Got to agree with Azurhawk here, Magic characters (even the protagonists) don't feel real enough for me to see them as "role models", so to say. But if I had to choose one, I'd probably say Ugin. I like his pragmatic, contemplative and holistic way of thinking, although it tends to strip away the more personal, emotional side of things. I liked Toshiro in the Kamigawa novels, but although he was sympathetic, he's hardly someone you'd aspire to be.
Artwork-wise, Gaddock Teeg (Lorwyn version) is probably my favourite. It's just a great portrait piece, I love the light and how wise, but also stubborn he looks.
He's literally made of silver. No reproductive capabilities. He's asexual and genderless, but appears male, with a late male's spark. Not that I'm partial to this type of character or representation (it's a bit... out there) but it's there, and I'm sure there are those who identify with Karn I suppose. I certainly don't or care to, but I can see where Creative is coming from.
I think the issue with Karn's gender is simply that since he looks male people think of him as male and he doesn't bother/care enough to correct them, making him de facto male. (Many/some) People IRL don't see/think of/treat him as genderless, because no one in lore does. He's always just been "male."
There is no issue, Karn is described as "he" in his official biography, so he should be considered as a male, how his body is made doesn't really matter.
He's also never had a gender. He's referred to as "he" because English lacks a gender neutral pronoun that can be applied to sapient beings. "It" is used for objects and animals, but seems odd to use for a thing like a person.
I knew someone would say that
But you're wrong. Read Ashiok and Hallar biography, the writters know how to keep the gender ambigious, the writters could twist Karn's bio in order to make him genderless but they didn't. They kept the ambiguity with Ashiok. They kept the ambiguity with Hallar. They didn't with Karn.
Karn also entered the narrative at a time (real life) when the mainstream simply didn't much care about gender identity/conformity. His original writers/creators very likely never even considered presenting him in a non-gendered way.
I think the issue with Karn's gender is simply that since he looks male people think of him as male and he doesn't bother/care enough to correct them, making him de facto male. (Many/some) People IRL don't see/think of/treat him as genderless, because no one in lore does. He's always just been "male."
There is no issue, Karn is described as "he" in his official biography, so he should be considered as a male, how his body is made doesn't really matter.
He's also never had a gender. He's referred to as "he" because English lacks a gender neutral pronoun that can be applied to sapient beings. "It" is used for objects and animals, but seems odd to use for a thing like a person.
I knew someone would say that
But you're wrong. Read Ashiok and Hallar biography, the writters know how to keep the gender ambigious, the writters could twist Karn's bio in order to make him genderless but they didn't. They kept the ambiguity with Ashiok. They kept the ambiguity with Hallar. They didn't with Karn.
Karn also entered the narrative at a time (real life) when the mainstream simply didn't much care about gender identity/conformity. His original writers/creators very likely never even considered presenting him in a non-gendered way.
While that's true, the lack of reproductive organs still doesn't make him agender.
Look, this isn't even trying to be a smart-alec in an annoying way. The thread is about identifying with characters based on ideals and behaviour. How do genitals factor into these things? I can't speak for the OP, but it feels like the opposite of what the thread is trying to achieve, even if we ignore the fact that there's a difference between gender and sex and that even today many people still have to fight abuse due to ignorance in this area.
I like planeswalkers that can stick to the plan and stay on topic without being sidetracked.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I'm not a fan of "badassery" that's so prevalent in culture these days, it's a stereotypical John-Wayne trait that spawned from old school masculinity, so much so I think it's doing characters a disfavor that, instead of exemplify different qualities of full spectrum of persona, it force characters into that narrow mold, "You can't be influential to the plot unless you are aggressive, physical, don't show vulnerability and don't give a F."
Which is why I appreciate Jace (since Ixalan) so much, because he's being an effective, plot alternating NERD who's actually convincing. He's open to emotions and interpersonal bonds, both positive and negative, with naivety, insight, and hesitation to weigh on his decision. He became a human with strength and weakness instead of a mere "badass telepath". His victory over an old walker was with confidence and handled his traumatic past, and though I question his verdict with Azor I know he did it with the betterment of multiverse in mind. Confidence, intellect, and compassion are so much sexier than muscle and badassery.
BUT, my favorite male character remains Ajani, because in addition to confidence, intellect, and compassion, he's also wise and huggable. Members of Gatewatch all went through their respective crisis, Ajani appeared to be the only one learned his lesson. I'd pick Teferi as well, his growth from a Disruptive Student to archmage of time in itself is memoir worthy, though his appearance in recent stories wasn't as impressive as when he was in the books.
Agree with everything you said as well as add while Ajani had his "grrr I'm angry moment" he also "been allowed" to show sadness with his brother and Elspeth, which is one reason he is my fav walker.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
While that's true, the lack of reproductive organs still doesn't make him agender.
