More than expressing my personal idea on the matter of Mu, what I am doing is indulging in the idea that we should not rely on clothing to identify the ??? Planeswalker with NOT-Yanling. Nothing is carved in the stone... this is even more important for a character supposedly moving from a promotional space to an extremely central plot point in the canon.
Arguably the only thing I'd consider in the ??? Planeswalker is the hat. That hat may not be there to do anything but hide a face (in a strikingly clumsy way, I'd say) and there should be no need to hide a face we don't know. We got that white blue mage without anything covering her face, why is this other one covered? A provocative question, but I think quite important.
I agree that Tezz using the Planar Bridge for the Phyrexians after War of the Spark makes sense. The only issue is that as far as we know, the Phyrexians have biological components. If the Eternals need to be encased in something, can Phyrexians be encased within pods or something to preserve themselves against the Blind Eternities?
My feeling toward having so many planeswalkers on the plane is that it's a bit too much. How many are fodder for deaths? Will all of them matter? If not, why bother including them? If so, how do they expect to not have chaos in story design?
I agree that Tezz using the Planar Bridge for the Phyrexians after War of the Spark makes sense.
Given that the Praetors hated Tezzeret going there would be utterly insane on his part
Quote from The Lost Confession »
The praetors were squabbling among themselves for supremacy. But they all began to despise the interloper, Tezzeret.
Him going back with Elesh Norn in charge is a good way to get himself flayed.
True at the time, but at the time Tezz didn't have the Planar Bridge. I think it was Elesh Norn who said the Gitaxians whispered among themselves about other worlds, and that Phyrexia's perfection must be brought there.
I think it's a safe bet that Tezz may not take over the Phyrexians (at first), but he'd likely be welcome if he could help them conquer other worlds. And by having sole control over the tech, he would likely start to have more and more influence.
When he was first there, he was a spy. He has substantially more value now, and what else is he going to be doing if Bolas gets knocked down? He's always wanted power for himself, from what I recall, and conquering the multiverse at the head of an 'artifact' army would not be outside the realm of possibility.
I agree that Tezz using the Planar Bridge for the Phyrexians after War of the Spark makes sense. The only issue is that as far as we know, the Phyrexians have biological components. If the Eternals need to be encased in something, can Phyrexians be encased within pods or something to preserve themselves against the Blind Eternities?
The Eternals have the benefit of being dead. So while their organic bits may be damaged, the magic animating them and the lazotep remain unaffected by the Blind Eternities. This allows them to be transported with the planar bridge with relative ease.
That said, I think the Phyrexians have a distinct advantage over the eternals when it comes to planar bridge transport:
They don't actually need to move individuals to another plane. We know that glistening oil can survive the blind eternities and can, over time, create new phyrexians to conquer the planes it ends up on.
From there, they need only use the bridge to communicate via a inorganic medium (ex: stone engravings) to coordinate efforts and supplies.
Give how much they like to "kick the puppy" with Karn I think its more likely that he tries to use the Cylix and it doesn't work right 100% (or slightly better for canon, it as a defective copy Urza tried to make) and rips a hole(s) into another plane(s) for the Phyrexians to escape and invalid into.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
True at the time, but at the time Tezz didn't have the Planar Bridge.
And do you know how going to NewPhy with something that Valuable ends with?
Elesh Norn : "Oh interesting toy you have there, GITAXAS hack that arm off him and perfect it." Which of course would lead to the plot fairy having to come down, swing her crappy wand and bestow Jin with the exact solution to make it possible for Flesh to go through the portal, just like she did for Tezzeret finding the thing in the first place. Which is a thing that seriously needs to stop happening in every single block.
Ok . I’d like to start off by saying I havnt done a whole lot of research, and basically skimmed threads for info. That being said the question I’m about to ask may have been addressed. The question is as follows:
WHERE IN THE **** IS UGIN?!
That is all. Thank you. This has been a psa from, the multiverse.
Just a heads-up, there was an article describing the spoiler methodology for War of the Spark, in which the author wrote that the spoilers will be released to paint a scene of what is happening in the story. But, the author specifically wrote that the forthcoming book is the canon source for the story of the set.
This makes me believe, as some of us have noticed, that they may have seen that some of the card presentations are not going to mesh perfectly with the book, so they're letting us know ahead of time that the book story is the one that matters.
