Welp, considering now there's like three people in the Multiverse who DON'T hate Liliana, I think the Mary Sue argument can be put to bed.
Oh, no! I wonder what the consequences of that are going to be? /s
Liliana will say that she is sorry, she will do something to make those characters believe her and we will all move on.
You just went and glossed over what I also said at the end my post:
Quote from Thief »
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody is interested in whether you're personally invested in her or not, we're discussing her Sueness. And you jumping to that just seems defensive to me. We're supposed to discuss the sueness and you didn't even do the litmus test right. I assume btw that you're using this test, in which case Onering has the better grasp of the situation. It's also telling that you didn't engage with anything he said and instead posted an unrelated comic.
If you care about the OSP video, you should at least have noticed its core point. The common link between Mary Sue archetypes is that the world revolves around them, in service to whatever their traits are, for the reader to live out a power fantasy. Magic: the Gathering does not revolve around Liliana this way, she has just been a prominent main character recently, which is standard faire in writing. Her capabilities and edgy traits are also near mundane in the Magic universe, meaning she's not the centre of the brand at all.
Don't conflate Mary Sues with main characters. Sueness has to do with a whole world being used to serve a character fantasy. Main characters are just the writing's primary object of interest. The two things are different.
You just went and glossed over what I also said at the end my post:
Quote from Thief »
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody is interested in whether you're personally invested in her or not, we're discussing her Sueness. And you jumping to that just seems defensive to me. We're supposed to discuss the sueness and you didn't even do the litmus test right. I assume btw that you're using this test, in which case Onering has the better grasp of the situation. It's also telling that you didn't engage with anything he said and instead posted an unrelated comic.
If you care about the OSP video, you should at least have noticed its core point. The common link between Mary Sue archetypes is that the world revolves around them, in service to whatever their traits are, for the reader to live out a power fantasy. Magic: the Gathering does not revolve around Liliana this way, she has just been a prominent main character recently, which is standard faire in writing. Her capabilities and edgy traits are also near mundane in the Magic universe, meaning she's not the centre of the brand at all.
Don't conflate Mary Sues with main characters. Sueness has to do with a whole world being used to serve a character fantasy. Main characters are just the writing's primary object of interest. The two things are different.
You mean that Amonketh, Dominaria and WAR didn't revolve around Liliana?
People anymore through around Mary Sue and Dues ex machina without ever learning what they mean.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
You just went and glossed over what I also said at the end my post:
Quote from Thief »
Look I'm still going to enjoy her character even if she is a Sue because I'm not going to let that taint what I view of her. Its kind of like the people who get flustered about her being considered a villain, which she clearly is, but associate that as a negative connotation instead of rolling with it and enjoying the character that way. Nahiri is similar to Liliana in being a villain but can still have fans because they are an interesting character.
This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody is interested in whether you're personally invested in her or not, we're discussing her Sueness. And you jumping to that just seems defensive to me. We're supposed to discuss the sueness and you didn't even do the litmus test right. I assume btw that you're using this test, in which case Onering has the better grasp of the situation. It's also telling that you didn't engage with anything he said and instead posted an unrelated comic.
If you care about the OSP video, you should at least have noticed its core point. The common link between Mary Sue archetypes is that the world revolves around them, in service to whatever their traits are, for the reader to live out a power fantasy. Magic: the Gathering does not revolve around Liliana this way, she has just been a prominent main character recently, which is standard faire in writing. Her capabilities and edgy traits are also near mundane in the Magic universe, meaning she's not the centre of the brand at all.
Don't conflate Mary Sues with main characters. Sueness has to do with a whole world being used to serve a character fantasy. Main characters are just the writing's primary object of interest. The two things are different.
You mean that Amonketh, Dominaria and WAR didn't revolve around Liliana?
No, not really. She's an important figure in them but I don't feel they revolved around her. Even if those sets did revolve around her though that doesn't mean Magic the Gathering as a whole does.
Liliana isn't a Mary Sue because she isn't a self insert, and the world most certainly doesn't fall at her feet. How many characters in universe actually see her as a perfect person without any flaw? If you actually use the original definition (which was a fan written character in Star Trek who everybody loved, did absolutely nothing wrong, and solved problems that other main characters were utterly unable to solve (despite it being the usual standard fare)), then you would realize that she just doesn't fit the criteria.
In professionally written fiction, the closest you'd get to being a Mary Sue would probably be the classic James Bond (the one without PTSD).
I would say that if anything, Gideon was closer to being a Mary Sue considering he ticks many of the boxes. Tragic past, liked by everyone, charismatic leader, invincible in battle (more or less), exceptionally handsome naturally (by most people's standard). Even the noble sacrifice trope is often part of a Sue's character in fan-fiction.
Oh, no! I wonder what the consequences of that are going to be? /s
Liliana will say that she is sorry, she will do something to make those characters believe her and we will all move on.
This has nothing to do with anything. Nobody is interested in whether you're personally invested in her or not, we're discussing her Sueness. And you jumping to that just seems defensive to me. We're supposed to discuss the sueness and you didn't even do the litmus test right. I assume btw that you're using this test, in which case Onering has the better grasp of the situation. It's also telling that you didn't engage with anything he said and instead posted an unrelated comic.
If you care about the OSP video, you should at least have noticed its core point. The common link between Mary Sue archetypes is that the world revolves around them, in service to whatever their traits are, for the reader to live out a power fantasy. Magic: the Gathering does not revolve around Liliana this way, she has just been a prominent main character recently, which is standard faire in writing. Her capabilities and edgy traits are also near mundane in the Magic universe, meaning she's not the centre of the brand at all.
Don't conflate Mary Sues with main characters. Sueness has to do with a whole world being used to serve a character fantasy. Main characters are just the writing's primary object of interest. The two things are different.
You mean that Amonketh, Dominaria and WAR didn't revolve around Liliana?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
No, not really. She's an important figure in them but I don't feel they revolved around her. Even if those sets did revolve around her though that doesn't mean Magic the Gathering as a whole does.
In professionally written fiction, the closest you'd get to being a Mary Sue would probably be the classic James Bond (the one without PTSD).
I would say that if anything, Gideon was closer to being a Mary Sue considering he ticks many of the boxes. Tragic past, liked by everyone, charismatic leader, invincible in battle (more or less), exceptionally handsome naturally (by most people's standard). Even the noble sacrifice trope is often part of a Sue's character in fan-fiction.