I mean no but they got to be vaguely humanoid since they are riding horses. Seems like if they weren't humans that be good enough to mention. I mean I guess they could be Elves lol.
Those are Nicol Bolas's very first words. And they're immensely significant; his very first sensations in life are the feelings of being trapped and powerless.
This was a very well-written piece. Easily the best writing we've had all year. It's suitably elegant and poetic, and the brutality is hard-hitting and primal. Dead dogs, the twins cut from their dead mother, stillborn dragons, smashed goblins, the graphic details of the hunt--this is very visceral stuff, and it really drives home the harshness of both worlds--the rugged frontier land and the primordial (Dominaria?) where civilization is just in its infancy.
I loved it. This author has real talent, and I can't wait to read more from her.
I mean no but they got to be vaguely humanoid since they are riding horses. Seems like if they weren't humans that be good enough to mention. I mean I guess they could be Elves lol.
The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.
Could it be possible that the fight between Darigaaz and Tarox Bladewing (stated by their bios) will be a consequence of the events of this story? I have a feeling that the primeval dragons could be the heirs to the first elder dragons
[quote from="The_FPS »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/794596-core-2019-general-discussion?comment=81"The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.[/quote]
To me the power released by the Elder Dragons during death is a reference to both Piru (whose power was stolen by Geyadrone Dihada after being killed by Dakkon) and Chromium Rhuell (was life force was used in the Summit of the Null Moon by Tevesh Szat, Farlayn and Leshrac to break the Shard and flee to Shandalar).
The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
The viashino, as far as we understand it, have some sort of draconic ancestry, so they wouldn't predate the elder dragons.
My feeling is that the bipedal humanoids were elves. But also remember humans exist within the next 7-8,000 years because the Numena had to overthrow the Primevals.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.
I think the Elder Dragons that didn't hatch might be the origin of The First Eruption creation myth on Shiv. I think it's Chromium that ducks his head into the crater their impact creates and the implication is the mountain has become a volcano.
Could it be possible that the fight between Darigaaz and Tarox Bladewing (stated by their bios) will be a consequence of the events of this story? I have a feeling that the primeval dragons could be the heirs to the first elder dragons.
The implication is that the Primevals are a later clutch of dragons spawned by the Ur-Dragon.
I'm not sure what the Darigaaz/Tarox fight you're referring to is. I don't see that implication in their bios. It might happen, because Tarox seeks supremacy and will eventually eat his siblings, but that version of Tarox hasn't happened yet (and may not come to pass).
I'm sort of fine with this story, except for the humans. Apparantly humans predate dragons, wich feels all sorts of wrong....
You are assuming the great beast that birthed the eggs isn't the Ur-Dragon, The Implication in the story is that the Ur-Dragon lives/lived in the blind eternities and planted eggs on planes, which explains why there are Dragons on every plane.
I've been positively glowing about this story all day long. After months of poor to mediocre fiction, this is beyond anything I ever knew I wanted. I haven't been this enthused about the MTG story in years. Things I loved:
- The Elder Dragon eggstones falling to earth like meteors.
- Nicol Bolas not being pure evil from the start. Seeing him show empathy and actually caring about someone else, even as we also glimpse the early seeds of his future savagery. It gives him much-needed layer and nuance.
-Bolas and Ugin starting out as the runts. Bolas experiencing smallness and powerlessness from the very start.
-Seeing the primordial, neolithic Dominaria (I assume it's Dominaria?) It feels like the Elders have fallen right into a Jean M. Auel setting; an ancient, pre-civilized world full of wonder and possibility, where all of history still lies ahead.
-The twin girls paralleling Ugin and Bolas.
-Actually getting our earliest bit of MTG lore. It feels primal and even somewhat sacred; a privileged glimpse of primordial birth and creation. It even seems scriptural at times.
-The beautiful, violent, evocative imagery.
Until today, I had absolutely no curiosity whatsoever about the history of the Elder Dragons and their war. This story did me a 180. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm breathless for more.
Could it be possible that the fight between Darigaaz and Tarox Bladewing (stated by their bios) will be a consequence of the events of this story? I have a feeling that the primeval dragons could be the heirs to the first elder dragons.
The implication is that the Primevals are a later clutch of dragons spawned by the Ur-Dragon.
I'm not sure what the Darigaaz/Tarox fight you're referring to is. I don't see that implication in their bios. It might happen, because Tarox seeks supremacy and will eventually eat his siblings, but that version of Tarox hasn't happened yet (and may not come to pass).
