Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
When was that retconed?
Not sure if a retcon, but it might be similiar to when Wizards just does it for shock value. Like when one of the first story articles for Scars of Mirrodin was literally killing off Glissa and Squee Slobad, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.
EDIT: (Whoops my bad, meant Slobad, brain went to Squee as usually people talk about dying, also Slobad didn't deserve to die, but that is neither here nor their)
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
When was that retconed?
Not sure if a retcon, but it might be similiar to when Wizards just does it for shock value. Like when one of the first story articles for Scars of Mirrodin was literally killing off Glissa and Squee, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.
They didn't retcon that out. We saw her change during her core 15 story realizing it was now Zenikdar vs Eldrazi.
@Ree Wicker they also make reference to Nissa having used black mana in the past doing a few BtZ stories so that aspect was kept.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
When was that retconed?
Not sure if a retcon, but it might be similiar to when Wizards just does it for shock value. Like when one of the first story articles for Scars of Mirrodin was literally killing off Glissa and Squee, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.
They didn't retcon that out. We saw her change during her core 15 story realizing it was now Zenikdar vs Eldrazi.
@Ree Wicker they also make reference to Nissa having used black mana in the past doing a few BtZ stories so that aspect was kept.
Did they keep it in? I remember back during origins that a lot of websites chatted about how that character trait of Nissa was retconned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Also something to chew on, the other things on why the breakup seems really rough:
1) Also the Joraga lived before getting retconed to dying horribly to the Eldrazi. As this now does make Nissa one of the few survivors of that culture which wasn't a thing before retconning.
When was that retconed?
Not sure if a retcon, but it might be similiar to when Wizards just does it for shock value. Like when one of the first story articles for Scars of Mirrodin was literally killing off Glissa and Squee, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.
They didn't retcon that out. We saw her change during her core 15 story realizing it was now Zenikdar vs Eldrazi.
@Ree Wicker they also make reference to Nissa having used black mana in the past doing a few BtZ stories so that aspect was kept.
Did they keep it in? I remember back during origins that a lot of websites chatted about how that character trait of Nissa was retconned.
Issue was most of the elf racist stuff was in her original bio for duel of the planeswalker and not mentioned much outside of that. We got the M15 story which seems not canon compared to her origins but later said to be the shift in character for her. Its a mess but it seem that with Nissa character that she trusted the elves and Zendikar more so then anyone else and after her tribe tossed her out she got worst and only talked to Zendikar. She been said to be 60 something so I guess she has had some time to swing in character some, thought her character has been a mess all the same.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Not sure if a retcon, but it might be similiar to when Wizards just does it for shock value. Like when one of the first story articles for Scars of Mirrodin was literally killing off Glissa and Squee, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.
They didn't retcon that out. We saw her change during her core 15 story realizing it was now Zenikdar vs Eldrazi.
@Ree Wicker they also make reference to Nissa having used black mana in the past doing a few BtZ stories so that aspect was kept.
Did they keep it in? I remember back during origins that a lot of websites chatted about how that character trait of Nissa was retconned.
Issue was most of the elf racist stuff was in her original bio for duel of the planeswalker and not mentioned much outside of that. We got the M15 story which seems not canon compared to her origins but later said to be the shift in character for her. Its a mess but it seem that with Nissa character that she trusted the elves and Zendikar more so then anyone else and after her tribe tossed her out she got worst and only talked to Zendikar. She been said to be 60 something so I guess she has had some time to swing in character some, thought her character has been a mess all the same.
Yeah, definitely a hot mess.
As it will be interesting to see how this plays out with her in Zendikar Rising, considering how Forsaken went. My personal guess is she just ends up being that sort of wise hermit character that doesn't like dealing with people.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
@5colors: If its true about black magic, then I will concede that point. Currently rereading the story for her and playing through Nissa's Origins campaign again, as I could be remembering the fate of the Joraga differently. If I am also wrong on this, I will also concede that point.
@Whalaqee: Wouldn't be surprised if she became a hermit. And yes that was part of my point emphasizing the bad hand she has been dealt. As Chandra was her main reason to go plane hopping and helping other planes even before the relationship went romantic, like when an extroverted friend talks their introverted friend into coming along.
