I think that's in keeping with what I said about their versatility. UBG knows there's a time to keep its resources close and a time to make investments, it knows there's a time to hold back and a time to go all-out, and it knows there's a time to be civilized and a time to abandon any pretense of subtlety. By the same token, it knows there's a time to stick with the status quo and a time to adapt to changing circumstances. As you said, it's likely to stick with the established order as long as that order is beneficial to it, but it's also very capable of adapting to a new system if it's forced to by external factors, or even simply because a better option happened to come along. It won't support change on its own, but it won't resist change if doing so would leave it worse off. The example italofoca gave about slavery vs. abolitionism is a perfect illustration of what I mean.
I can see UBG as an adviser or businessman that's managed to stay near the top of the political/social hierarchy through multiple revolutions, because it's smart enough not to rock the boat or make any waves for whatever regime is currently in power, but also smart enough to switch sides when that regime seems to be on the verge of falling.
Sultai seems the True Neutral Color Combo...it can operate under any political system and be just fine maybe it won't excel under every circumstance and be the absolute best but I think it can also be the top 3 out of 10 trios.
Also every for-profit organization essentially is GUB at its core. If BGW are the colors of conservativism, RWU the colors of (liberal) idealism and WRB the colors of political/religious fanaticism, GUB are the colors of capitalism. Businesses don't do the stuff they do for the heck of it (R) or because they want to make society a better place (W), they do it because they want (need) to survive and grow. The wedge can be perfectly non-villanous under the right circumstances.
What "ism" would URG be? I think it would have to be something related to natural sciences, but I can't think of a word…
Also every for-profit organization essentially is GUB at its core. If BGW are the colors of conservativism, RWU the colors of (liberal) idealism and WRB the colors of political/religious fanaticism, GUB are the colors of capitalism. Businesses don't do the stuff they do for the heck of it (R) or because they want to make society a better place (W), they do it because they want (need) to survive and grow. The wedge can be perfectly non-villanous under the right circumstances.
What "ism" would URG be? I think it would have to be something related to natural sciences, but I can't think of a word…
I love this thread, Capitalism is exactly what I thought of for BUG.
I don't really see a lot of Red or Green with the Scientific Method personally. It feels very much like a WU kind of way to do things. Red/Blue/Green seems more... artsy than sciency too. RU blurs the line a lot on that, and GU is pretty... holistic to be very methodical in that way, hard to word.
And Capitalism is very much a BUG thing, though I feel like it's a more Black leaning way of doing things as opposed to the UG angle.
Also every for-profit organization essentially is GUB at its core. If BGW are the colors of conservativism, RWU the colors of (liberal) idealism and WRB the colors of political/religious fanaticism, GUB are the colors of capitalism. Businesses don't do the stuff they do for the heck of it (R) or because they want to make society a better place (W), they do it because they want (need) to survive and grow. The wedge can be perfectly non-villanous under the right circumstances.
What "ism" would URG be? I think it would have to be something related to natural sciences, but I can't think of a word…
I think URG is inherently opposed to ideologies in general. Its lack of WB means it's the least social of the color triads, so it's wholly apathetic to how society is run. Even anarchism and primitivism are more associated with BRG, since URG isn't opposed to the idea of a society existing, it just doesn't care if there's a society in place or not. I agree with Xeruh that even the scientific method is too methodical and formulaic for the freeform curiosity and creativity of URG. There might be URG characters who use the scientific method as a tool, but it's not what drives them. The closest thing to a URG ideology is probably something like the philosophy of Diogenes. Red/Green hedonism combined with Blue knowledge-seeking and a total absence of Black concern for status or White concern for etiquette.
Completely agreed about UBG being the color triad of capitalism. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there in the concrete jungle, and only the most ruthless, efficient, and adaptable businesses survive. (To continue the Star Trek references: If the Federation is WUR, the Romulans are WUB, the Klingons are WBR, and the Dominion is WBG, then the Ferengi would be UBG. Their entire culture is based around the Blue/Black ideal of improving oneself through material wealth, on both the individual and societal levels, but it's also tempered by a Green emphasis on stability and strict adherence to tradition, which keeps their civilization from degenerating into a war of all against all.)
