At the question "Where do Phyrexians originally come from?" Maro answered:
"Like the slivers, it's not yet a known world. The one thing we do know is that they've showed up on various worlds, the original Phyrexia, Dominaria, Mirrodin, Elspeth's home world. Pre-Mending, they used planar portals, but now that those have shut down, their ability to move to new planes has been greatly halted. They managed to make it to Mirrodin through an unaware, infected Karn. Like the slivers, there's a decent chance we'll one day visit their home world, or possibly just another world they exist on."
I'm not sure I understand the answer... We know that the home world of the original Phyrexians was Dominaria, they are simply the twisted survivors of the Thran... Or is he speaking of the infamous dragon creator of Phyrexia? I don't remember if when Yawgmoth and Dyfed discovered Phyrexia there was life on it: I'm pretty sure the plane itself had been described as a living being. I seems to remember some lines about some microscopic organism, but I may be disremembering things.
He may be have been under the mistaken impression that Yawgmoth's first servants weren't (ex-)Thran, but that he corrupted beings that were already on Phyrexia after the Dragon-Planeswalker created it.
Now I may be misunderstanding things because I'm not versed in the old ways but Yawgmawth, who was Thran, did not create Phyrexia. He found it. So how could Phyrexians be Dominarians before Yawgmawth? Seems to me that the Phyrexia that Yawgmawth found doesn't necessarily have to be the plane from which they first came. Just one that they conquered.
Feel free to correct me as there is likely a large chunk of the details that are important that I don't have.
Now I may be misunderstanding things because I'm not versed in the old ways but Yawgmawth, who was Thran, did not create Phyrexia. He found it. So how could Phyrexians be Dominarians before Yawgmawth?
So when we say Phyrexians, we mean the compleat - biomechanical beings who serve Yawgmoth or, later, the Praetors of New Phyrexia. That's because there was no such thing as a "native Phyrexian" ever seen "onscreen" in the storyline; when Yawgmoth and Dyfed got there for the first time there were seemingly no living beings and certainly no civilizations. In other words, the first Phyrexians were in fact brought there from Dominaria.
From what we know, an unknown (and allegedly evil, but this is just by implication and inference) humanoid planeswalker who assumed Dragon shape created Phyrexia as an artificial, metallic plane. This person was dead by the time Yawgmoth first laid eyes on Phyrexia, and it's unclear why they created the plane or what they used it for, but they were definitely not ruling over any vast populations.
Now I may be misunderstanding things because I'm not versed in the old ways but Yawgmawth, who was Thran, did not create Phyrexia. He found it. So how could Phyrexians be Dominarians before Yawgmawth?
So when we say Phyrexians, we mean the compleat - biomechanical beings who serve Yawgmoth or, later, the Praetors of New Phyrexia. That's because there was no such thing as a "native Phyrexian" ever seen "onscreen" in the storyline; when Yawgmoth and Dyfed got there for the first time there were seemingly no living beings and certainly no civilizations. In other words, the first Phyrexians were in fact brought there from Dominaria.
From what we know, an unknown (and allegedly evil, but this is just by implication and inference) humanoid planeswalker who assumed Dragon shape created Phyrexia as an artificial, metallic plane. This person was dead by the time Yawgmoth first laid eyes on Phyrexia, and it's unclear why they created the plane or what they used it for, but they were definitely not ruling over any vast populations.
Couldn't that be what Maro is talking about? The race of people before Yawgmoth found Phyrexia. Basically, Yawgmoth popped in on a WotC version of Catalhöyük, decided to call it Phyrexia, and took it over because everyone who lived there either left or died, including the creator.
To put it simply, how do we identify the (possible) race that existed before Phyrexia? The mysterious, evil, creator had some people hanging around them at least?
I got really hot under the collar when I read his response. Phyrexia is my boo, so here are my problems.
As far as I remember: Dyfed brings Yawgmoth to an artificial plane. There are plants and animals that are self-replicating and machines. Dyfed takes him through the spheres, until he's brought to the final sphere. There, they stand atop the rotting dragon corpse of the planeswalker who created the artificial plane (the same way Serra created her realm). Dyfed tells Yawgmoth the planeswalker was originally human but preferred a dragon form.
So, to sum up: this artificial plane had plant and animal life that was, from context, largely benign. The planeswalker simply created his own plane the same way Serra made hers. It was beautiful, in its own way.