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
I also didn't understand what exactly happened to Dovin. It seemed like a diversion to me, not entirely definitive.
(hope he's not dead, as I'd like to see his redemption. he showed genuine concern for innocent civillians in the Kaladesh stories, unlike Ral and Vraska, for example, and they got by scot-free from this, being scorned only for threatening the guilds)
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Because WotC's hypocrisy on important sociopolitical issues it claims to stand for is more important than some *****ty plot points.
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Mostly what Ree Wicker already said, so no use in retreading that ground.
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
Personal headcanon: The mending is unraveling and that the efforts that took place to fix it were merely a temporary solution.
I personally have my bias and fall in the pre-mending category. Because the stories told then are impossible feats now, like the story of Belbe for example from the Phyrexia arc can never happen. You don't get a moving piece like the artwork for Belbe's Portal in a post-mending world for non-walkers when the default answer is to make everyone a walker.
That the only way they could even come close to this same type of storytelling was when Dack Fayden couldn't walk away when the Immortal Sun was active which resulted in his untimely death.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Because WotC's hypocrisy on important sociopolitical issues it claims to stand for is more important than some *****ty plot points.
This. Both of these books are full of bad writing and awful story developments, be they from Weisman or the creative team as a whole, but the issue of erasure is the only thing that has legitimately bad real-world concerns. Remember that it isn't just about ship sinking - that happens, and I'm sure it sucks for the people who care about it, but whatever, couples break up or just don't work out - it's about Wizards constantly and proudly stating how much they support minority groups and being proud to represent them in their stories, then taking one of the most apparent examples of such support and saying "Nope, never happened".
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
People have complained about those points, how Chandra and Nissa where handled,as DJK3654 said, hits on sociopolitical issues that have more real life meaning to people and thus its getting the bigger focus.
Also I'd add more people had been writing off Dovin as dead, just took the sequel to kill him.
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
I think you just help realized why the Kaya thing is so bothersome to me. With Bolas bridge he need to have an undead army coated in magical rock to keep them safe so, Mowu seems to be a living statue and can survive by becoming inorganic and Wrenn bounding with tree folk most likely has them become a part of her body so her spark can protect them both. With Kaya she can take anyone with her with almost no limit (just a risk which we will most likely never see) and nothing about her ghost powers ever screamed she could take people with her on walks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
People have complained about those points, how Chandra and Nissa where handled,as DJK3654 said, hits on sociopolitical issues that have more real life meaning to people and thus its getting the bigger focus.
Also I'd add more people had been writing off Dovin as dead, just took the sequel to kill him.
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
I think you just help realized why the Kaya thing is so bothersome to me. With Bolas bridge he need to have an undead army coated in magical rock to keep them safe so, Mowu seems to be a living statue and can survive by becoming inorganic and Wrenn bounding with tree folk most likely has them become a part of her body so her spark can protect them both. With Kaya she can take anyone with her with almost no limit (just a risk which we will most likely never see) and nothing about her ghost powers ever screamed she could take people with her on walks.
Which creates a fairly relevant plothole.
Question: If Kaya can just shepherd the dead across planes, why did Nicol Bolas need a planar gate to shepherd the dead from Amonkhet to Ravnica? Such as quietly sending small insurgent groups of elite lazotep forces into abandoned districts.
Answer: That wasn't originally a power Kaya had. Her abilities were assassinating ghosts and phasing through walls.
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
People have complained about those points, how Chandra and Nissa where handled,as DJK3654 said, hits on sociopolitical issues that have more real life meaning to people and thus its getting the bigger focus.
Also I'd add more people had been writing off Dovin as dead, just took the sequel to kill him.
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
I think you just help realized why the Kaya thing is so bothersome to me. With Bolas bridge he need to have an undead army coated in magical rock to keep them safe so, Mowu seems to be a living statue and can survive by becoming inorganic and Wrenn bounding with tree folk most likely has them become a part of her body so her spark can protect them both. With Kaya she can take anyone with her with almost no limit (just a risk which we will most likely never see) and nothing about her ghost powers ever screamed she could take people with her on walks.
Which creates a fairly relevant plothole.
Question: If Kaya can just shepherd the dead across planes, why did Nicol Bolas need a planar gate to shepherd the dead from Amonkhet to Ravnica? Such as quietly sending small insurgent groups of elite lazotep forces into abandoned districts.
