Unlike Bolas whom we learn from books and cards that he’s near godly even after the Mending, Urza had always been a schemer and artificer who achieved great deeds with preparation and inventions, with impressive amount of amorality. There’s less demonstration on how strong he actually is in terms of raw strength.
Then of course, every PW was like a god so maybe that’s why his personal power didn’t stand out too much, or perhaps his ability to plan and betray overshadowed everything else. I find his mentality a lot more awe-inspiring than whatever combat prowess he demonstrated.
Urza was on the high end of power level for old walkers. This was in part due to his lack of a sense of his own humanity. Because he was fairly unhinged he wasn't constrained by how strong he thought he was also was fairly immoral by most peoples standards, though as far as he was concerned he was very moral because he held himself against the phyrexians.
the dude almost died to a phyrxian negator.
phyrexia itself made him so sick he almost died.
gix almost killed him.
he had his eyes torn out by radiant.
yawgmoth was able to corrupt him.
he wasn't anywhere near as strong as people make him out to be. that's those pesky rose-tinted glasses. he was a storyline emphasis for like a decade and that pushes him into nostalgic godhood. reread the novels sometime, he's fallible, thats his schtick even.
he was however; intelligent, immoral, and more than anything else able to rely on his inventions. those aspects of his character, combined with his tendency to plan long term gave him an advantage over every other walker out there. not necessarily his magical prowess.
He is not the strongest in direct combat...he is a comic book type prep god though. Where if he has time to prep and manipulate he can get a whole lot done.
Urza was around long enough to fall into traps (to add to AutumnTwilight, he also got trapped in a Yavimayan tree and got pummeled by hawk engines sent by K'rrick); he could reform and become immaterial and carry others through the Blind Eternities and a slew of other things. He fell into traps, but was powerful. Taysir, arguably, was the other most powerful Planeswalker, but he was never fully explored in post-revisionist material, and even Taysir fell to others (like having his head split open). However, these Planeswalkers had great powers that went beyond post-Mending Planeswalkers. They were not omnipotent like "gods," but their power level was pretty hard to match.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
But yeah most of fan base thinks he is a super powerful combat god which he wasn't. But that doesn't mean he was not powerful and extremely dangerous. Makes sense he is a Prep God though since he is primarily an Artificer and secondarily a Wizard. Artifice leans more to prepping compared to most mages besides I guess Necromancers.
Urza is basically the Batman of the MTG franchise, with the same caveats, story templating, moral ambiquity and everything else that people adore about DC's 'Dark Knight'.
Urza is basically the Batman of the MTG franchise, with the same caveats, story templating, moral ambiquity and everything else that people adore about DC's 'Dark Knight'.
Fin.
Urza has magical powers in addition to his wits and machinery. Also he created an entire race, lived for centuries, and would have no issue killing the Joker.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Urza is basically the Batman of the MTG franchise, with the same caveats, story templating, moral ambiquity and everything else that people adore about DC's 'Dark Knight'.
Fin.
Urza has magical powers in addition to his wits and machinery. Also he created an entire race, lived for centuries, and would have no issue killing the Joker.
Urza's line wasn't killing he had no problem killing. His line was the fusion of flesh and machine. Like batman wouldn't kill no matter how much easier it would be Urza wouldn't fuse flesh and machines regardless of how much stronger it could make his creations.
It's about having the line and not crossing it rather than where that line is.
Regardless of Urza's actual power, WotC seems to enjoy going along with the fans on him being the super saiyan of this universe.
Now that we have a pre-Mending card, Urza, Lord High Artificer, which matches Urza's ingenious with artifice (Golem, Academy, Temporal Aperture). I kinda theorize that every PW's pre-spark potential is what becomes their core power after the spark, such as Jace with telepathy, Nissa with attunement with nature, etc. Even if Urza got other power after his ascension, his core is still likely his artifice, and the spark magnifies his ability to design and create.
In other words, were Bolas the one who arrived on Phyrexia, Yawgmoth might've not being able to suppress his power so easily?
As others have said, Urza wasn't the most powerful oldwalker, he was just the best planner, tactician, and strategist. Given sufficient time and resources, he could find a way to defeat just about anyone. He was also a creative and brilliant mad science wizard who was constantly experimenting and coming up with new spells and new works of magical artifice. But in a straight up fight where he was caught off guard, he would be no match for a truly godlike oldwalker like Bolas.
Don't get me wrong, he was definitely a high-tier oldwalker. He also had one major advantage over other oldwalkers: He was a totally unique entity by virtue of the fact that his soul/spark was stored in the Mightstone and the Weakstone. He wasn't really human after his ascension, he had become something more like a powerstone lich. This made him uniquely hard to kill - he could survive as a severed head! - and it also provided him with a nearly limitless mana source that he always had access to. Still, in terms of raw power, I see him as being at the lower end of the upper tier. I think most other high-tier oldwalkers like Serra, Windgrace, Tevesh Szat, and Sorin could've overpowered him.