Dyfed offers the plane to Yawgmoth, and he names it Phyrexia. He becomes a god of the plane. He brings in sick Thran from Dominaria through a portal so that they can heal far from the powerstones making them sick. He then uses the (until New Phyrexia) non-sentient oil to experiment and transform his Thran patients, creating the first compleat Phyrexians.
At the close of the Thran civil war, the capital city Halycon is destroyed, refugees flood into Phyrexia, and then Phyrexia is sealed away for a millennium until Urza and Mishra reopen the portal.
So we know where Phyrexians come from. They didn't exist before Yawgmoth went to the (then unnamed) artificial plane. He created them out of the Thran.
This feels like super simple Phyrexia 101. So the fact that Maro doesn't know this, and then says what he said to the wider internet audience, drove me absolutely bonkers. How can we trust his answers on other lore-related questions when he doesn't even know this simple, simple fact, which is tied into, what, a dozen or more sets?
And the human/dragon planeswalker was not a Phyrexian. He was dead long before the first Phyrexians. And he didn't come from the unnamed artificial plane because he created it.
This feels like super simple Phyrexia 101. So the fact that Maro doesn't know this, and then says what he said to the wider internet audience, drove me absolutely bonkers. How can we trust his answers on other lore-related questions when he doesn't even know this simple, simple fact, which is tied into, what, a dozen or more sets?
To be fair, the origins of the phyrexians isn't really such a simple, well-known or trivial fact. We just have a different perspective on these things because we're very invested in the storyline. I can guarantee you that the number of players who knows about the origins of the phyrexians is somewhere around 1%.
As for how much we can trust Maro on storyline matters: Not very. He doesn't work on the story (he only works on the very very VERY high level concept of a world or conflict). He is a designer who is active in a set's creation at a point that's way too early to be concered with story and by the time the story gets worked on, he starts the next set (or even the one after).
It's easy to forget for people who never worked on something like a game in a big team that throghout the creation process there will be lots of ideas and concepts being iterated on. Unless you keep a close eye on what is happening (and again it's not Maro's area of work) it's easy to forget what has and has not made it into canon.
So how much can we trust Maro in storyline matters? Not very. Aside from not working on the storyline, he may also be exposed to a variety of different concepts from the story's development process, making it difficult for him to memorize what is and isn't canon.
So how much can we trust Maro in storyline matters? Not very. Aside from not working on the storyline, he may also be exposed to a variety of different concepts from the story's development process, making it difficult for him to memorize what is and isn't canon.
This entire conversation and the comments on Tumblr stemmed from him trying to give information (as best as he knew it) to the person asking. Yes, it was inaccurate but the resulting discussion that came about filled in a few blanks. I am not sure where else the asker looked for the information they asked about, but it is almost likely that they got what they wanted in the end, even with a small misstep at the beginning. If MaRo simply ignored it, none of the current discussion would have happened (at least, not without the asker reaching out somewhere else) so it still seems like it worked out for him to try to answer the question.
SO why Maro Awnsered that question if it wasn't his forte? Better be quiet then tell false information.
Because people keep pestering him about storyline stuff.
I mean, I agree that he shouldn't answer that sort of sutff. (And he actively ignores the bulk of it.) But if you get like 50 messages per day relating to the lore, you may be inclined to answer one or the other if you think you know the answer. Note that he also answered the slivers question.
This feels like super simple Phyrexia 101. So the fact that Maro doesn't know this, and then says what he said to the wider internet audience, drove me absolutely bonkers. How can we trust his answers on other lore-related questions when he doesn't even know this simple, simple fact, which is tied into, what, a dozen or more sets?
To be fair, the origins of the phyrexians isn't really such a simple, well-known or trivial fact. We just have a different perspective on these things because we're very invested in the storyline. I can guarantee you that the number of players who knows about the origins of the phyrexians is somewhere around 1%.
As for how much we can trust Maro on storyline matters: Not very. He doesn't work on the story (he only works on the very very VERY high level concept of a world or conflict). He is a designer who is active in a set's creation at a point that's way too early to be concered with story and by the time the story gets worked on, he starts the next set (or even the one after).
It's easy to forget for people who never worked on something like a game in a big team that throghout the creation process there will be lots of ideas and concepts being iterated on. Unless you keep a close eye on what is happening (and again it's not Maro's area of work) it's easy to forget what has and has not made it into canon.
So how much can we trust Maro in storyline matters? Not very. Aside from not working on the storyline, he may also be exposed to a variety of different concepts from the story's development process, making it difficult for him to memorize what is and isn't canon.