Answer: That wasn't originally a power Kaya had. Her abilities were assassinating ghosts and phasing through walls.
If her abilities have been turned into "she can turn into a ghost and do ghost *****" then I'll approve of it if we get to see her possess a villain and make them punch themselves in the nads. We're already at that level of camp, they might as well embrace it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Mostly what Ree Wicker already said, so no use in retreading that ground.
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
Personal headcanon: The mending is unraveling and that the efforts that took place to fix it were merely a temporary solution.
I personally have my bias and fall in the pre-mending category. Because the stories told then are impossible feats now, like the story of Belbe for example from the Phyrexia arc can never happen. You don't get a moving piece like the artwork for Belbe's Portal in a post-mending world for non-walkers when the default answer is to make everyone a walker.
That the only way they could even come close to this same type of storytelling was when Dack Fayden couldn't walk away when the Immortal Sun was active which resulted in his untimely death.
If the rules of the mending become so screwed up that it effectively undoes it, I'm all for that. The mending was always a mistake, from the start, it ruined Magic story's most unique facet, the Planeswalkers. Instead of focusing on plane bound characters that could only go to other planes with help from magical machines and planeswalkers, with those planeswalkers being larger than life demi gods looming over the story and occasionally interacting in cool ways, we've gone to focusing on planeswalkers all the time but taking away most of what made them a cool concept. When most planeswalkers are no different than any other regular character then they just aren't any more interesting than any other regular character, because being able to hop planes was never the interesting thing about planeswalkers (especially when the planes are usually just worlds of hats). In fact, it makes them LESS interesting than other characters, because they have an innate bug out button they can push when ***** goes sideways, whereas plane bound characters are much more invested in and connected to their planes, and thus face higher stakes and more compelling motivations.
As a side note, the world of hats model combined with following neowalkers around everywhere has had the effect of making the multiverse seem much smaller. When the world of hats model started pre mending, each world was occupied by unique characters you were just meeting and would leave when you left the world. There could be some connections to other worlds via planeswalkers, like Karn on Mirrodin or Bolas being involved with Kamigawa, but again those connections involved god like figures who were for the most part in the background. The result was that the worlds felt truly cut off from each other, even when we had the Weatherlight and planar portals, because without those contrivances we weren't following characters from plane to plane (Weatherlight again is the major exception, but that was basically putting a crew on the Enterprise). With neowalkers, you just have superheros that you follow from story to story, so when they hop from Ixalan to Innistrad to Kaladesh you don't get the feel that they are going to different universes, but just different continents on the same world that have different kinds of magic. Typing it out right now, I realize that the only difference between a story where Ixalan, Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros and Innistrad are different worlds vs one where they are distant continents on the same world is that the former actually has LESS potential, because if they were on the same world you'd be able to set up a story where all those places find each other and interact.
But yeah, rambling aside, the god like immortal shapeshifting (often mad) beings that were oldwalkers were always more interesting than the superhero neowalkers. We already had superhero type characters in the old story, they were just plane bound characters. Oldwalkers were something that tied Magic closer to fantasy and gave Magic something that other properties didn't have. Neowalkers just don't stand out from the crowd, which is why the Gatewatch was immediately, derisively, and correctly labeled the Jacetus League. And all this was supposedly done so that the story could focus on the characters and spin better stories than in the past. Well, after almost 15 years I'd say that's failed miserably. Nothing that's been put out since then has been as good as the Thran, Kamigawa, Urza's Saga, or even the pretty paint by numbers Weatherlight saga or the intentionally pulpy Ravnica block. There's been a few great web stories, but overall the arcs have been pretty meh. And that's just quality, the creativity has been way down as well. The most outside the box flat out awesome thing has been Bolas' eternals plot, which can be described as a dragon wizard enslaves an Egypt plane to farm warriors to turn into zombies with which to attack a city world via stargate. Unfortunately, it falls apart for being a letdown in practice and serving the ultimate and tired motivation of Bolas wants to nom nom nom sparks so he can become a god like being again, which is honestly why I was rooting for him to succeed because its almost like meta commentary that Bolas realized how much neowalkers sucked and wanted to kill them off as a concept so Oldwalkers could come back. Compare that to the insanity of Invasion, which featured as a subplot 9 insane god wizards strapping into mechs to nuke Robot Hell with a bomb powered by the souls of gods. That's so over the top 90's metal its a statue of Jack Black made out of 70's vans with murals painted on their sides. I'd rather see confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scourge than confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scars of Mirrodin, because at least the former is a weird mescaline trip while the latter is some banal nonsense.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
If the rules of the mending become so screwed up that it effectively undoes it, I'm all for that. The mending was always a mistake, from the start, it ruined Magic story's most unique facet, the Planeswalkers. Instead of focusing on plane bound characters that could only go to other planes with help from magical machines and planeswalkers, with those planeswalkers being larger than life demi gods looming over the story and occasionally interacting in cool ways, we've gone to focusing on planeswalkers all the time but taking away most of what made them a cool concept. When most planeswalkers are no different than any other regular character then they just aren't any more interesting than any other regular character, because being able to hop planes was never the interesting thing about planeswalkers (especially when the planes are usually just worlds of hats). In fact, it makes them LESS interesting than other characters, because they have an innate bug out button they can push when ***** goes sideways, whereas plane bound characters are much more invested in and connected to their planes, and thus face higher stakes and more compelling motivations.