Just a heads-up, there was an article describing the spoiler methodology for War of the Spark, in which the author wrote that the spoilers will be released to paint a scene of what is happening in the story. But, the author specifically wrote that the forthcoming book is the canon source for the story of the set.
Frankly I'm excited, it really feels like they are trying to tell a story as they do preview season. Plus if done well it could feel like get a story each day with spoilers.
Weisman says that we gonna get some interesting team up, so I could see walkers getting previewed in the groups they are joining up in. So I could see Karn and Ob cards being shown on the same day.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Just a heads-up, there was an article describing the spoiler methodology for War of the Spark, in which the author wrote that the spoilers will be released to paint a scene of what is happening in the story. But, the author specifically wrote that the forthcoming book is the canon source for the story of the set.
If only there were some magical way for the Author of the book to be able to make sure those articles didn't contradict the writer of the book.
Was that some random he got killed or was that the greatest thief in the multiverse?
Anyway I don't like Lili or Gideon and the romance that is suppose to make us care only started on Dominaria and took time away from better characters that hadn't been seen in forever. So yeah this trailer not for me.
Was that some random that got killed or was that the greatest thief in the multiverse?
Anyway I don't like Lili or Gideon and the romance that is suppose to make us care only started on Dominaria and took time away from better characters that hadn't been seen in forever. So yeah this trailer not for me.
Nor do I think Bolas will actually kill Lili which I would love to be true but not getting hopes up.
From the stream we learn Bolas is casting something called the elder spell that involves harvesting sparks (and he may have been planning to do this before the mending even). The trailer implied the eternals also have the ability to steal sparks for Bolas. Finally as a demoralizing blow, Bolas has the portal to Ravnica open right in the middle of the Chamber of Guildpact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Given how Bolas is only after the sparks, I wonder if he'll get some of the non-planeswalkers on Ravnica to join in on the harvesting.
At first I wondered what Dack's death has to do Liliana's actions, but after rewatching, I realized that the lack of significance is signficant. Liliana doesn't even watch Dack die. She ignores him. Instead she looks at the kids getting buried, which are coincidentally (or narratively not so) somewhat similar to her and Josu, with the girl trying to protect the boy. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
The trailer was very good. Apparently, this is the place to do it.
First, we do see Dack die onscreen... as time is moving backwards. Given that Teferi AND Bolas are involved, both of which should be time masters, this may mean that Dack is shown to die, to hit home that yes, indeed, PWs can die, but the time reversal may save his life. (For a comparison, the time reversal done by Ultear in Fairy Tail is a good analogy.)
I think the time flowing backwards at the beginning of the trailer is very significant. My current theory is that if it is, then Bolas was the one who reversed time. He saw that Liliana turns on him because of randos dying (from his perspective; not trying to belittle them from my POV), and turns back time long enough so that she doesn't see it. But she either remembers or is affected anyway. And she again turns on Bolas. Who activates her contract clause and starts to fry her. This clearly wouldn't be his primary choice, as he would lose control of the Dreadhorde if she dies. It is notable that he needed the Scarab God on Amonkhet to control them, so it's been established that he cannot do so on his own, or at least not as well.
Basically, it should be noted that the events are different going forwards and going backwards. Dack is either not killed or not shown in the time going forward, and neither are the normals. (Either they are brother and sister or mother and son. Hard to say which.)
Also, it should be noted that Liliana is shown to still have the Chain Veil. Another detail is that the farther back in time you go, the less you can see her contract lines. Since those may represent Bolas's control, it would mean going forward through time he is having to exert more and more control over her, which makes the lines show up.
As far as Liliana's ultimate fate, there are three main options that I see:
1) She dies. Probability is doubtful due to her popularity, but it certainly could go that way.
2) She manages to kill Bolas with the Dreadhorde before he kills her, and somehow survives. Not my personal top choice, but maybe.
3) Another party (likely PW) intervenes. We know that Gideon can protect others a little from Kaladesh, so maybe he can protect her; he's there, after all. Another possibility is that Teferi traps her in time. It seems clear that Bolas is activating her contract, as she is burning from the contract lines/scars. Since Teferi joined the Gatewatch, I figured a way for Liliana to survive her contract would be for Teferi to time bubble her, because the main benefit of the contract was eternal youth, and that would imply the penalty for breaking the contract would be for her to age rapidly.