Fair enough when referring to players, but I was (or thought I was, it may not have come across that way) referring to company people like Maro. He's been there from the start. Does he know Urza's origin, or his relationship to Mishra? Does he know about Nicol Bolas? Or Dominaria? Those seem like Magic fundamentals. He wrote an awful lot about Dominaria in the lead up to that set, but he didn't (to my knowledge) say something that was objectively wrong.
It's like hearing a teacher tell students in the USA that we don't know how the USA started. You may not know the specific, nitty gritty details that a history professor or PhD would know, but you would know at the very least that Britain led to the USA. So too did the Thran lead to the Phyrexians.
I understand and accept that players who aren't as invested in story as we are (the majority of players) won't be troubled. I have a hard enough time getting my friends who play to give a damn about the lore. But people who have been in the company since the beginning should have a fundamental understanding of the basic timeline. I'm hoping Jay helps fix this as he assists Wizards.
As someone else commented here, that incorrect response from Maro might have led the questioner to find the right answer eventually, but for a lot, if not most, of the readers, they'll be left with a 'huh, where DID Phyrexians come from . . . where's their original home plane?' impression.
Full disclosure: After New Phyrexia (which I enjoyed, but didn't like how they retconned the oil), I'm worried this statement by Maro may actually represent an angle the company is going to pursue in the future, thus being a humongous retcon. Obviously we won't know til it does or doesn't happen, but this glaring oversight scares me.
Full disclosure: After New Phyrexia (which I enjoyed, but didn't like how they retconned the oil), I'm worried this statement by Maro may actually represent an angle the company is going to pursue in the future, thus being a humongous retcon. Obviously we won't know til it does or doesn't happen, but this glaring oversight scares me.
I really hope that it is not the case! The revelation that Phyrexian were simply ancient Dominarians was a big plot point in Urza's Saga, and was supposed to be a huge plot twist.
Full disclosure: After New Phyrexia (which I enjoyed, but didn't like how they retconned the oil), I'm worried this statement by Maro may actually represent an angle the company is going to pursue in the future, thus being a humongous retcon. Obviously we won't know til it does or doesn't happen, but this glaring oversight scares me.
I really hope that it is not the case! The revelation that Phyrexian were simply ancient Dominarians was a big plot point in Urza's Saga, and was supposed to be a huge plot twist.
And I don't think it is or ever will be the case. I see no benefit to this retcon whatsoever, especially with the consistent message that while we might encounter successor Phyrexians (the ones from Mirrodin and others), the original Phyrexia is completely gone.
It’s not like this is the first time he’s been wrong about the story. Remember when we learned that, originally, the intent of the Implicit Maze was to rearrange the multiverse so that Ravnica was at the center? Yeah that was Rosewater mixing up what did and didn’t make it into the actual story. The guy has a ton on his plate and he is the most active, vocal member of the design team. I haven’t looked in a while but last I was active in that area you’d be lucky to get an answer about something from Doug once a week.
Yeah, that's how I remember it too. It's a bit weird, since pre-Mending artificial planes at least could collapse if no will was sustaining them for too long, but Magic has been like a comic book for a long time, including the "early phase where nothing makes sense once we know the rules of this universe".
What I can't explain is when he says things that are mechanically wrong and contradicted by fairly recent cards, e.g. green card draw isn't necessarily "tied to creatures" as much as it's "tied to green things", which does include creatures. (Harmonize is still a break, to be fair.) That bugs me in a "You had ONE job!" way.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
He then uses the (until New Phyrexia) non-sentient oil...
My understanding of the Oil is that it is not sentient, that it is not intelligent in any way, rather that it encodes information and replicates what it has encoded. So the original Oil knew how to make metallic plants and animals. When Yawgmoth introduced the Thran refugees and his medical experiments to it, it acted out creating metallic life on them, but also then encoded how to merge organic and metallic life. Yawgmoth was a directing intelligence, he created things, the Oil just remembered and reproduced those things. So the Oil doesn't act with intent, but it imparts it its creations the biases of what it has learned, and much of what it has learned came from the blatantly evil Yawgmoth.
And that's why the New Phyrexians are both similar in many ways, but very different in many ways, from the original Phyrexians. The New are getting impressions of Yawgmoth's biases from it, but none of his intent. Also, much of the encoded information was doubtlessly lost with the destruction of Phyrexia, only that which Karn carried with him was saved, and the Oil is now filling in the blanks with what it found on Mirrodin, and now from what the actually sentient New Phyrexians create. Planar Portal tech was lost for example, but the Porcelain is new.