As a side note, the world of hats model combined with following neowalkers around everywhere has had the effect of making the multiverse seem much smaller. When the world of hats model started pre mending, each world was occupied by unique characters you were just meeting and would leave when you left the world. There could be some connections to other worlds via planeswalkers, like Karn on Mirrodin or Bolas being involved with Kamigawa, but again those connections involved god like figures who were for the most part in the background. The result was that the worlds felt truly cut off from each other, even when we had the Weatherlight and planar portals, because without those contrivances we weren't following characters from plane to plane (Weatherlight again is the major exception, but that was basically putting a crew on the Enterprise). With neowalkers, you just have superheros that you follow from story to story, so when they hop from Ixalan to Innistrad to Kaladesh you don't get the feel that they are going to different universes, but just different continents on the same world that have different kinds of magic. Typing it out right now, I realize that the only difference between a story where Ixalan, Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros and Innistrad are different worlds vs one where they are distant continents on the same world is that the former actually has LESS potential, because if they were on the same world you'd be able to set up a story where all those places find each other and interact.
But yeah, rambling aside, the god like immortal shapeshifting (often mad) beings that were oldwalkers were always more interesting than the superhero neowalkers. We already had superhero type characters in the old story, they were just plane bound characters. Oldwalkers were something that tied Magic closer to fantasy and gave Magic something that other properties didn't have. Neowalkers just don't stand out from the crowd, which is why the Gatewatch was immediately, derisively, and correctly labeled the Jacetus League. And all this was supposedly done so that the story could focus on the characters and spin better stories than in the past. Well, after almost 15 years I'd say that's failed miserably. Nothing that's been put out since then has been as good as the Thran, Kamigawa, Urza's Saga, or even the pretty paint by numbers Weatherlight saga or the intentionally pulpy Ravnica block. There's been a few great web stories, but overall the arcs have been pretty meh. And that's just quality, the creativity has been way down as well. The most outside the box flat out awesome thing has been Bolas' eternals plot, which can be described as a dragon wizard enslaves an Egypt plane to farm warriors to turn into zombies with which to attack a city world via stargate. Unfortunately, it falls apart for being a letdown in practice and serving the ultimate and tired motivation of Bolas wants to nom nom nom sparks so he can become a god like being again, which is honestly why I was rooting for him to succeed because its almost like meta commentary that Bolas realized how much neowalkers sucked and wanted to kill them off as a concept so Oldwalkers could come back. Compare that to the insanity of Invasion, which featured as a subplot 9 insane god wizards strapping into mechs to nuke Robot Hell with a bomb powered by the souls of gods. That's so over the top 90's metal its a statue of Jack Black made out of 70's vans with murals painted on their sides. I'd rather see confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scourge than confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scars of Mirrodin, because at least the former is a weird mescaline trip while the latter is some banal nonsense.
I could not possibly agree more with literally everything here.