Look, this isn't even trying to be a smart-alec in an annoying way. The thread is about identifying with characters based on ideals and behaviour. How do genitals factor into these things? I can't speak for the OP, but it feels like the opposite of what the thread is trying to achieve, even if we ignore the fact that there's a difference between gender and sex and that even today many people still have to fight abuse due to ignorance in this area.
Yeah, in-story Karn identifies as male and uses male pronouns so he can be included in the topic if people want to discuss him.
This is true even if the non-story reason for that is the writers not thinking about gender identity at the time he was designed.
Like, the presence or absence of a character's genitals isn't really a sfw conversation topic (and if you were talking about actual people rather than characters would be both creepily obsessive and none of your business), so I'm going to strongly suggest moving on.
So: I like Karn. True pacifism is hard (and maybe questionable depending on the context it occurs in) but it takes admirable strength to make a moral stand like that. Karn is kind of inspiring.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
Well, i like Sorin but i doubt he's an example for real life
There is no issue, Karn is described as "he" in his official biography, so he should be considered as a male, how his body is made doesn't really matter.
He's also never had a gender. He's referred to as "he" because English lacks a gender neutral pronoun that can be applied to sapient beings. "It" is used for objects and animals, but seems odd to use for a thing like a person.
I knew someone would say that
But you're wrong. Read Ashiok and Hallar biography, the writters know how to keep the gender ambigious, the writters could twist Karn's bio in order to make him genderless but they didn't. They kept the ambiguity with Ashiok. They kept the ambiguity with Hallar. They didn't with Karn.
Karn also entered the narrative at a time (real life) when the mainstream simply didn't much care about gender identity/conformity. His original writers/creators very likely never even considered presenting him in a non-gendered way.
While that's true, the lack of reproductive organs still doesn't make him agender.
Look, this isn't even trying to be a smart-alec in an annoying way. The thread is about identifying with characters based on ideals and behaviour. How do genitals factor into these things? I can't speak for the OP, but it feels like the opposite of what the thread is trying to achieve, even if we ignore the fact that there's a difference between gender and sex and that even today many people still have to fight abuse due to ignorance in this area.
While that's true, the lack of reproductive organs still doesn't make him agender.
Look, this isn't even trying to be a smart-alec in an annoying way. The thread is about identifying with characters based on ideals and behaviour. How do genitals factor into these things? I can't speak for the OP, but it feels like the opposite of what the thread is trying to achieve, even if we ignore the fact that there's a difference between gender and sex and that even today many people still have to fight abuse due to ignorance in this area.
Yeah, in-story Karn identifies as male and uses male pronouns so he can be included in the topic if people want to discuss him.
This is true even if the non-story reason for that is the writers not thinking about gender identity at the time he was designed.
Like, the presence or absence of a character's genitals isn't really a sfw conversation topic (and if you were talking about actual people rather than characters would be both creepily obsessive and none of your business), so I'm going to strongly suggest moving on.
So: I like Karn. True pacifism is hard (and maybe questionable depending on the context it occurs in) but it takes admirable strength to make a moral stand like that. Karn is kind of inspiring.
I think I've maybe been wording my responses poorly, because I actually agree that Karn is fair game for this thread. It was never my intention to argue that he's not male, I was discussing reader's perception of his gender, not his gender itself (I freely admit that I should have said "Most people don't see him as genderless" instead of "Many/some"). (I will however note that per MaRo, Karn doesn't personally identify as male, but rather others identify him as such and he simply doesn't care enough about how others perceive him to correct them. Again, as per MaRo.)
Karn as presented in the narrative is for all intents and purposes male, but is labeled as genderless by some in the meta (including at least one member of WotC). When I said "the issue with Karn's gender" I was again specifically referring to people's/reader's perception of his gender/genderlessness, not whether he has one or not.
I brought up the fact that Karn's writers/creators very likely never even thought of presenting him as genderless not as some sort of argument for him being genderless, but as an argument that his writers/creators would in all likelyhood have never even intended for him to be perceived of as NOT having one(male).
I wasn't the one who said he was genderless (Though again I admit that my previous replies may have left some ambiguity). You'll also note that I never brought genitals or reproduction into it.
I wasn't the one who said he was genderless (Though again I admit that my previous replies may have left some ambiguity). You'll also note that I never brought genitals or reproduction into it.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single you out. It's difficult to quote everyone when you want to adress the discussion in general.
Arvad: Despite being cursed into a naturally evil, predatory state, the guy risked his life to travel hundreds of miles to get to the Weatherlight, all in the name of repressing the curse inside him. Basically, he's shoving down his natural evil through sheer willpower (with a bit of help from the powerstone).
Teferi: Eternally loyal, loving family man who has greatly matured and learned from the centuries of mistakes he's made- yet avoids being morose about his immortality.
Gideon: Enough's been said about him already.