I don't really see a lot of Red or Green with the Scientific Method personally. It feels very much like a WU kind of way to do things. Red/Blue/Green seems more... artsy than sciency too. RU blurs the line a lot on that, and GU is pretty... holistic to be very methodical in that way, hard to word.
And Capitalism is very much a BUG thing, though I feel like it's a more Black leaning way of doing things as opposed to the UG angle.
Funny, I think of it the exact opposite way. WU might be useful for science by establishing certain moral guidelines or searching for natural laws, but it is also much to strict and more interested in following laws to the letter than abandoning them if they prove to not actually represent nature / prove to be hindering science without needing to. WU would restrict science if it felt that further progress would impede the establishment of its perfectly lawful society in a heartbeat. WU can be the color combination of the people regulating science (as I said, by establishing moral and even certain methodological guidelines that neither R, U or G would enforce otherwise), but it is definitely not representing science or the scientific method, it's too rigid for that.
For me RU symbolizes the experimental side of science, R providing the raw creativity and "let's do it because why not"-approach of basic science to blues' careful methodology and goal to find out as much about the world as possible. GU on the other hand is more of the theoretical side of science with its holistic approach and respect for nature (necessary to not let ideological or personal biases ruin your ability as a scientist to discard your pet hypothesis once it's shown to not represent nature). And while Ravnica isn't representative of every aspect of the color combinations, it clearly established Izzet to be the physics/engineering side of science and Simic to be the biology side. The only problem with Temur being the "science wedge" is GR. That color combo clearly has no interest whatsoever in science. Therefore I would argue that only UGR, not GRU nor RUG are representing the scientific method. I think blue as the center can somewhat limit greens and reds aversion to at least following certain rules. Blue and white together would just smother creativity for the sake of following rules and that would be horrendous for science (though probably good for a bureaucracy, which I think this color combination often actually represents, and that is not necessarily a bad thing).
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, a true science hero would probably be URGW, since black doesn't really care for science if it doesn't net it some kind of gain, which basic science usually rarely does (and even the knowledge it provides is most often not the kind that would give black more power or at least reputation outside the scientific community).
You're looking at a broad view of science, that isn't the same thing as following the scientific method. As a broad rule it's pretty much not how Red works at all. Whereas the "come up with a theory, test the theory, refine the theory, repeat" kind of process is a much more methodical way of doing things, very much in line with White/Blue. I would go so far as to say that following the scientific method in general is pretty out of hands for most Red characters, it's certainly not something I see the Izzet following for instance. The entire point of following the scientific method is to be very not-Red in general, to provide uniform and consistent findings and the like.
I don't really agree with the rest in regards to White/Blue on science broadly, but it's kind of unrelated to the main point I was making. Namely that the scientific method isn't the same thing as liking science in general.
I also think that URG can represent the scientific method just fine. While order is very closely associated with W, that doesn’t mean color combos without W can’t use any form of order, especially if they include its ally colors. U doesn’t impose order willy-nilly (and on everyone), but has no apprehension to establishing some rules for itself (and by extension, everyone belonging to its group) if it thinks they will further its tasks and make them easier. What URG is missing is the ability to see the societal context it’s embedded in.
The only problem with Temur being the "science wedge" is GR. That color combo clearly has no interest whatsoever in science. Therefore I would argue that only UGR, not GRU nor RUG are representing the scientific method. I think blue as the center can somewhat limit greens and reds aversion to at least following certain rules. Blue and white together would just smother creativity for the sake of following rules and that would be horrendous for science (though probably good for a bureaucracy, which I think this color combination often actually represents, and that is not necessarily a bad thing).
WU can help science, provided they understand its purpose and goals properly. Through their focus on organizational systems, they can ensure that research is being directed at certain important points and thus prevent it from becoming too scattered. This would make it easier to plan ahead and properly check how far research has progressed and also help when it comes to ensuring funds etc. There is a conflict here of course, in fact one that can be seen everywhere in academia, i.e. properly defined and structured research with a preset "useful" outcome (that is portrayed to be beneficial for society in some way) VS basic research with no apparent rewards or applications, at least in the near future (“science for science’s sake”, if you will).