An apology, I did a big assumption that in the bio for Verix that his son is secretly seeking to take control of the dragons from the champion Darigaaz, and him seeking to undo the wrongs of the past as a leader, could be an issue that was started here. I just want in a return to Dominaria to witness the battle between these two dragons.
I've been positively glowing about this story all day long. After months of poor to mediocre fiction, this is beyond anything I ever knew I wanted. I haven't been this enthused about the MTG story in years. Things I loved:
- The Elder Dragon eggstones falling to earth like meteors.
- Nicol Bolas not being pure evil from the start. Seeing him show empathy and actually caring about someone else, even as we also glimpse the early seeds of his future savagery. It gives him much-needed layer and nuance.
-Bolas and Ugin starting out as the runts. Bolas experiencing smallness and powerlessness from the very start.
-Seeing the primordial, neolithic Dominaria (I assume it's Dominaria?) It feels like the Elders have fallen right into a Jean M. Auel setting; an ancient, pre-civilized world full of wonder and possibility, where all of history still lies ahead.
-The twin girls paralleling Ugin and Bolas.
-Actually getting our earliest bit of MTG lore. It feels primal and even somewhat sacred; a privileged glimpse of primordial birth and creation. It even seems scriptural at times.
-The beautiful, violent, evocative imagery.
Until today, I had absolutely no curiosity whatsoever about the history of the Elder Dragons and their war. This story did me a 180. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm breathless for more.
This is probably the most positive comment I've seen about this story. I'm also interested to see where they go with this backstory, and this does shed some light on why Bolas thinks and acts the way he does. He clearly had the capacity to care about his family, and we see a lot of the "red" side of him with his impatience, lust for revenge and recklessness. However, as the flashback progressed, we start to see the more calculating and introspective side of him. Instead of just being hellbent on revenge, he stops for a moment and considers that maybe that's just how things are and he just has to be as high in the food chain as possible. This is more like the Bolas we currently know.
As I've been chewing over this story, I surprisingly found myself not liking baby Ugin, and liking baby Bolas more. Bolas seems to show more of a kinship with the attacked dragon. He's ready to face death to save her. But Ugin keeps shutting him up and taking his time to free Bolas, and doesn't seem as interested. As the descriptions of the horrible wounds flew past my eyes, I felt like baby Bolas, and I was annoyed with baby Ugin.
Which leads me to think about Ugin generally, and some other things people brought up so far in this thread. My impression of Ugin is that his interests and goals take precedence over any others (duh, dragon!). Bolas is pinned and ready to die for his sister anyway. Ugin isn't. Sorin and Nahiri want to stop the Eldrazi forever; Ugin doesn't. Ugin has Azor seal his spark away for Ugin's plan. Ugin introduces dragonstorms on Tarkir, terrorizing non-dragons for who knows how long. Ugin just doesn't really care. Didn't he even set up Jace as a trap to get Bolas on Ixalan?
Which leads me to something someone asked about Yasova. Maybe Bolas went to her and told her the dragons hunting her people was a result of Ugin. Ugin was to blame for all that suffering. And so, she worked with Bolas to take down Ugin. And it worked: All the dragons were wiped out, until Sarkhan undid it. And now it's even worse for people on Tarkir, and Ugin is alive again! Not liking him even more now! And functionally, is Bolas' impact on Amonkhet worse than Ugin's impact on Tarkir? Something to think on.
And the dragonstorms on Tarkir are very similar to the description of the ur-dragon and the generation of the first elder dragons, as others have pointed out. Is Ugin trying to become a new ur-dragon of Dominia(not Dominaria)? Would his study of the Eldrazi have assisted in his goal of becoming godlike over all planes?
Speculation, but fun speculation. Bolas is a bad dude, but I don't see Ugin as a boy scout either. He'd be an interesting next 'big bad.'
Excited for next week!
I felt the same exact way. The cold disinterest of Ugin, the selfishness, and the cowardice. Bolas is a young nationalist, a loyalist, who turns darker because his first memory is of watching his sister die? I like it, nuance!
I don't get the "Ugin doesn't care" vibe at all. All of the points he brought up were valid. And he did care about his brother enough to help and stop him from putting himself in danger, several times.
Ugin doesn't want to kill the Eldrazi, because he fears they might serve a crucial role in the multiverse, a sentiment that we, living in the modern world with the various ecosystems we have messed up due to ignorance, should relate to the most.