And for what it's worth, I consider Bolas and Ugin to be the most powerful entities in the MtG multiverse, with the possible exception of cosmic entities like the Eldrazi and Marit Lage. It's speculative, but the impression I get is that Bolas and Ugin have always been leagues and bounds above other planeswalkers. They literally broke the fabric of reality in their first battle, and that was before either of them had reached the apex of their power. Teferi and Leshrac were among the most powerful oldwalkers, and Bolas was able to defeat them almost effortlessly, to the point where he was able to toy with Leshrac and let him win for a while before instantly turning the tables on him. Among oldwalkers who weren't elder dragons, I think Taysir was the most powerful, since he had five sparks. (It was also outright stated in the old lore that he was the most powerful planeswalker in existence, although neither the characters nor the writers were aware of Bolas or Ugin's existence at the time.) As far as power levels go, Urza was far below those three.
I can't believe nobody in this thread mentioned Rick Sanchez yet.
Because aside from being amoral scientists they have little in common.
That is quite unfair. Urza had morals. They were rather strange, but he always believed what he did was moraly right even when he thought it was a little wrong. He even occasionally felt bad about some of the stuff that he did or let happen. Other than the vaguest of connections by both being scientists they have no similarities.
Urza is canonically the most powerful oldwalker. Taysir is arguably the second most powerful (it took three oldwalkers to put him down the first time, and Urza the second), followed by Bolas and Ugin respectively, due to their age and power as elder dragons.
That is, among oldwalkers we know of. There was a time I argued for Taysir being the strongest, but I got shut down on that.
I can't believe nobody in this thread mentioned Rick Sanchez yet.
Because aside from being amoral scientists they have little in common.
That is quite unfair. Urza had morals. They were rather strange, but he always believed what he did was moraly right even when he thought it was a little wrong. He even occasionally felt bad about some of the stuff that he did or let happen. Other than the vaguest of connections by both being scientists they have no similarities.
I wouldn't call the ***** Urza did for the actions of a moral person. He got into a spat with his brother that ended with him nuking a continent, and setting of the Ice Age. He performed timetravel experiments on Tolaria despite being told not to because it was extremely dangerous, and when it blew up in his face as expected, killing dozens of students and allowing phyrexia to get a foothold there, he fled rather than clean up his mess. He performed unethical genetic experiments on unwitting subjects. And he deliberately recruited Tevesh Szat to the titans, knowing fully that the Doom of Fools would turn on them and murder one of them, just so he could have an excuse to kill Tevesh Szat to power up a bomb. And when called out on this by Taysir after said murders, he murdered Taysir in cold blood. Then, finally, to really kick the puppy, he joined Phyrexia in the end. And that is not even a complete list of the amoral things he has done.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Urza is canonically the most powerful oldwalker. Taysir is arguably the second most powerful (it took three oldwalkers to put him down the first time, and Urza the second), followed by Bolas and Ugin respectively, due to their age and power as elder dragons.
That is, among oldwalkers we know of. There was a time I argued for Taysir being the strongest, but I got shut down on that.
I can't believe nobody in this thread mentioned Rick Sanchez yet.
Because aside from being amoral scientists they have little in common.
That is quite unfair. Urza had morals. They were rather strange, but he always believed what he did was moraly right even when he thought it was a little wrong. He even occasionally felt bad about some of the stuff that he did or let happen. Other than the vaguest of connections by both being scientists they have no similarities.
I wouldn't call the ***** Urza did for the actions of a moral person. He got into a spat with his brother that ended with him nuking a continent, and setting of the Ice Age. He performed timetravel experiments on Tolaria despite being told not to because it was extremely dangerous, and when it blew up in his face as expected, killing dozens of students and allowing phyrexia to get a foothold there, he fled rather than clean up his mess. He performed unethical genetic experiments on unwitting subjects. And he deliberately recruited Tevesh Szat to the titans, knowing fully that the Doom of Fools would turn on them and murder one of them, just so he could have an excuse to kill Tevesh Szat to power up a bomb. And when called out on this by Taysir after said murders, he murdered Taysir in cold blood. Then, finally, to really kick the puppy, he joined Phyrexia in the end. And that is not even a complete list of the amoral things he has done.
Amoral doesn't mean "***** I don't agree with". Urza was constantly working towards what he thought was the greater good. You even point out one of his greatest moral dilemmas. He couldn't simply kill tevesh to power his bombs even if most people would be fine killing s psycopath like him, but Urza believed he needed a reason to kill him so he set up the stage to get his reason. The bad stuff at the end was due to phyrexian corruption, but even then it didn't remove his morality it changed his perception such that he believed Phyrexia was the greater good so killing to protect it was fine. At no point did Urza think "I'll do this horrible thing because why not" it was always "I'll do this horrible thing because Phyrexia is many times worse and this horrible thing is nessecary to stop phyrexia, maybe" when you compare it to Vantablack normal black looks gray.