I agree that URG (focus on U) are the “science colors” whereas GRU and RUG are not. RG in this combination, coupled with U, cares about finding on a personal level what one might dub “primal truth” – a group or organization that is primarily RG with a splash of U would therefore be more spiritually inclined. The Temur are a good example for that: There are truth-seekers, but their main focus isn’t necessarily on finding or knowing the truth, but living it. The Temur whisperers have a pretty vague method of “knowing the truth” and they don’t need a more methodological approach because they believe that they already possess the innate/intuitive and therefore most powerful form of knowing.
Because of all this, I think the philosophy of Diogenes KarnTerrier mentioned fits the color triad exceptionally well. From the Wiki article of Cynicism (in the ancient greek, not contemporary sense):
For the Cynics, the purpose of life is to live in virtue, in agreement with nature. As reasoning creatures, people can gain happiness by rigorous training and by living in a way which is natural for themselves, rejecting all conventional desires for wealth, power, sex, and fame. Instead, they were to lead a simple life free from all possessions.
“Virtue” sounds pretty W at first, but it’s not really something exclusive to the color. Every color has things it considers virtues and things it considers vices. The “a simple life free from all possessions” part also sounds a bit monastic, but framed in a right way (and maybe deemphasized a bit), it perfectly captures the RG pair of the wedge.
I say UW is Engineering and UR is more classic sciences minus Biology...the difference being UW cares about what is practical which is basically engineering which is very focused on application whereas I can see UR carrying far more about the theory and what is simply interesting even if the use isn't immediately obvious.
I guess but Aurelia only cares about military tech...Boros is the Military Industrial Complex. Whereas I figure UW would be a bit more broad in the practical applications.
A thought that occured to me is that Red/White/Black can also be associated with relatively benevolent self-help groups. Like imagine the League Dastardly Doom - which already encourage its members and have specific programs within it to help them - and pour White on it.
I say UW is Engineering and UR is more classic sciences minus Biology...the difference being UW cares about what is practical which is basically engineering which is very focused on application whereas I can see UR carrying far more about the theory and what is simply interesting even if the use isn't immediately obvious.
Yeah, totally agree here.
I think there's a very important R component in theoretical sciences (Abductive Reasoning). Things like intuition play a big implicit role in the early stages of theoretical research when for a moment theorists have to 'bet' on certain hypothesis or strategies without really knowing how reasonable they are or how successful it will be in the end.
After thinking about it some more, I'd agree that URG is the color combination of the scientific method. UG is about the most basic form of science, which is observation: studying and analyzing the world to figure out how it works. UR is about the most crucial part of science, which is experimentation: doing stuff to things to see what happens.
Combine the two of them and you have the scientific method. And while the scientific method is a rigorous process that requires a lot of patience, I don't think that means it has to be White. Blue cares a lot about adhering to rules and following procedures too, but it's for the sake of doing things as efficiently, thoroughly, and reliably as possible (e.g. establishing the best methodology for learning new things about the world), not for the social or moral reasons that drive White. And while Red and Green are more chaotic, Red can be passionate to the point of focusing obsessively on a single task (such as running the same kinds of experiments over and over again to gather data), and Green is nothing if not patient.
WU and UB aren't really about science at all, they're about engineering: applying one's existing knowledge of how things work to build something that has practical uses. UR is associated with engineering too, but it's more about invention: building completely new things as an expression of creativity, regardless of their practicality or lack thereof. URinventions tend to fall into the No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup category and can often be dangerous, unpredictable, needlessly complicated, or simply useless, whereas WU and UB are more about finding the most pragmatic and ergonomic design for a device and sticking with it.
I would say UB can do anything but they are not limited by ethics at all. Think eh Nazi Germany for instance. Morality has no place in their science and engineering.
UG is life sciences and applying natural stuff to other problems. Synthetic meat in the labs could be done as well....if B mixes in to these two colors plagues would be on the menu.
RW though as noted purely focuses on Military Tech and Logistics. If its not helping the military do something more efficiently they don't care. They are the most narrow but of course we do have the military to thank for the GPS and Internet but of course this is not color pair that necessarily advances it to the modern level
I saw the movie version of Thanos as mono W. He's all about balance for the sake of peace and order. He may be brutal, but so is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'd agree that White is his primary color, but I still see definite shades of Green and Black in his Malthusian view of nature. To put it another way, his willingness to do anything for the greater good is White, but his idea of what the greater good is is Green/Black.