He also didn't abandon Azor. Ugin was comatose. (Or even legit dead, in another timeline.) As for why Azor had to borrow his spark? I assume that A) Azor had a closer conenction to the immortal sun, being a hieromancer and all and B) Ugin would have to lure Bolas to Ixalan, which is probably easier if you can still follow Bolas.
I'm not saying Ugin is a nice character. He's an elder dragon and an oldwalker, I think being a bit of a dick comes with the package, but claiming that he doesn't care or is selfish is just... wow.
I mean no but they got to be vaguely humanoid since they are riding horses. Seems like if they weren't humans that be good enough to mention. I mean I guess they could be Elves lol.
The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.
Would be nice if this was the origen of the [lizard race wotc avoid] in Dominaria ( or whatever plane or place they where).
I feel like everyone is excessively disproving of Ugin's nature in this. He wasn't cold or apathetic, he was smart. Bolas even says that Ugin was right (similarly to how the human twins fight over the right move over the impulsive move). They could've, maybe would've, died if they had rushed out. He saved himself and Bolas, isn't that empathetic? And at minutes old, is there really a sense of family, anyways? Despite their youth, Ugin didn't help Bolas slowly, but carefully, and that is a distinct difference.
In fact, Nicol Bolas seems to care more that "weak" creatures have the nerve to attack a dragon. Does Bolas really care about his sister? Or rather the implication that he too could be attacked and killed by something he deems less-than? Ugin shows more intelligence, strength of character, and compassion in this story than Bolas.
Reference of Bolas caring about himself being attacked not his sister: '"We can avenge her. These puny creatures cannot be allowed to attack us."'
Reference of Ugin being right, and looking out for his twin: 'Annoyed because Ugin is right[...]'
The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
The viashino, as far as we understand it, have some sort of draconic ancestry, so they wouldn't predate the elder dragons.
My feeling is that the bipedal humanoids were elves. But also remember humans exist within the next 7-8,000 years because the Numena had to overthrow the Primevals.
.
I meant the hunters become viashino after consuming the elder dragon not that they already are any sort of lizardfolk. They could be elves or some other primal species but are changed/evolved after taking the power from the elder dragon they killed.
Even so, after thinking about it last night it is probably such a far-fetched idea it probably wouldn't have been written that way. I double there would be a need to explain viashino heritage right now when it seems the hunters only serve as a plot device to push Bolas to fear the power of groups. The story is setting up why Bolas is uneasy about having the Gatewatch around. This is more likely than Bolas learning the importance of working with a group. Bolas doesn't really plan or work with others the same way the hunters do.
"they've proven they can work together to accomplish a task that would be impossible for anyone alone....It is the hunters who are dangerous, with their weapons and the way they work together to achieve something they cannot do alone."
He leads and enslaves which is not what teamwork is. He also states multiple time how puny he sees the hunters and how offended he is they have killed a dragon. This is setting up his arroganceconfidence, which is a trait we know Bolas has.
[quote from="The_FPS »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/794596-core-2019-general-discussion?comment=81"The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.
To me the power released by the Elder Dragons during death is a reference to both Piru (whose power was stolen by Geyadrone Dihada after being killed by Dakkon) and Chromium Rhuell (was life force was used in the Summit of the Null Moon by Tevesh Szat, Farlayn and Leshrac to break the Shard and flee to Shandalar).[/quote]
I just think the power is what the type of thing that could change a species from whatever the hunters were to a half-dragon lizard people. Either way, it probably wasn't the author's intent since I can't see a reason why they would have asked her to include the origin of the viashino in her story. It just seems too obscure for a creature type that doesn't really get a lot of attention.
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
I've been positively glowing about this story all day long. After months of poor to mediocre fiction, this is beyond anything I ever knew I wanted. I haven't been this enthused about the MTG story in years. Things I loved:
- The Elder Dragon eggstones falling to earth like meteors.
- Nicol Bolas not being pure evil from the start. Seeing him show empathy and actually caring about someone else, even as we also glimpse the early seeds of his future savagery. It gives him much-needed layer and nuance.
-Bolas and Ugin starting out as the runts. Bolas experiencing smallness and powerlessness from the very start.
-Seeing the primordial, neolithic Dominaria (I assume it's Dominaria?) It feels like the Elders have fallen right into a Jean M. Auel setting; an ancient, pre-civilized world full of wonder and possibility, where all of history still lies ahead.