I was speaking to a friend about this the other day, and he mentioned something - one very small change - which would have made WotS infinitely more compelling. What if, instead of being a spell to grant Bolas UNLIMITED POWAH or whatever, the Elderspell was instead a spell to reverse the Mending? Think of how much would change about the story if that were the case. It would grant a bit of nuance and depth to what Bolas was trying to accomplish, rather than just having him stand as the one-dimensional big bad evil guy. It would give other planeswalkers actual, legitimate reason to join with him, regardless of their own morality or characteristics. There'd be some awesome opportunity for studying characters even with nothing more to go by than which side they join and why. How much more compelling would Liliana's arc had been if, instead of serving Bolas because boo hoo he made me do it, she instead remembered what it was like being an oldwalker and gave in to the temptation to have that kind of power again? What if Nissa was tempted by the power to be able to truly heal Zendikar? I believe Chandra had headed off to train some more after Amonkhet - wouldn't an impulsive red-aligned character love the opportunity to shortcut the hard work to get immediate results? Even minor characters - Davriel gets the opportunity to create his own little hammerspace where he can be left alone as long as he wants. How does Jaya react to Chandra's decision, whatever it may be? What about Sorin and Nahiri - neither of them want to help Bolas, but can't help but think what if the other one does? And most of all, what is Bolas's thought process behind all this? After undoing the Mending and supercharging not just himself but other planeswalkers again, what does he do next? Does he care that other planeswalkers are supercharged as well, and what does he plan to do about it? Or does he just want his own power back, and if so, what does he want to do with it?
And that's all just spewed forth from the top of my head as someone who's only tangentially familiar with the whole thing. Goodness knows what a team of experienced professionals whose job it is to know and create this stuff could come up with. The end result is that War of the Spark ends up being an actual war, with legitimate justifications on each side as opposed to "Generic big bad evil guy" and "Generic big good hero folks". It would give us a real chance to see how the characters all react to each other doing whatever they do. Because that's what makes crossovers cool - not just seeing characters standing next to each other, but seeing how they play off each other. WotS was billed as a big old planeswalker crossover, but given how the vast majority of them other than the Goatwatch were just background faces who were just there to fill in numbers, it might as well have been just another GW story, the whole "crossover" aspect completely wasted.
Even if it didn't actually succeed in reversing the Mending and Bolas was defeated and hurrah big happy status quo celebration yay, it would at least have provided for a decently compelling story. It would have helped War of the Spark feel like an actual war, as opposed to just another excruciatingly generic "defeat the big bad evil guy" story.
SqueeSlobad, then resurrecting Glissa into a phyrexian monster. As I know the reason that the Akoum novel isn't canon, aside from origins. Is the unsavory character trait that was originally Nissa believing that the Joraga elves were better than any other race, which basically made her an Elf Supremacist. I think retconning that novel and character trait resulted in a much worse of character ironically than just keeping it canon and having Nissa mellow out when it turns out the Joraga people she believed better were all gone, except for her anyway.EDIT: (Whoops my bad, meant Slobad, brain went to Squee as usually people talk about dying, also Slobad didn't deserve to die, but that is neither here nor their)
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
They didn't retcon that out. We saw her change during her core 15 story realizing it was now Zenikdar vs Eldrazi.
@Ree Wicker they also make reference to Nissa having used black mana in the past doing a few BtZ stories so that aspect was kept.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
Issue was most of the elf racist stuff was in her original bio for duel of the planeswalker and not mentioned much outside of that. We got the M15 story which seems not canon compared to her origins but later said to be the shift in character for her. Its a mess but it seem that with Nissa character that she trusted the elves and Zendikar more so then anyone else and after her tribe tossed her out she got worst and only talked to Zendikar. She been said to be 60 something so I guess she has had some time to swing in character some, thought her character has been a mess all the same.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
As it will be interesting to see how this plays out with her in Zendikar Rising, considering how Forsaken went. My personal guess is she just ends up being that sort of wise hermit character that doesn't like dealing with people.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
@Whalaqee: Wouldn't be surprised if she became a hermit. And yes that was part of my point emphasizing the bad hand she has been dealt. As Chandra was her main reason to go plane hopping and helping other planes even before the relationship went romantic, like when an extroverted friend talks their introverted friend into coming along.
[I concede]
Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?
I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.
Thanks in advance.
I also didn't understand what exactly happened to Dovin. It seemed like a diversion to me, not entirely definitive.