Djeru: Unflinchingly loyal to his friends and family. Steadfast in his beliefs, but willing to change them once he realizes the truth. Although I hate to think of how he feels once he figures out his mercy killing of his brother was for absolutely zilch.
Sram: We only saw a bit of him, but how hard do you think it is to keep a cities infrastructure going in the midst of a rebellion? That said, he cares enough about the people under him that even he knew when to quit when their safety was jeopardized.
Dovin Baan: Yes, he's a total stick-up-the-rear bureaucrat, but at least he's a bureaucrat who genuinely believes in the process, not bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, and he certainly has a strong sense of justice. I'd never want him to be ruler, but there's a place in every good government for men like Baan.
I can't believe I forgot Arvad, he's another good example of the Gideon-type "doing good despite bs" character I like.
Agreed. Arvad reminds me a little bit of Spike (a vampire) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Also of Loki from Marvel's movie universe, where he struggles with inherent issues and tries to overcome them. (Although often failing.)
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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Artwork-wise, Gaddock Teeg (Lorwyn version) is probably my favourite. It's just a great portrait piece, I love the light and how wise, but also stubborn he looks.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Karn also entered the narrative at a time (real life) when the mainstream simply didn't much care about gender identity/conformity. His original writers/creators very likely never even considered presenting him in a non-gendered way.
While that's true, the lack of reproductive organs still doesn't make him agender.
Look, this isn't even trying to be a smart-alec in an annoying way. The thread is about identifying with characters based on ideals and behaviour. How do genitals factor into these things? I can't speak for the OP, but it feels like the opposite of what the thread is trying to achieve, even if we ignore the fact that there's a difference between gender and sex and that even today many people still have to fight abuse due to ignorance in this area.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Agree with everything you said as well as add while Ajani had his "grrr I'm angry moment" he also "been allowed" to show sadness with his brother and Elspeth, which is one reason he is my fav walker.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This is true even if the non-story reason for that is the writers not thinking about gender identity at the time he was designed.
Like, the presence or absence of a character's genitals isn't really a sfw conversation topic (and if you were talking about actual people rather than characters would be both creepily obsessive and none of your business), so I'm going to strongly suggest moving on.
So: I like Karn. True pacifism is hard (and maybe questionable depending on the context it occurs in) but it takes admirable strength to make a moral stand like that. Karn is kind of inspiring.
Art is life itself.
I think I've maybe been wording my responses poorly, because I actually agree that Karn is fair game for this thread. It was never my intention to argue that he's not male, I was discussing reader's perception of his gender, not his gender itself (I freely admit that I should have said "Most people don't see him as genderless" instead of "Many/some"). (I will however note that per MaRo, Karn doesn't personally identify as male, but rather others identify him as such and he simply doesn't care enough about how others perceive him to correct them. Again, as per MaRo.)
Karn as presented in the narrative is for all intents and purposes male, but is labeled as genderless by some in the meta (including at least one member of WotC). When I said "the issue with Karn's gender" I was again specifically referring to people's/reader's perception of his gender/genderlessness, not whether he has one or not.
I brought up the fact that Karn's writers/creators very likely never even thought of presenting him as genderless not as some sort of argument for him being genderless, but as an argument that his writers/creators would in all likelyhood have never even intended for him to be perceived of as NOT having one(male).
I wasn't the one who said he was genderless (Though again I admit that my previous replies may have left some ambiguity). You'll also note that I never brought genitals or reproduction into it.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to single you out. It's difficult to quote everyone when you want to adress the discussion in general.
He better realizes the consequencess of choices- his own and others and how they influence one’s world and identity.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Arvad: Despite being cursed into a naturally evil, predatory state, the guy risked his life to travel hundreds of miles to get to the Weatherlight, all in the name of repressing the curse inside him. Basically, he's shoving down his natural evil through sheer willpower (with a bit of help from the powerstone).
Teferi: Eternally loyal, loving family man who has greatly matured and learned from the centuries of mistakes he's made- yet avoids being morose about his immortality.
Gideon: Enough's been said about him already.
Djeru: Unflinchingly loyal to his friends and family. Steadfast in his beliefs, but willing to change them once he realizes the truth. Although I hate to think of how he feels once he figures out his mercy killing of his brother was for absolutely zilch.
Sram: We only saw a bit of him, but how hard do you think it is to keep a cities infrastructure going in the midst of a rebellion? That said, he cares enough about the people under him that even he knew when to quit when their safety was jeopardized.
Dovin Baan: Yes, he's a total stick-up-the-rear bureaucrat, but at least he's a bureaucrat who genuinely believes in the process, not bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, and he certainly has a strong sense of justice. I'd never want him to be ruler, but there's a place in every good government for men like Baan.
Art is life itself.
Agreed. Arvad reminds me a little bit of Spike (a vampire) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Also of Loki from Marvel's movie universe, where he struggles with inherent issues and tries to overcome them. (Although often failing.)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."