-The twin girls paralleling Ugin and Bolas.
-Actually getting our earliest bit of MTG lore. It feels primal and even somewhat sacred; a privileged glimpse of primordial birth and creation. It even seems scriptural at times.
-The beautiful, violent, evocative imagery.
Until today, I had absolutely no curiosity whatsoever about the history of the Elder Dragons and their war. This story did me a 180. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm breathless for more.
Came here to make an appreciative comment and saw that someone wrote exactly that what I wanted. Well said, sir
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I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
Considering Ugin wanted to keep them alive since he's concerned about their purpose in the ecosystem of the Multiverse, is that really a bad thing in the grand scheme of things?
I wonder how much better off the people on Amonkhet, Zendikar, Innistrad, Tarkir, Ixalan and Dominaria (among other planes influenced directly and indirectly by Bolas and Ugin) would have been if the hunters got to the twins.
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
Considering Ugin wanted to keep them alive since he's concerned about their purpose in the ecosystem of the Multiverse, is that really a bad thing in the grand scheme of things?
He still took them out of commission. And he might be right they could have a purpose that makes them vital to the multiverse. Granted I doubt they do purely because the Gatewatch doesn't suffer direct consequences for their screwups. Its Free Passes for all.
I don't get the "Ugin doesn't care" vibe at all. All of the points he brought up were valid. And he did care about his brother enough to help and stop him from putting himself in danger, several times.
Ugin doesn't want to kill the Eldrazi, because he fears they might serve a crucial role in the multiverse, a sentiment that we, living in the modern world with the various ecosystems we have messed up due to ignorance, should relate to the most.
He also didn't abandon Azor. Ugin was comatose. (Or even legit dead, in another timeline.) As for why Azor had to borrow his spark? I assume that A) Azor had a closer conenction to the immortal sun, being a hieromancer and all and B) Ugin would have to lure Bolas to Ixalan, which is probably easier if you can still follow Bolas.
I'm not saying Ugin is a nice character. He's an elder dragon and an oldwalker, I think being a bit of a dick comes with the package, but claiming that he doesn't care or is selfish is just... wow.
So this is largely going to be a subjective debate, since 'good' and 'bad' can be argued til the end of time. So instead of saying I'm right, you're wrong, let me explain my (subjective) view.
Baby Ugin and Bolas are different from their ancient versions we know today. You can see the seeds that will grow into the elder dragons, but still they're different. So I re-read the trapped Bolas part again. Bolas does want to save his sibling who is being slaughtered. He's all action. Ugin thinks more about the situation. One person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling exclusively because he's worried about his twin brother. Another person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling primarily because the struggle would draw attention not just to Bolas, but to Ugin as well, thereby risking Ugin's life. It's wide open for debate as to whether that moment was selfless or selfish.
Though Ugin is much more sanguine about the death of their sibling than Bolas is. Ugin is more 'oh well,' while Bolas is 'burn the motha down.' One response is objectively more rational than the other, but rational people can have rational points that are still selfish in nature. This too is wide open for debate.
As for the Eldrazi, Azor, the dragonstorms on Tarkir, most of what we know about Ugin's motives comes from Ugin.
Ugin says he wanted to study the Eldrazi. But he sacrificed an entire plane of living things to trap them there and cajoled an ally into keeping eternal watch over them. It created havoc on the plane and, as we are now aware, their escape from their prison led to the destruction of most of Zendikar. And if his primary purpose was to study them, why wasn't he there almost all the time with Nahiri? Why was she sleeping in stone, alone, for what seems to be most of the time? Did he have a plan for what to do after he was done studying them? (That we don't know) And if he so strongly believed the Eldrazi serve a purpose, why imprison them for thousands of years (or however long, I forget the specifics)? Wouldn't that ruin their purpose just as much as killing them?
Using a plane like this for your own 'study' seems more selfish than not. He didn't have to live with the repercussions. Many other living things did.
As for Tarkir, the timeline seems to imply that Tarkir didn't have dragonstorms until Ugin created them somehow. That means living things there were doing their own thing. But Ugin seems to have decided to introduce flocks (or whatever the dragon term is) of apex predators to prowl the skies and eat up people and other living things. Again, he's using a plane for his own purposes/fun. It evidences a disregard of the wants, needs, and lives of those already on the plane. Dragons are literally killing people all over the plane.
Using a plane like this for your own experiment or fun seems more selfish than not. He didn't have to live with the repercussions. Many other living things did.
He also uses Azor. He convinces Azor to create the Immortal Sun to trap Bolas on Tarkir (pretty much dooming the plane, since Bolas would go ape***** trapped on a plane). And Azor has to use his spark to do it, sacrificing almost his soul for Ugin's plan. What did Ugin tell Azor? Was it the truth? Do dragons lie? Doesn't Bolas? EDIT: Just remembered Ugin was to draw Bolas to Ixalan from Tarkir, not trap Bolas on Tarkir.
He also uses Jace. He knows Jace is going to face Bolas, so digs through Jace's head and plants a kill-switch to attract Bolas to Ixalan, where he may get trapped. That's how I remember it, I may be totally wrong. But again, he's just using people.
So for these reasons I (subjectively!) believe Ugin acts almost as selfishly as Bolas, and just because he describes his impact on planes in a nicer way doesn't mean he's not just as bad in that impact as Bolas is. But again, open to debate! I'm eager to see what other pieces of this tale and puzzle are presented in the coming weeks.
The problem is we cannot tell if Ugin was being straight with Nahiri and Azor because he gets killed or put into the regeneration pod. Ergo there is no way to tell if he was ever going to help Nahiri with the Eldrazi or help Azor get his spark back.
But Ugin is clearly the bigger picture sort. So do I think he has any problem trading some lives for the greater good in his mind, absolutely not. Doesn't make him a Villain though. There has after all been no reports or anything to suggest Ugin pulled a Bolas, Lili and Ob Nixlis and went to planes with the expressed purpose of killing for conquest or **** and giggles.
Not really sure how imprisoning is as bad as killing them. If you observe major problems in the multiverse as a result of the Titans missing well then you can release them and if not you can kill them or keep them imprisoned. The issue to mind is more what sort of time scale do they operate on? Humans operate on a short time scale, insects even shorter but the geological time scale of the Earth is much longer. The Sun even longer.
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If it would have been significant if they where anything else, the author would have mentioned it.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
I mean no but they got to be vaguely humanoid since they are riding horses. Seems like if they weren't humans that be good enough to mention. I mean I guess they could be Elves lol.
Those are Nicol Bolas's very first words. And they're immensely significant; his very first sensations in life are the feelings of being trapped and powerless.
This was a very well-written piece. Easily the best writing we've had all year. It's suitably elegant and poetic, and the brutality is hard-hitting and primal. Dead dogs, the twins cut from their dead mother, stillborn dragons, smashed goblins, the graphic details of the hunt--this is very visceral stuff, and it really drives home the harshness of both worlds--the rugged frontier land and the primordial (Dominaria?) where civilization is just in its infancy.
I loved it. This author has real talent, and I can't wait to read more from her.
The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.
Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.[/quote]
To me the power released by the Elder Dragons during death is a reference to both Piru (whose power was stolen by Geyadrone Dihada after being killed by Dakkon) and Chromium Rhuell (was life force was used in the Summit of the Null Moon by Tevesh Szat, Farlayn and Leshrac to break the Shard and flee to Shandalar).
My feeling is that the bipedal humanoids were elves. But also remember humans exist within the next 7-8,000 years because the Numena had to overthrow the Primevals.
I think the Elder Dragons that didn't hatch might be the origin of The First Eruption creation myth on Shiv. I think it's Chromium that ducks his head into the crater their impact creates and the implication is the mountain has become a volcano.
The implication is that the Primevals are a later clutch of dragons spawned by the Ur-Dragon.
I'm not sure what the Darigaaz/Tarox fight you're referring to is. I don't see that implication in their bios. It might happen, because Tarox seeks supremacy and will eventually eat his siblings, but that version of Tarox hasn't happened yet (and may not come to pass).
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
You are assuming the great beast that birthed the eggs isn't the Ur-Dragon, The Implication in the story is that the Ur-Dragon lives/lived in the blind eternities and planted eggs on planes, which explains why there are Dragons on every plane.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
- The Elder Dragon eggstones falling to earth like meteors.
- Nicol Bolas not being pure evil from the start. Seeing him show empathy and actually caring about someone else, even as we also glimpse the early seeds of his future savagery. It gives him much-needed layer and nuance.
-Bolas and Ugin starting out as the runts. Bolas experiencing smallness and powerlessness from the very start.