On that note, I've changed my mind about the MCU version of Dr. Strange being Blue/Red/Green, that color combination fits the Dr. Strange of the comics, but not the movies. After re-watching Infinity War, I have to agree with the people saying he has White and Black traits: It's pretty clear that letting Thanos win is actually part of his plan, and a willingness to sacrifice trillions of people's lives for the sake of an eventual victory is definitely a White/Black approach; it's not really compatible with Red's concern for specific individuals. Thinking it over, I'd say that White/Blue/Black fits better than anything else.
Now that we have Knights of Eldraine in Mardu color (or at least as their prime colors), we can probably concluded that Mardu is passion R + dedication B tempered by discipline W?
I can see UBG as an adviser or businessman that's managed to stay near the top of the political/social hierarchy through multiple revolutions, because it's smart enough not to rock the boat or make any waves for whatever regime is currently in power, but also smart enough to switch sides when that regime seems to be on the verge of falling.
What "ism" would URG be? I think it would have to be something related to natural sciences, but I can't think of a word…
Why not methodological naturalism (aka: the scientific method)?
I love this thread, Capitalism is exactly what I thought of for BUG.
Spirits
And Capitalism is very much a BUG thing, though I feel like it's a more Black leaning way of doing things as opposed to the UG angle.
I think URG is inherently opposed to ideologies in general. Its lack of WB means it's the least social of the color triads, so it's wholly apathetic to how society is run. Even anarchism and primitivism are more associated with BRG, since URG isn't opposed to the idea of a society existing, it just doesn't care if there's a society in place or not. I agree with Xeruh that even the scientific method is too methodical and formulaic for the freeform curiosity and creativity of URG. There might be URG characters who use the scientific method as a tool, but it's not what drives them. The closest thing to a URG ideology is probably something like the philosophy of Diogenes. Red/Green hedonism combined with Blue knowledge-seeking and a total absence of Black concern for status or White concern for etiquette.
Completely agreed about UBG being the color triad of capitalism. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there in the concrete jungle, and only the most ruthless, efficient, and adaptable businesses survive. (To continue the Star Trek references: If the Federation is WUR, the Romulans are WUB, the Klingons are WBR, and the Dominion is WBG, then the Ferengi would be UBG. Their entire culture is based around the Blue/Black ideal of improving oneself through material wealth, on both the individual and societal levels, but it's also tempered by a Green emphasis on stability and strict adherence to tradition, which keeps their civilization from degenerating into a war of all against all.)
Funny, I think of it the exact opposite way. WU might be useful for science by establishing certain moral guidelines or searching for natural laws, but it is also much to strict and more interested in following laws to the letter than abandoning them if they prove to not actually represent nature / prove to be hindering science without needing to. WU would restrict science if it felt that further progress would impede the establishment of its perfectly lawful society in a heartbeat. WU can be the color combination of the people regulating science (as I said, by establishing moral and even certain methodological guidelines that neither R, U or G would enforce otherwise), but it is definitely not representing science or the scientific method, it's too rigid for that.
For me RU symbolizes the experimental side of science, R providing the raw creativity and "let's do it because why not"-approach of basic science to blues' careful methodology and goal to find out as much about the world as possible. GU on the other hand is more of the theoretical side of science with its holistic approach and respect for nature (necessary to not let ideological or personal biases ruin your ability as a scientist to discard your pet hypothesis once it's shown to not represent nature). And while Ravnica isn't representative of every aspect of the color combinations, it clearly established Izzet to be the physics/engineering side of science and Simic to be the biology side. The only problem with Temur being the "science wedge" is GR. That color combo clearly has no interest whatsoever in science. Therefore I would argue that only UGR, not GRU nor RUG are representing the scientific method. I think blue as the center can somewhat limit greens and reds aversion to at least following certain rules. Blue and white together would just smother creativity for the sake of following rules and that would be horrendous for science (though probably good for a bureaucracy, which I think this color combination often actually represents, and that is not necessarily a bad thing).