What really intrigues me in the current era is Rona. She is rediscovering and refurbishing old Phyrexian tech, and is effectively compleating herself in the absence of the Oil. I suppose her moniker could imply actual contact with Gix (I think he's only presumed dead?), but I feel that she's just come across his name in her research. Either way, she represents a continuation of the old Phyrexians on a separate branch from the New Phyrexians.
I hope to see more of her and her story in the future, I really hope she's not just a throw-away reference from the nostalgia set.
He then uses the (until New Phyrexia) non-sentient oil...
My understanding of the Oil is that it is not sentient, that it is not intelligent in any way, rather that it encodes information and replicates what it has encoded. So the original Oil knew how to make metallic plants and animals. When Yawgmoth introduced the Thran refugees and his medical experiments to it, it acted out creating metallic life on them, but also then encoded how to merge organic and metallic life. Yawgmoth was a directing intelligence, he created things, the Oil just remembered and reproduced those things. So the Oil doesn't act with intent, but it imparts it its creations the biases of what it has learned, and much of what it has learned came from the blatantly evil Yawgmoth.
And that's why the New Phyrexians are both similar in many ways, but very different in many ways, from the original Phyrexians. The New are getting impressions of Yawgmoth's biases from it, but none of his intent. Also, much of the encoded information was doubtlessly lost with the destruction of Phyrexia, only that which Karn carried with him was saved, and the Oil is now filling in the blanks with what it found on Mirrodin, and now from what the actually sentient New Phyrexians create. Planar Portal tech was lost for example, but the Porcelain is new.
So my recollection (I don't have the book in front of me right now) is that the oil came from one of the spheres of Phyrexia, where it was a sea of just oil. What did the dead planeswalker use it for? Who knows. When Yawgmoth dunked Thran humans into the oil, it made their muscles bigger, nails longer, biological changes. The oil then served to 'grease' the skids of keeping humans alive during experiments, and assisted in the creation of horrible things. It was like the WD-40 of a Victor Frankenstein on steroids.
The machine part began to factor in because after the portal sealed Dominaria away from Phyrexia, they had no new flesh to use to make new Phyrexians. Thus machinery and recycled flesh were the foundation of the ultimate (old) Phyrexians Urza faced down.
My beef with the New Phyrexian oil is that, whether or not it's sentient, it doesn't make sense for it to have schematics or whatever else one might characterize the information we were told the oil contained. Setting aside my other beef with leaky Karn, his Phyrexian heart came from Xantcha, who was a lowly Phyrexian newt/humanoid. We are to believe that an artifact, taken by Urza and placed in Karn, had some mere residue of oil (did Urza just not care if the heart was 'dirty'?), such that Karn would leak it on Mirrodin, and those miniscule droplets had an extensive, if not comprehensive, library of self-executing programs and blueprints for zombified machinery, which could be triggered by encountering metal? When previously it had only been used as an assistance to manipulating flesh? And the Phyrexian praetors of old Phyrexia made sure that this information was contained in the smallest, atomic level of the oil, such that even their rejects had the possibility of leaking oil on a plane and creating a rival Phyrexia?
Anyway. Rant over. I'm a big fan of New Phyrexia, especially the way they split the colors and made a Phyrexia that makes sense for each piece of the color pie. If I *must* live with the sentient/triggered glistening oil, and I must, then I like your points about Yawgmoth's biases without the intent, or rather that the ghost is there but the body is long forgotten.
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"Like the slivers, it's not yet a known world. The one thing we do know is that they've showed up on various worlds, the original Phyrexia, Dominaria, Mirrodin, Elspeth's home world. Pre-Mending, they used planar portals, but now that those have shut down, their ability to move to new planes has been greatly halted. They managed to make it to Mirrodin through an unaware, infected Karn. Like the slivers, there's a decent chance we'll one day visit their home world, or possibly just another world they exist on."
I'm not sure I understand the answer... We know that the home world of the original Phyrexians was Dominaria, they are simply the twisted survivors of the Thran... Or is he speaking of the infamous dragon creator of Phyrexia? I don't remember if when Yawgmoth and Dyfed discovered Phyrexia there was life on it: I'm pretty sure the plane itself had been described as a living being. I seems to remember some lines about some microscopic organism, but I may be disremembering things.
Can someone help me shed light on this? Thanks
Oh OK, I thought I have missed something of late.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Feel free to correct me as there is likely a large chunk of the details that are important that I don't have.
From what we know, an unknown (and allegedly evil, but this is just by implication and inference) humanoid planeswalker who assumed Dragon shape created Phyrexia as an artificial, metallic plane. This person was dead by the time Yawgmoth first laid eyes on Phyrexia, and it's unclear why they created the plane or what they used it for, but they were definitely not ruling over any vast populations.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Couldn't that be what Maro is talking about? The race of people before Yawgmoth found Phyrexia. Basically, Yawgmoth popped in on a WotC version of Catalhöyük, decided to call it Phyrexia, and took it over because everyone who lived there either left or died, including the creator.
To put it simply, how do we identify the (possible) race that existed before Phyrexia? The mysterious, evil, creator had some people hanging around them at least?
As far as I remember: Dyfed brings Yawgmoth to an artificial plane. There are plants and animals that are self-replicating and machines. Dyfed takes him through the spheres, until he's brought to the final sphere. There, they stand atop the rotting dragon corpse of the planeswalker who created the artificial plane (the same way Serra created her realm). Dyfed tells Yawgmoth the planeswalker was originally human but preferred a dragon form.
So, to sum up: this artificial plane had plant and animal life that was, from context, largely benign. The planeswalker simply created his own plane the same way Serra made hers. It was beautiful, in its own way.
Dyfed offers the plane to Yawgmoth, and he names it Phyrexia. He becomes a god of the plane. He brings in sick Thran from Dominaria through a portal so that they can heal far from the powerstones making them sick. He then uses the (until New Phyrexia) non-sentient oil to experiment and transform his Thran patients, creating the first compleat Phyrexians.
At the close of the Thran civil war, the capital city Halycon is destroyed, refugees flood into Phyrexia, and then Phyrexia is sealed away for a millennium until Urza and Mishra reopen the portal.
So we know where Phyrexians come from. They didn't exist before Yawgmoth went to the (then unnamed) artificial plane. He created them out of the Thran.
This feels like super simple Phyrexia 101. So the fact that Maro doesn't know this, and then says what he said to the wider internet audience, drove me absolutely bonkers. How can we trust his answers on other lore-related questions when he doesn't even know this simple, simple fact, which is tied into, what, a dozen or more sets?
And the human/dragon planeswalker was not a Phyrexian. He was dead long before the first Phyrexians. And he didn't come from the unnamed artificial plane because he created it.
Sorry, stuff like this really gets to me.
To be fair, the origins of the phyrexians isn't really such a simple, well-known or trivial fact. We just have a different perspective on these things because we're very invested in the storyline. I can guarantee you that the number of players who knows about the origins of the phyrexians is somewhere around 1%.
As for how much we can trust Maro on storyline matters: Not very. He doesn't work on the story (he only works on the very very VERY high level concept of a world or conflict). He is a designer who is active in a set's creation at a point that's way too early to be concered with story and by the time the story gets worked on, he starts the next set (or even the one after).
It's easy to forget for people who never worked on something like a game in a big team that throghout the creation process there will be lots of ideas and concepts being iterated on. Unless you keep a close eye on what is happening (and again it's not Maro's area of work) it's easy to forget what has and has not made it into canon.
So how much can we trust Maro in storyline matters? Not very. Aside from not working on the storyline, he may also be exposed to a variety of different concepts from the story's development process, making it difficult for him to memorize what is and isn't canon.
It's also distinctly not his job.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Because people keep pestering him about storyline stuff.
I mean, I agree that he shouldn't answer that sort of sutff. (And he actively ignores the bulk of it.) But if you get like 50 messages per day relating to the lore, you may be inclined to answer one or the other if you think you know the answer. Note that he also answered the slivers question.
Fair enough when referring to players, but I was (or thought I was, it may not have come across that way) referring to company people like Maro. He's been there from the start. Does he know Urza's origin, or his relationship to Mishra? Does he know about Nicol Bolas? Or Dominaria? Those seem like Magic fundamentals. He wrote an awful lot about Dominaria in the lead up to that set, but he didn't (to my knowledge) say something that was objectively wrong.
It's like hearing a teacher tell students in the USA that we don't know how the USA started. You may not know the specific, nitty gritty details that a history professor or PhD would know, but you would know at the very least that Britain led to the USA. So too did the Thran lead to the Phyrexians.
I understand and accept that players who aren't as invested in story as we are (the majority of players) won't be troubled. I have a hard enough time getting my friends who play to give a damn about the lore. But people who have been in the company since the beginning should have a fundamental understanding of the basic timeline. I'm hoping Jay helps fix this as he assists Wizards.