He is not the strongest in direct combat...he is a comic book type prep god though. Where if he has time to prep and manipulate he can get a whole lot done.
I think Urza with prep is equivalent to Dr.Doom with prep. He is very intelligent, and can overcome opponents stronger than him if given the opportunity to plan ahead of time.
Then of course, every PW was like a god so maybe that’s why his personal power didn’t stand out too much, or perhaps his ability to plan and betray overshadowed everything else. I find his mentality a lot more awe-inspiring than whatever combat prowess he demonstrated.
Had he been “overhyped”?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
However he did almost got beat/killed by gix if it weren’t for xatcha sacrificing herself
phyrexia itself made him so sick he almost died.
gix almost killed him.
he had his eyes torn out by radiant.
yawgmoth was able to corrupt him.
he wasn't anywhere near as strong as people make him out to be. that's those pesky rose-tinted glasses. he was a storyline emphasis for like a decade and that pushes him into nostalgic godhood. reread the novels sometime, he's fallible, thats his schtick even.
he was however; intelligent, immoral, and more than anything else able to rely on his inventions. those aspects of his character, combined with his tendency to plan long term gave him an advantage over every other walker out there. not necessarily his magical prowess.
Urza is basically the Batman of the MTG franchise, with the same caveats, story templating, moral ambiquity and everything else that people adore about DC's 'Dark Knight'.
Fin.
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
Urza has magical powers in addition to his wits and machinery. Also he created an entire race, lived for centuries, and would have no issue killing the Joker.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
It's about having the line and not crossing it rather than where that line is.
Now that we have a pre-Mending card, Urza, Lord High Artificer, which matches Urza's ingenious with artifice (Golem, Academy, Temporal Aperture). I kinda theorize that every PW's pre-spark potential is what becomes their core power after the spark, such as Jace with telepathy, Nissa with attunement with nature, etc. Even if Urza got other power after his ascension, his core is still likely his artifice, and the spark magnifies his ability to design and create.
In other words, were Bolas the one who arrived on Phyrexia, Yawgmoth might've not being able to suppress his power so easily?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Don't get me wrong, he was definitely a high-tier oldwalker. He also had one major advantage over other oldwalkers: He was a totally unique entity by virtue of the fact that his soul/spark was stored in the Mightstone and the Weakstone. He wasn't really human after his ascension, he had become something more like a powerstone lich. This made him uniquely hard to kill - he could survive as a severed head! - and it also provided him with a nearly limitless mana source that he always had access to. Still, in terms of raw power, I see him as being at the lower end of the upper tier. I think most other high-tier oldwalkers like Serra, Windgrace, Tevesh Szat, and Sorin could've overpowered him.
And for what it's worth, I consider Bolas and Ugin to be the most powerful entities in the MtG multiverse, with the possible exception of cosmic entities like the Eldrazi and Marit Lage. It's speculative, but the impression I get is that Bolas and Ugin have always been leagues and bounds above other planeswalkers. They literally broke the fabric of reality in their first battle, and that was before either of them had reached the apex of their power. Teferi and Leshrac were among the most powerful oldwalkers, and Bolas was able to defeat them almost effortlessly, to the point where he was able to toy with Leshrac and let him win for a while before instantly turning the tables on him. Among oldwalkers who weren't elder dragons, I think Taysir was the most powerful, since he had five sparks. (It was also outright stated in the old lore that he was the most powerful planeswalker in existence, although neither the characters nor the writers were aware of Bolas or Ugin's existence at the time.) As far as power levels go, Urza was far below those three.
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Feather, the Redeemed
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave
Tatyova, Benthic Druid
Rowan Kenrith&Will Kenrith
Because aside from being amoral scientists they have little in common.
That is, among oldwalkers we know of. There was a time I argued for Taysir being the strongest, but I got shut down on that.
I wouldn't call the ***** Urza did for the actions of a moral person. He got into a spat with his brother that ended with him nuking a continent, and setting of the Ice Age. He performed timetravel experiments on Tolaria despite being told not to because it was extremely dangerous, and when it blew up in his face as expected, killing dozens of students and allowing phyrexia to get a foothold there, he fled rather than clean up his mess. He performed unethical genetic experiments on unwitting subjects. And he deliberately recruited Tevesh Szat to the titans, knowing fully that the Doom of Fools would turn on them and murder one of them, just so he could have an excuse to kill Tevesh Szat to power up a bomb. And when called out on this by Taysir after said murders, he murdered Taysir in cold blood. Then, finally, to really kick the puppy, he joined Phyrexia in the end. And that is not even a complete list of the amoral things he has done.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I think Urza with prep is equivalent to Dr.Doom with prep. He is very intelligent, and can overcome opponents stronger than him if given the opportunity to plan ahead of time.
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