-Seeing the primordial, neolithic Dominaria (I assume it's Dominaria?) It feels like the Elders have fallen right into a Jean M. Auel setting; an ancient, pre-civilized world full of wonder and possibility, where all of history still lies ahead.
-The twin girls paralleling Ugin and Bolas.
-Actually getting our earliest bit of MTG lore. It feels primal and even somewhat sacred; a privileged glimpse of primordial birth and creation. It even seems scriptural at times.
-The beautiful, violent, evocative imagery.
Until today, I had absolutely no curiosity whatsoever about the history of the Elder Dragons and their war. This story did me a 180. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm breathless for more.
An apology, I did a big assumption that in the bio for Verix that his son is secretly seeking to take control of the dragons from the champion Darigaaz, and him seeking to undo the wrongs of the past as a leader, could be an issue that was started here. I just want in a return to Dominaria to witness the battle between these two dragons.
This is probably the most positive comment I've seen about this story. I'm also interested to see where they go with this backstory, and this does shed some light on why Bolas thinks and acts the way he does. He clearly had the capacity to care about his family, and we see a lot of the "red" side of him with his impatience, lust for revenge and recklessness. However, as the flashback progressed, we start to see the more calculating and introspective side of him. Instead of just being hellbent on revenge, he stops for a moment and considers that maybe that's just how things are and he just has to be as high in the food chain as possible. This is more like the Bolas we currently know.
Ugin doesn't want to kill the Eldrazi, because he fears they might serve a crucial role in the multiverse, a sentiment that we, living in the modern world with the various ecosystems we have messed up due to ignorance, should relate to the most.
He also didn't abandon Azor. Ugin was comatose. (Or even legit dead, in another timeline.) As for why Azor had to borrow his spark? I assume that A) Azor had a closer conenction to the immortal sun, being a hieromancer and all and B) Ugin would have to lure Bolas to Ixalan, which is probably easier if you can still follow Bolas.
I'm not saying Ugin is a nice character. He's an elder dragon and an oldwalker, I think being a bit of a dick comes with the package, but claiming that he doesn't care or is selfish is just... wow.
Would be nice if this was the origen of the [lizard race wotc avoid] in Dominaria ( or whatever plane or place they where).
In fact, Nicol Bolas seems to care more that "weak" creatures have the nerve to attack a dragon. Does Bolas really care about his sister? Or rather the implication that he too could be attacked and killed by something he deems less-than? Ugin shows more intelligence, strength of character, and compassion in this story than Bolas.
Reference of Bolas caring about himself being attacked not his sister: '"We can avenge her. These puny creatures cannot be allowed to attack us."'
Reference of Ugin being right, and looking out for his twin: 'Annoyed because Ugin is right[...]'
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
I meant the hunters become viashino after consuming the elder dragon not that they already are any sort of lizardfolk. They could be elves or some other primal species but are changed/evolved after taking the power from the elder dragon they killed.
Even so, after thinking about it last night it is probably such a far-fetched idea it probably wouldn't have been written that way. I double there would be a need to explain viashino heritage right now when it seems the hunters only serve as a plot device to push Bolas to fear the power of groups. The story is setting up why Bolas is uneasy about having the Gatewatch around. This is more likely than Bolas learning the importance of working with a group. Bolas doesn't really plan or work with others the same way the hunters do.
"they've proven they can work together to accomplish a task that would be impossible for anyone alone....It is the hunters who are dangerous, with their weapons and the way they work together to achieve something they cannot do alone."
He leads and enslaves which is not what teamwork is. He also states multiple time how puny he sees the hunters and how offended he is they have killed a dragon. This is setting up his
arroganceconfidence, which is a trait we know Bolas has.To me the power released by the Elder Dragons during death is a reference to both Piru (whose power was stolen by Geyadrone Dihada after being killed by Dakkon) and Chromium Rhuell (was life force was used in the Summit of the Null Moon by Tevesh Szat, Farlayn and Leshrac to break the Shard and flee to Shandalar).[/quote]
I just think the power is what the type of thing that could change a species from whatever the hunters were to a half-dragon lizard people. Either way, it probably wasn't the author's intent since I can't see a reason why they would have asked her to include the origin of the viashino in her story. It just seems too obscure for a creature type that doesn't really get a lot of attention.
Came here to make an appreciative comment and saw that someone wrote exactly that what I wanted. Well said, sir
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Well the Eldrazi Titans would be ending planes unless some other Oldwalkers stepped up to stop them.