(hope he's not dead, as I'd like to see his redemption. he showed genuine concern for innocent civillians in the Kaladesh stories, unlike Ral and Vraska, for example, and they got by scot-free from this, being scorned only for threatening the guilds)
Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.
These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.
Because WotC's hypocrisy on important sociopolitical issues it claims to stand for is more important than some *****ty plot points.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.
Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.
Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat
Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending
Personal headcanon: The mending is unraveling and that the efforts that took place to fix it were merely a temporary solution.
I personally have my bias and fall in the pre-mending category. Because the stories told then are impossible feats now, like the story of Belbe for example from the Phyrexia arc can never happen. You don't get a moving piece like the artwork for Belbe's Portal in a post-mending world for non-walkers when the default answer is to make everyone a walker.
That the only way they could even come close to this same type of storytelling was when Dack Fayden couldn't walk away when the Immortal Sun was active which resulted in his untimely death.
People have complained about those points, how Chandra and Nissa where handled,as DJK3654 said, hits on sociopolitical issues that have more real life meaning to people and thus its getting the bigger focus.
Also I'd add more people had been writing off Dovin as dead, just took the sequel to kill him.
I think you just help realized why the Kaya thing is so bothersome to me. With Bolas bridge he need to have an undead army coated in magical rock to keep them safe so, Mowu seems to be a living statue and can survive by becoming inorganic and Wrenn bounding with tree folk most likely has them become a part of her body so her spark can protect them both. With Kaya she can take anyone with her with almost no limit (just a risk which we will most likely never see) and nothing about her ghost powers ever screamed she could take people with her on walks.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Question: If Kaya can just shepherd the dead across planes, why did Nicol Bolas need a planar gate to shepherd the dead from Amonkhet to Ravnica? Such as quietly sending small insurgent groups of elite lazotep forces into abandoned districts.
Answer: That wasn't originally a power Kaya had. Her abilities were assassinating ghosts and phasing through walls.
If her abilities have been turned into "she can turn into a ghost and do ghost *****" then I'll approve of it if we get to see her possess a villain and make them punch themselves in the nads. We're already at that level of camp, they might as well embrace it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
If the rules of the mending become so screwed up that it effectively undoes it, I'm all for that. The mending was always a mistake, from the start, it ruined Magic story's most unique facet, the Planeswalkers. Instead of focusing on plane bound characters that could only go to other planes with help from magical machines and planeswalkers, with those planeswalkers being larger than life demi gods looming over the story and occasionally interacting in cool ways, we've gone to focusing on planeswalkers all the time but taking away most of what made them a cool concept. When most planeswalkers are no different than any other regular character then they just aren't any more interesting than any other regular character, because being able to hop planes was never the interesting thing about planeswalkers (especially when the planes are usually just worlds of hats). In fact, it makes them LESS interesting than other characters, because they have an innate bug out button they can push when ***** goes sideways, whereas plane bound characters are much more invested in and connected to their planes, and thus face higher stakes and more compelling motivations.
As a side note, the world of hats model combined with following neowalkers around everywhere has had the effect of making the multiverse seem much smaller. When the world of hats model started pre mending, each world was occupied by unique characters you were just meeting and would leave when you left the world. There could be some connections to other worlds via planeswalkers, like Karn on Mirrodin or Bolas being involved with Kamigawa, but again those connections involved god like figures who were for the most part in the background. The result was that the worlds felt truly cut off from each other, even when we had the Weatherlight and planar portals, because without those contrivances we weren't following characters from plane to plane (Weatherlight again is the major exception, but that was basically putting a crew on the Enterprise). With neowalkers, you just have superheros that you follow from story to story, so when they hop from Ixalan to Innistrad to Kaladesh you don't get the feel that they are going to different universes, but just different continents on the same world that have different kinds of magic. Typing it out right now, I realize that the only difference between a story where Ixalan, Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros and Innistrad are different worlds vs one where they are distant continents on the same world is that the former actually has LESS potential, because if they were on the same world you'd be able to set up a story where all those places find each other and interact.