I would also point out that if Bolas had this plan going since the Mending--and events on Amonkhet show this to be overwhelmingly likely--this means that he likely brokered the contract with Liliana, the perfect general for his Dreadhorde, immediately after setting up its creation. And that would fit with the history as we know it.
Edit:
So why Dack? All I can think right now is his -2 ability, and he is last seen approaching Liliana before getting his spark harvested.
Dack is a notable but minor character. So he may be just the redhand they need to show they're serious. OTOH, Dack is also a treasure hunter/thief. He may be the most knowledgeable person about cursed relics--or magical contracts--around. IOW, he may have been able to help Liliana with the Chain Veil, or with getting out of her contract.
First, we do see Dack die onscreen... as time is moving backwards. Given that Teferi AND Bolas are involved, both of which should be time masters, this may mean that Dack is shown to die, to hit home that yes, indeed, PWs can die, but the time reversal may save his life. (For a comparison, the time reversal done by Ultear in Fairy Tail is a good analogy.)
I think the time flowing backwards at the beginning of the trailer is very significant. My current theory is that if it is, then Bolas was the one who reversed time. He saw that Liliana turns on him because of randos dying (from his perspective; not trying to belittle them from my POV), and turns back time long enough so that she doesn't see it. But she either remembers or is affected anyway. And she again turns on Bolas. Who activates her contract clause and starts to fry her. This clearly wouldn't be his primary choice, as he would lose control of the Dreadhorde if she dies. It is notable that he needed the Scarab God on Amonkhet to control them, so it's been established that he cannot do so on his own, or at least not as well.
I'm not sure why people keep saying that the trailer indicates any sort of time travel shenanigans. To me it is clearly used as a stylistic device. We are supposed to see Liliana's actions first, then her second thoughts and THEN her turning on Bolas. If we first saw her having second thoughts and then watch Dack getting killed and siccing the undead on Gideon and THEN turning on Bolas destroys the pacing of the trailer.
Basically, it should be noted that the events are different going forwards and going backwards. Dack is either not killed or not shown in the time going forward, and neither are the normals. (Either they are brother and sister or mother and son. Hard to say which.)
No they are identical. Liliana sics the eternals on Gideon just right after Dack was killed. And the second, forward portion starts when she commands the eternals to attack Gideon. We do a little time skip, rather than repeating the children and Dack dying.
This is not to say that showing Dack dying in the forward portion would be bad. Personally I found that bit a little confusing and hard to read what is actually happening. Showing his death again in the proper order (because really, his scene is multiple elements that only make sense when viewed in the right order), even if shortened would have helped the trailer and maintain a coherency that it quite evidently lacks from these kinda comments. (Not that I'm blaming you. It IS rather confusing.)
So why Dack? All I can think right now is his -2 ability, and he is last seen approaching Liliana before getting his spark harvested.
I wouldn't read too much into this. They needed to kill a planeswalker in the trailer to show off how (and that) Bolas collects sparks. Dack is the least spoilery planeswalker to die and the least narratively loaded to interact with Liliana. Nissa for example, whose arc is finished, has too much previous business with Liliana. This interpersonal stuff, even if only in the minds of the viewers, would detract from the action/atmosphere. Plus, unlike Vivien, Dack is an established character. He has existed for years and as such his death carries some weight. And, unlike Nahiri, Dack isn't seen as a villain by anyone watching the trailer and as such his death is unequivocally "bad", showing the seriousness of the War.
Personally I see the reversing as Symbolic of Liliana thinking about the path and actions that brought her to that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
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Arguably the only thing I'd consider in the ??? Planeswalker is the hat. That hat may not be there to do anything but hide a face (in a strikingly clumsy way, I'd say) and there should be no need to hide a face we don't know. We got that white blue mage without anything covering her face, why is this other one covered? A provocative question, but I think quite important.
More info about War of the Spark from yesterday's ECCC Mtg panel
Legendary: 1088 / 1208.
Planeswalkers: 182 / 226.