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, a true science hero would probably be URGW, since black doesn't really care for science if it doesn't net it some kind of gain, which basic science usually rarely does (and even the knowledge it provides is most often not the kind that would give black more power or at least reputation outside the scientific community).
I don't really agree with the rest in regards to White/Blue on science broadly, but it's kind of unrelated to the main point I was making. Namely that the scientific method isn't the same thing as liking science in general.
WU can help science, provided they understand its purpose and goals properly. Through their focus on organizational systems, they can ensure that research is being directed at certain important points and thus prevent it from becoming too scattered. This would make it easier to plan ahead and properly check how far research has progressed and also help when it comes to ensuring funds etc. There is a conflict here of course, in fact one that can be seen everywhere in academia, i.e. properly defined and structured research with a preset "useful" outcome (that is portrayed to be beneficial for society in some way) VS basic research with no apparent rewards or applications, at least in the near future (“science for science’s sake”, if you will).
I agree that URG (focus on U) are the “science colors” whereas GRU and RUG are not. RG in this combination, coupled with U, cares about finding on a personal level what one might dub “primal truth” – a group or organization that is primarily RG with a splash of U would therefore be more spiritually inclined. The Temur are a good example for that: There are truth-seekers, but their main focus isn’t necessarily on finding or knowing the truth, but living it. The Temur whisperers have a pretty vague method of “knowing the truth” and they don’t need a more methodological approach because they believe that they already possess the innate/intuitive and therefore most powerful form of knowing.
Because of all this, I think the philosophy of Diogenes KarnTerrier mentioned fits the color triad exceptionally well. From the Wiki article of Cynicism (in the ancient greek, not contemporary sense):
“Virtue” sounds pretty W at first, but it’s not really something exclusive to the color. Every color has things it considers virtues and things it considers vices. The “a simple life free from all possessions” part also sounds a bit monastic, but framed in a right way (and maybe deemphasized a bit), it perfectly captures the RG pair of the wedge.
Yeah, totally agree here.
I think there's a very important R component in theoretical sciences (Abductive Reasoning). Things like intuition play a big implicit role in the early stages of theoretical research when for a moment theorists have to 'bet' on certain hypothesis or strategies without really knowing how reasonable they are or how successful it will be in the end.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
UG is about the most basic form of science, which is observation: studying and analyzing the world to figure out how it works.
UR is about the most crucial part of science, which is experimentation: doing stuff to things to see what happens.
Combine the two of them and you have the scientific method. And while the scientific method is a rigorous process that requires a lot of patience, I don't think that means it has to be White. Blue cares a lot about adhering to rules and following procedures too, but it's for the sake of doing things as efficiently, thoroughly, and reliably as possible (e.g. establishing the best methodology for learning new things about the world), not for the social or moral reasons that drive White. And while Red and Green are more chaotic, Red can be passionate to the point of focusing obsessively on a single task (such as running the same kinds of experiments over and over again to gather data), and Green is nothing if not patient.
WU and UB aren't really about science at all, they're about engineering: applying one's existing knowledge of how things work to build something that has practical uses. UR is associated with engineering too, but it's more about invention: building completely new things as an expression of creativity, regardless of their practicality or lack thereof. URinventions tend to fall into the No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup category and can often be dangerous, unpredictable, needlessly complicated, or simply useless, whereas WU and UB are more about finding the most pragmatic and ergonomic design for a device and sticking with it.
UG is life sciences and applying natural stuff to other problems. Synthetic meat in the labs could be done as well....if B mixes in to these two colors plagues would be on the menu.
RW though as noted purely focuses on Military Tech and Logistics. If its not helping the military do something more efficiently they don't care. They are the most narrow but of course we do have the military to thank for the GPS and Internet but of course this is not color pair that necessarily advances it to the modern level
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
On that note, I've changed my mind about the MCU version of Dr. Strange being Blue/Red/Green, that color combination fits the Dr. Strange of the comics, but not the movies. After re-watching Infinity War, I have to agree with the people saying he has White and Black traits: It's pretty clear that letting Thanos win is actually part of his plan, and a willingness to sacrifice trillions of people's lives for the sake of an eventual victory is definitely a White/Black approach; it's not really compatible with Red's concern for specific individuals. Thinking it over, I'd say that White/Blue/Black fits better than anything else.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs