. Get over it. The Gatewatch isn't going to die. They may lose but they none of them are going to die.
Nicol Bolas' touch isn't "brain melting instant death." It is more akin to waking up after drinking far far too much. It is the exact sort of thing that WOTC could do to have the gatewatch "lose" and not kill one off.
Nicol Bolas' touch isn't "brain melting instant death." It is more akin to waking up after drinking far far too much. It is the exact sort of thing that WOTC could do to have the gatewatch "lose" and not kill one off.
Yeah I don't think so. The Salvation Wiki says it "shattered minds" a bad hangover is not mind shattering. Bolas' touch makes coherent thought impossible. Its not literal death but it may as well be.
Nicol Bolas' touch isn't "brain melting instant death." It is more akin to waking up after drinking far far too much. It is the exact sort of thing that WOTC could do to have the gatewatch "lose" and not kill one off.
Yeah I don't think so. The Salvation Wiki says it "shattered minds" a bad hangover is not mind shattering. Bolas' touch makes coherent thought impossible. Its not literal death but it may as well be.
Yeah, the Wiki is a bit exaggerated there, the time it happened to Ramzes Overdark in the Legends 2 books it was not mind shattering and was healed of it (by Bolas) rather quickly. Remember the touch of doom is a reference to the discard effect of his original card. The touch sends you for a loop* but is not something that you can't recover from..if you can manage to fend off the giant angry god dragon.
Hence why I think if someone gets the touch it will be Jace, because putting him temporarily out has real story line consequences.
*Interestingly enough, Nicol's touch was probably an insta-kill on Old Planeswalkers since they were entirely made of thought.
I went to the comment they are sourcing it and the source implies he isn't 100% sure, see the other quote in my last post. Karn using a pre-formed plane is a guess he(the writer of the mirrodin block) is making in response to someone asking about Blinkmoths, he may not have the full authority to say exactly how Karn crafted Argentum(Mirrodin) though.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
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Atraxa hates fun
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Nicol Bolas has his signature touch and that could put one of the Gatewatch out of commission.
Nicol doesn't have to kill any of the Gatewatch for them to lose, or put any particular out of commission.
My suspicion:
Nicol Bolas wrecks them during HoD but they barely manage to escape
OR
During the conflict one of the Gatewatch becomes captured/left behind, sealed, or made comatose, with the rest barely escaping.
THAT would satisfy my desire for the heroes to lose for once, but with none of the characters dying (yet) whilst creating a new subplot and tension for the team.
How are they gonna rescue/cure/unseal their lost ally?
How are they going to trust one another after most of them turned tail, even IF it were the most prudent thing to do?
You don't have to kill your protagonists to heighten the stakes, at least, not this early in the Gatewatch's existence. All you need is a defeat and a major setback, like the capture/decommissioning of an ally.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I'm aware. I suggested in the other thread, a few posts, that details how Gideon or Chandra could be turned against the Gatewatch (captured/mind controlled/etc). Chandra I would argue being taken from the team is more impactful to them. The second would be Gideon but for entirely different reasons. Third is tied with Jace and Nissa. Finally Liliana would affect the group the least if she left/were-taken. Ajani is not accounted for.
I'm going to put it on Gideon. He would be the one that would try to rely on his indestructible magic close combat style but that wouldn't protect him from Bolas touch.
Very possible and a very obvious choice. As its his mentality and harsh experiences that makes himself go out of his way to protect others even if it wouldn't be beneficial to himself. He is very much Mr Indestructible and would obviously be a thorn in Nicol Bolas side if he doesn't use mind control or the touch on Gideon. Losing him means that they have to be much more cautious with their battle plans as they can't rely on him anymore to make rash decisions unless they wanted to lose members. I personally want Elspeth to meet Gideon as he would be like a ray of sunshine after the horrible stuff with Heliod or the Phyrexians.
I also threw in Chandra as she is very valuable in the team. The major factor is that because of her impulsive actions the Gatewatch has saved planes. 2/3rds of the Gatewatch's major victories can be attributed to her erratic nature (Zendikar and Kaladesh). I like to think of her as their ace-in-the-hole that they can pull out and get a good victory out of. Losing her means their chances for victory take a sharp curve downward. Such as Zendikar. As if she didn't leave the monastery to return to Zendikar, she wouldn't be able to save Gideon, Jace and Nissa who were trapped and tortured by Ob Nixilis. Because they were compromised, the Eldrazi would have succeeded in destroying Zendikar.
It wasn't. There was a scene where Rashmi got a glimpse of several planes. But we don't know where Tezz would have gone had Lili not stopped him.
What if..Nicol Boops Jace.
The gatewatch would have to return to Ravnica with a seriously damaged Jace..and explain to The Guilds that their Guildpact, the thing that is holding their society together was sneaking out to do dangerous things that could very easily have gotten himself killed. Including going to a plane that he had never been to alone to seek out a Vampire Lord that technically makes
Szadek look like a kitten.
I am SURE that will go over well with the Guilds.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
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Nicol Bolas' touch isn't "brain melting instant death." It is more akin to waking up after drinking far far too much. It is the exact sort of thing that WOTC could do to have the gatewatch "lose" and not kill one off.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Yeah I don't think so. The Salvation Wiki says it "shattered minds" a bad hangover is not mind shattering. Bolas' touch makes coherent thought impossible. Its not literal death but it may as well be.
Yeah, the Wiki is a bit exaggerated there, the time it happened to Ramzes Overdark in the Legends 2 books it was not mind shattering and was healed of it (by Bolas) rather quickly. Remember the touch of doom is a reference to the discard effect of his original card. The touch sends you for a loop* but is not something that you can't recover from..if you can manage to fend off the giant angry god dragon.
Hence why I think if someone gets the touch it will be Jace, because putting him temporarily out has real story line consequences.
*Interestingly enough, Nicol's touch was probably an insta-kill on Old Planeswalkers since they were entirely made of thought.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
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Gonti, Lord of Luxury
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Atraxa hates fun
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Gideon joining Bolas! That would be the plot twist we need.
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