(16/03/2017)
Also, casual and semi-competitive Commander player \m/
Man, AMP is annoying with how it hijacks links
https://www.comicsbeat.com/eccc-19-magic-the-gathering-reveals-spoilers-from-its-avengers-level-war-of-the-spark-story/
Prequels and a Second book
Cool
My feeling toward having so many planeswalkers on the plane is that it's a bit too much. How many are fodder for deaths? Will all of them matter? If not, why bother including them? If so, how do they expect to not have chaos in story design?
Given that the Praetors hated Tezzeret going there would be utterly insane on his part
Him going back with Elesh Norn in charge is a good way to get himself flayed.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
True at the time, but at the time Tezz didn't have the Planar Bridge. I think it was Elesh Norn who said the Gitaxians whispered among themselves about other worlds, and that Phyrexia's perfection must be brought there.
I think it's a safe bet that Tezz may not take over the Phyrexians (at first), but he'd likely be welcome if he could help them conquer other worlds. And by having sole control over the tech, he would likely start to have more and more influence.
When he was first there, he was a spy. He has substantially more value now, and what else is he going to be doing if Bolas gets knocked down? He's always wanted power for himself, from what I recall, and conquering the multiverse at the head of an 'artifact' army would not be outside the realm of possibility.
The Eternals have the benefit of being dead. So while their organic bits may be damaged, the magic animating them and the lazotep remain unaffected by the Blind Eternities. This allows them to be transported with the planar bridge with relative ease.
That said, I think the Phyrexians have a distinct advantage over the eternals when it comes to planar bridge transport:
They don't actually need to move individuals to another plane. We know that glistening oil can survive the blind eternities and can, over time, create new phyrexians to conquer the planes it ends up on.
From there, they need only use the bridge to communicate via a inorganic medium (ex: stone engravings) to coordinate efforts and supplies.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
And do you know how going to NewPhy with something that Valuable ends with?
Elesh Norn : "Oh interesting toy you have there, GITAXAS hack that arm off him and perfect it." Which of course would lead to the plot fairy having to come down, swing her crappy wand and bestow Jin with the exact solution to make it possible for Flesh to go through the portal, just like she did for Tezzeret finding the thing in the first place. Which is a thing that seriously needs to stop happening in every single block.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
WHERE IN THE **** IS UGIN?!
That is all. Thank you. This has been a psa from, the multiverse.
He is exactly there in the stained glass gallery, among the PWs called to Ravnica...
This makes me believe, as some of us have noticed, that they may have seen that some of the card presentations are not going to mesh perfectly with the book, so they're letting us know ahead of time that the book story is the one that matters.
Frankly I'm excited, it really feels like they are trying to tell a story as they do preview season. Plus if done well it could feel like get a story each day with spoilers.
Weisman says that we gonna get some interesting team up, so I could see walkers getting previewed in the groups they are joining up in. So I could see Karn and Ob cards being shown on the same day.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
If only there were some magical way for the Author of the book to be able to make sure those articles didn't contradict the writer of the book.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Anyway I don't like Lili or Gideon and the romance that is suppose to make us care only started on Dominaria and took time away from better characters that hadn't been seen in forever. So yeah this trailer not for me.
Anyway I don't like Lili or Gideon and the romance that is suppose to make us care only started on Dominaria and took time away from better characters that hadn't been seen in forever. So yeah this trailer not for me.
Nor do I think Bolas will actually kill Lili which I would love to be true but not getting hopes up.
From the stream we learn Bolas is casting something called the elder spell that involves harvesting sparks (and he may have been planning to do this before the mending even). The trailer implied the eternals also have the ability to steal sparks for Bolas. Finally as a demoralizing blow, Bolas has the portal to Ravnica open right in the middle of the Chamber of Guildpact.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
At first I wondered what Dack's death has to do Liliana's actions, but after rewatching, I realized that the lack of significance is signficant. Liliana doesn't even watch Dack die. She ignores him. Instead she looks at the kids getting buried, which are coincidentally (or narratively not so) somewhat similar to her and Josu, with the girl trying to protect the boy. She doesn't care about her fellow planeswalkers, she even sics the eternals on Gideon. But the shadows of her past? THAT is the trigger that makes her turn on Bolas.
In the end even in her martyrdom, it's still all about her.