But yeah, rambling aside, the god like immortal shapeshifting (often mad) beings that were oldwalkers were always more interesting than the superhero neowalkers. We already had superhero type characters in the old story, they were just plane bound characters. Oldwalkers were something that tied Magic closer to fantasy and gave Magic something that other properties didn't have. Neowalkers just don't stand out from the crowd, which is why the Gatewatch was immediately, derisively, and correctly labeled the Jacetus League. And all this was supposedly done so that the story could focus on the characters and spin better stories than in the past. Well, after almost 15 years I'd say that's failed miserably. Nothing that's been put out since then has been as good as the Thran, Kamigawa, Urza's Saga, or even the pretty paint by numbers Weatherlight saga or the intentionally pulpy Ravnica block. There's been a few great web stories, but overall the arcs have been pretty meh. And that's just quality, the creativity has been way down as well. The most outside the box flat out awesome thing has been Bolas' eternals plot, which can be described as a dragon wizard enslaves an Egypt plane to farm warriors to turn into zombies with which to attack a city world via stargate. Unfortunately, it falls apart for being a letdown in practice and serving the ultimate and tired motivation of Bolas wants to nom nom nom sparks so he can become a god like being again, which is honestly why I was rooting for him to succeed because its almost like meta commentary that Bolas realized how much neowalkers sucked and wanted to kill them off as a concept so Oldwalkers could come back. Compare that to the insanity of Invasion, which featured as a subplot 9 insane god wizards strapping into mechs to nuke Robot Hell with a bomb powered by the souls of gods. That's so over the top 90's metal its a statue of Jack Black made out of 70's vans with murals painted on their sides. I'd rather see confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scourge than confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scars of Mirrodin, because at least the former is a weird mescaline trip while the latter is some banal nonsense.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I was speaking to a friend about this the other day, and he mentioned something - one very small change - which would have made WotS infinitely more compelling. What if, instead of being a spell to grant Bolas UNLIMITED POWAH or whatever, the Elderspell was instead a spell to reverse the Mending? Think of how much would change about the story if that were the case. It would grant a bit of nuance and depth to what Bolas was trying to accomplish, rather than just having him stand as the one-dimensional big bad evil guy. It would give other planeswalkers actual, legitimate reason to join with him, regardless of their own morality or characteristics. There'd be some awesome opportunity for studying characters even with nothing more to go by than which side they join and why. How much more compelling would Liliana's arc had been if, instead of serving Bolas because boo hoo he made me do it, she instead remembered what it was like being an oldwalker and gave in to the temptation to have that kind of power again? What if Nissa was tempted by the power to be able to truly heal Zendikar? I believe Chandra had headed off to train some more after Amonkhet - wouldn't an impulsive red-aligned character love the opportunity to shortcut the hard work to get immediate results? Even minor characters - Davriel gets the opportunity to create his own little hammerspace where he can be left alone as long as he wants. How does Jaya react to Chandra's decision, whatever it may be? What about Sorin and Nahiri - neither of them want to help Bolas, but can't help but think what if the other one does? And most of all, what is Bolas's thought process behind all this? After undoing the Mending and supercharging not just himself but other planeswalkers again, what does he do next? Does he care that other planeswalkers are supercharged as well, and what does he plan to do about it? Or does he just want his own power back, and if so, what does he want to do with it?
And that's all just spewed forth from the top of my head as someone who's only tangentially familiar with the whole thing. Goodness knows what a team of experienced professionals whose job it is to know and create this stuff could come up with. The end result is that War of the Spark ends up being an actual war, with legitimate justifications on each side as opposed to "Generic big bad evil guy" and "Generic big good hero folks". It would give us a real chance to see how the characters all react to each other doing whatever they do. Because that's what makes crossovers cool - not just seeing characters standing next to each other, but seeing how they play off each other. WotS was billed as a big old planeswalker crossover, but given how the vast majority of them other than the Goatwatch were just background faces who were just there to fill in numbers, it might as well have been just another GW story, the whole "crossover" aspect completely wasted.
Even if it didn't actually succeed in reversing the Mending and Bolas was defeated and hurrah big happy status quo celebration yay, it would at least have provided for a decently compelling story. It would have helped War of the Spark feel like an actual war, as opposed to just another excruciatingly generic "defeat the big bad evil guy" story.
"I have sired whole races, populated entire planes, and then hunted them to extinction for my amusement."
- Emperor's Fist