Considering Ugin wanted to keep them alive since he's concerned about their purpose in the ecosystem of the Multiverse, is that really a bad thing in the grand scheme of things?
He still took them out of commission. And he might be right they could have a purpose that makes them vital to the multiverse. Granted I doubt they do purely because the Gatewatch doesn't suffer direct consequences for their screwups. Its Free Passes for all.
So this is largely going to be a subjective debate, since 'good' and 'bad' can be argued til the end of time. So instead of saying I'm right, you're wrong, let me explain my (subjective) view.
Baby Ugin and Bolas are different from their ancient versions we know today. You can see the seeds that will grow into the elder dragons, but still they're different. So I re-read the trapped Bolas part again. Bolas does want to save his sibling who is being slaughtered. He's all action. Ugin thinks more about the situation. One person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling exclusively because he's worried about his twin brother. Another person could say that he shuts Bolas up and keeps him from struggling primarily because the struggle would draw attention not just to Bolas, but to Ugin as well, thereby risking Ugin's life. It's wide open for debate as to whether that moment was selfless or selfish.
Though Ugin is much more sanguine about the death of their sibling than Bolas is. Ugin is more 'oh well,' while Bolas is 'burn the motha down.' One response is objectively more rational than the other, but rational people can have rational points that are still selfish in nature. This too is wide open for debate.
As for the Eldrazi, Azor, the dragonstorms on Tarkir, most of what we know about Ugin's motives comes from Ugin.
Ugin says he wanted to study the Eldrazi. But he sacrificed an entire plane of living things to trap them there and cajoled an ally into keeping eternal watch over them. It created havoc on the plane and, as we are now aware, their escape from their prison led to the destruction of most of Zendikar. And if his primary purpose was to study them, why wasn't he there almost all the time with Nahiri? Why was she sleeping in stone, alone, for what seems to be most of the time? Did he have a plan for what to do after he was done studying them? (That we don't know) And if he so strongly believed the Eldrazi serve a purpose, why imprison them for thousands of years (or however long, I forget the specifics)? Wouldn't that ruin their purpose just as much as killing them?
Using a plane like this for your own 'study' seems more selfish than not. He didn't have to live with the repercussions. Many other living things did.
As for Tarkir, the timeline seems to imply that Tarkir didn't have dragonstorms until Ugin created them somehow. That means living things there were doing their own thing. But Ugin seems to have decided to introduce flocks (or whatever the dragon term is) of apex predators to prowl the skies and eat up people and other living things. Again, he's using a plane for his own purposes/fun. It evidences a disregard of the wants, needs, and lives of those already on the plane. Dragons are literally killing people all over the plane.
Using a plane like this for your own experiment or fun seems more selfish than not. He didn't have to live with the repercussions. Many other living things did.
He also uses Azor. He convinces Azor to create the Immortal Sun to trap Bolas on Tarkir (pretty much dooming the plane, since Bolas would go ape***** trapped on a plane). And Azor has to use his spark to do it, sacrificing almost his soul for Ugin's plan. What did Ugin tell Azor? Was it the truth? Do dragons lie? Doesn't Bolas? EDIT: Just remembered Ugin was to draw Bolas to Ixalan from Tarkir, not trap Bolas on Tarkir.
He also uses Jace. He knows Jace is going to face Bolas, so digs through Jace's head and plants a kill-switch to attract Bolas to Ixalan, where he may get trapped. That's how I remember it, I may be totally wrong. But again, he's just using people.
So for these reasons I (subjectively!) believe Ugin acts almost as selfishly as Bolas, and just because he describes his impact on planes in a nicer way doesn't mean he's not just as bad in that impact as Bolas is. But again, open to debate! I'm eager to see what other pieces of this tale and puzzle are presented in the coming weeks.
But Ugin is clearly the bigger picture sort. So do I think he has any problem trading some lives for the greater good in his mind, absolutely not. Doesn't make him a Villain though. There has after all been no reports or anything to suggest Ugin pulled a Bolas, Lili and Ob Nixlis and went to planes with the expressed purpose of killing for conquest or **** and giggles.
Not really sure how imprisoning is as bad as killing them. If you observe major problems in the multiverse as a result of the Titans missing well then you can release them and if not you can kill them or keep them imprisoned. The issue to mind is more what sort of time scale do they operate on? Humans operate on a short time scale, insects even shorter but the geological time scale of the Earth is much longer. The Sun even longer.