First, we do see Dack die onscreen... as time is moving backwards. Given that Teferi AND Bolas are involved, both of which should be time masters, this may mean that Dack is shown to die, to hit home that yes, indeed, PWs can die, but the time reversal may save his life. (For a comparison, the time reversal done by Ultear in Fairy Tail is a good analogy.)
I think the time flowing backwards at the beginning of the trailer is very significant. My current theory is that if it is, then Bolas was the one who reversed time. He saw that Liliana turns on him because of randos dying (from his perspective; not trying to belittle them from my POV), and turns back time long enough so that she doesn't see it. But she either remembers or is affected anyway. And she again turns on Bolas. Who activates her contract clause and starts to fry her. This clearly wouldn't be his primary choice, as he would lose control of the Dreadhorde if she dies. It is notable that he needed the Scarab God on Amonkhet to control them, so it's been established that he cannot do so on his own, or at least not as well.
Basically, it should be noted that the events are different going forwards and going backwards. Dack is either not killed or not shown in the time going forward, and neither are the normals. (Either they are brother and sister or mother and son. Hard to say which.)
Also, it should be noted that Liliana is shown to still have the Chain Veil. Another detail is that the farther back in time you go, the less you can see her contract lines. Since those may represent Bolas's control, it would mean going forward through time he is having to exert more and more control over her, which makes the lines show up.
As far as Liliana's ultimate fate, there are three main options that I see:
1) She dies. Probability is doubtful due to her popularity, but it certainly could go that way.
2) She manages to kill Bolas with the Dreadhorde before he kills her, and somehow survives. Not my personal top choice, but maybe.
3) Another party (likely PW) intervenes. We know that Gideon can protect others a little from Kaladesh, so maybe he can protect her; he's there, after all. Another possibility is that Teferi traps her in time. It seems clear that Bolas is activating her contract, as she is burning from the contract lines/scars. Since Teferi joined the Gatewatch, I figured a way for Liliana to survive her contract would be for Teferi to time bubble her, because the main benefit of the contract was eternal youth, and that would imply the penalty for breaking the contract would be for her to age rapidly.
I would also point out that if Bolas had this plan going since the Mending--and events on Amonkhet show this to be overwhelmingly likely--this means that he likely brokered the contract with Liliana, the perfect general for his Dreadhorde, immediately after setting up its creation. And that would fit with the history as we know it.
Edit:
Dack is a notable but minor character. So he may be just the redhand they need to show they're serious. OTOH, Dack is also a treasure hunter/thief. He may be the most knowledgeable person about cursed relics--or magical contracts--around. IOW, he may have been able to help Liliana with the Chain Veil, or with getting out of her contract.
I think he's there to set the tone.
I'm not sure why people keep saying that the trailer indicates any sort of time travel shenanigans. To me it is clearly used as a stylistic device. We are supposed to see Liliana's actions first, then her second thoughts and THEN her turning on Bolas. If we first saw her having second thoughts and then watch Dack getting killed and siccing the undead on Gideon and THEN turning on Bolas destroys the pacing of the trailer.
No they are identical. Liliana sics the eternals on Gideon just right after Dack was killed. And the second, forward portion starts when she commands the eternals to attack Gideon. We do a little time skip, rather than repeating the children and Dack dying.
This is not to say that showing Dack dying in the forward portion would be bad. Personally I found that bit a little confusing and hard to read what is actually happening. Showing his death again in the proper order (because really, his scene is multiple elements that only make sense when viewed in the right order), even if shortened would have helped the trailer and maintain a coherency that it quite evidently lacks from these kinda comments. (Not that I'm blaming you. It IS rather confusing.)
I wouldn't read too much into this. They needed to kill a planeswalker in the trailer to show off how (and that) Bolas collects sparks. Dack is the least spoilery planeswalker to die and the least narratively loaded to interact with Liliana. Nissa for example, whose arc is finished, has too much previous business with Liliana. This interpersonal stuff, even if only in the minds of the viewers, would detract from the action/atmosphere. Plus, unlike Vivien, Dack is an established character. He has existed for years and as such his death carries some weight. And, unlike Nahiri, Dack isn't seen as a villain by anyone watching the trailer and as such his death is unequivocally "bad", showing the seriousness of the War.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"