As someone else commented here, that incorrect response from Maro might have led the questioner to find the right answer eventually, but for a lot, if not most, of the readers, they'll be left with a 'huh, where DID Phyrexians come from . . . where's their original home plane?' impression.
Full disclosure: After New Phyrexia (which I enjoyed, but didn't like how they retconned the oil), I'm worried this statement by Maro may actually represent an angle the company is going to pursue in the future, thus being a humongous retcon. Obviously we won't know til it does or doesn't happen, but this glaring oversight scares me.
I really hope that it is not the case! The revelation that Phyrexian were simply ancient Dominarians was a big plot point in Urza's Saga, and was supposed to be a huge plot twist.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Honestly that’s what places like this are for.
You'd think the guy who created a card bearing the name of the Ineffable would know his backstory.
What I can't explain is when he says things that are mechanically wrong and contradicted by fairly recent cards, e.g. green card draw isn't necessarily "tied to creatures" as much as it's "tied to green things", which does include creatures. (Harmonize is still a break, to be fair.) That bugs me in a "You had ONE job!" way.
On phasing:
My understanding of the Oil is that it is not sentient, that it is not intelligent in any way, rather that it encodes information and replicates what it has encoded. So the original Oil knew how to make metallic plants and animals. When Yawgmoth introduced the Thran refugees and his medical experiments to it, it acted out creating metallic life on them, but also then encoded how to merge organic and metallic life. Yawgmoth was a directing intelligence, he created things, the Oil just remembered and reproduced those things. So the Oil doesn't act with intent, but it imparts it its creations the biases of what it has learned, and much of what it has learned came from the blatantly evil Yawgmoth.
And that's why the New Phyrexians are both similar in many ways, but very different in many ways, from the original Phyrexians. The New are getting impressions of Yawgmoth's biases from it, but none of his intent. Also, much of the encoded information was doubtlessly lost with the destruction of Phyrexia, only that which Karn carried with him was saved, and the Oil is now filling in the blanks with what it found on Mirrodin, and now from what the actually sentient New Phyrexians create. Planar Portal tech was lost for example, but the Porcelain is new.
What really intrigues me in the current era is Rona. She is rediscovering and refurbishing old Phyrexian tech, and is effectively compleating herself in the absence of the Oil. I suppose her moniker could imply actual contact with Gix (I think he's only presumed dead?), but I feel that she's just come across his name in her research. Either way, she represents a continuation of the old Phyrexians on a separate branch from the New Phyrexians.
I hope to see more of her and her story in the future, I really hope she's not just a throw-away reference from the nostalgia set.
So my recollection (I don't have the book in front of me right now) is that the oil came from one of the spheres of Phyrexia, where it was a sea of just oil. What did the dead planeswalker use it for? Who knows. When Yawgmoth dunked Thran humans into the oil, it made their muscles bigger, nails longer, biological changes. The oil then served to 'grease' the skids of keeping humans alive during experiments, and assisted in the creation of horrible things. It was like the WD-40 of a Victor Frankenstein on steroids.
The machine part began to factor in because after the portal sealed Dominaria away from Phyrexia, they had no new flesh to use to make new Phyrexians. Thus machinery and recycled flesh were the foundation of the ultimate (old) Phyrexians Urza faced down.
My beef with the New Phyrexian oil is that, whether or not it's sentient, it doesn't make sense for it to have schematics or whatever else one might characterize the information we were told the oil contained. Setting aside my other beef with leaky Karn, his Phyrexian heart came from Xantcha, who was a lowly Phyrexian newt/humanoid. We are to believe that an artifact, taken by Urza and placed in Karn, had some mere residue of oil (did Urza just not care if the heart was 'dirty'?), such that Karn would leak it on Mirrodin, and those miniscule droplets had an extensive, if not comprehensive, library of self-executing programs and blueprints for zombified machinery, which could be triggered by encountering metal? When previously it had only been used as an assistance to manipulating flesh? And the Phyrexian praetors of old Phyrexia made sure that this information was contained in the smallest, atomic level of the oil, such that even their rejects had the possibility of leaking oil on a plane and creating a rival Phyrexia?
Anyway. Rant over. I'm a big fan of New Phyrexia, especially the way they split the colors and made a Phyrexia that makes sense for each piece of the color pie. If I *must* live with the sentient/triggered glistening oil, and I must, then I like your points about Yawgmoth's biases without the intent, or rather that the ghost is there but the body is long forgotten.