Careful on that 50/50 claim. Thats the same comically incorrect assertion made by the majority in a system with a Match Maker, and..they are wrong.
Normally, I'd agree with you. The catch is that we're talking about match maker where you don't get a sideboard and the games are basically a one and done deal. There is a reason we have a best out of three system with sideboard, and it's to help make the game a bit more about the skill and choices a player makes vs just slamming a bunch of cards and hoping you draw into something.
I can absolutely confirm that 50/50 is accurate. I track my games. My win rate dropped significantly to about 50% the second I hit Platinum rank. It's turned into a hellish slog. Not to mention that it feels like the game starts to intentionally "gate" you more once you hit Plat. I'm facing game after game where I am unable to draw my second color land after like 12 turns. Constantly. On decks that breezed me through the lower ranks, suddenly I am facing mana shortages in like 1/3 of my games.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Not getting a sideboard doesnt change the fact that over time, the better player/deck will win out more. I've been laughing at people claiming Overwatch is 'forced 50/50' for years, and would hate to see that get a hold on the Arena players as well.
Well, it basically works like this: If you run into a deck that your deck can't win against game 1, you lose. If you enter a tier that has that specific deck and it is popular, you have to swap to a different deck, and since the meta is pretty well formed at each tier, your deck either is the meta deck to take the tier or it isn't and you lose more games than you win.
If it were best of 3, the situation would be different entirely, but as it is, if you run a surveil deck and run against a Red White deck you will flat out lose no matter what unless they draw horribly or you are packing some ritual of soots.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thats all well and good, but it is not the artificially enforced '50/50' that you originally alluded to, as then comically claimed by BestMagicGamer, to exist.
MTG:A is really all about the grind. I see people talk about how they don't really put much time into it, like 30 minutes a day, to grind out gems and packs, and that's all well and good if what you are after is a grind. Many players are not. Many players want varied play, in varied formats, with varied decks. Arena simply does not appeal to them because it provides standard and draft, in a form that pushes people into one deck and competitive play.
So one of you Arena grinders spends 3.5 hours a week on Arena, and I spend about the same amount on MTGO. You spend it grinding, I get in a few matches in a sealed or draft league and a commander match one week, some legacy and commander the next, a tournament the next, whatever I feel like. Its a fundamentally different experience.
The FTP grind model is very appealing to some people, and very unappealing to others. What seems like a paltry amount of time to people who enjoy the grind is an unacceptable amount of time to people who don't. For the former, grinding IS playing the game, for the latter its work they have to put in to be able to play the game the way they want. Unfortunately, Arena only really works if you are grinding, because once you start paying for it its not worth it, because your limited to standard and the cards you payed for will be gone once they rotate.
I'm not going to tell anybody they're wrong for liking Arena, but its foolish to argue that it should replace MTGO because the FTP business model makes it a very different game. Conversely, there'd be less hate against Arena from people who don't like it if there wasn't so much confusion around its launch when it seemed intended to replace mtgo, which has since been walked back. I think Wizards understands that a large portion of mtgo's player base would not transition to Arena and simply stop spending money on digital magic, and that they'd end up making profit on digital magic compared to maintaining both systems. Especially when their past experiences with digital alternatives started strong and then crapped out.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Thats all well and good, but it is not the artificially enforced '50/50' that you originally alluded to, as then comically claimed by BestMagicGamer, to exist.
Oh no, it's not artificial at all. It's just that some decks show up more in certain tiers once you get past the barrier of card ownership. Also, I swear when people see a surveil deck, they run for the hills. I keep getting free wins all the time because of it. Not sure how proud I should feel about that...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
MTG:A is really all about the grind. I see people talk about how they don't really put much time into it, like 30 minutes a day, to grind out gems and packs, and that's all well and good if what you are after is a grind. Many players are not. Many players want varied play, in varied formats, with varied decks. Arena simply does not appeal to them because it provides standard and draft, in a form that pushes people into one deck and competitive play.
So one of you Arena grinders spends 3.5 hours a week on Arena, and I spend about the same amount on MTGO. You spend it grinding, I get in a few matches in a sealed or draft league and a commander match one week, some legacy and commander the next, a tournament the next, whatever I feel like. Its a fundamentally different experience.
The FTP grind model is very appealing to some people, and very unappealing to others. What seems like a paltry amount of time to people who enjoy the grind is an unacceptable amount of time to people who don't. For the former, grinding IS playing the game, for the latter its work they have to put in to be able to play the game the way they want. Unfortunately, Arena only really works if you are grinding, because once you start paying for it its not worth it, because your limited to standard and the cards you payed for will be gone once they rotate.
I'm not going to tell anybody they're wrong for liking Arena, but its foolish to argue that it should replace MTGO because the FTP business model makes it a very different game. Conversely, there'd be less hate against Arena from people who don't like it if there wasn't so much confusion around its launch when it seemed intended to replace mtgo, which has since been walked back. I think Wizards understands that a large portion of mtgo's player base would not transition to Arena and simply stop spending money on digital magic, and that they'd end up making profit on digital magic compared to maintaining both systems. Especially when their past experiences with digital alternatives started strong and then crapped out.
This is a really well thought-out post and I appreciate the other perspective. The part I bolded is what really struck me as notable - You've got a point in that there is a grind, and it didn't really occur to me that what I see as "the grind that is playing the game" others might see as "the grind that prevents me from playing the game".
The F2P Model does have some shortcomings, one I've really noticed in application is that if you decide you want to pay for more than the $5 welcome pack, you had better be willing to spend enough to complete your collection. The free to play fish get fed because it has a very nice return on a zero investment. The whales get fed because they have everything, and even as new sets drop it's a very small incremental purchase to have everything again. The dolphins in the middle, who only put $50 or $100 into the game, they're the ones who get squeezed because their RoI is very poor compared to the freeplayers while also not having the flexibility to build whatever they want like the whales would. You either have to spend nothing, or spend a ton; anything in the middle is wasted, and it's lost on a lot of people because it's not obvious or intuitive.
The lack of other formats is something I do want to bring up, though. Yes, we only have the standard card pool. Yes, I'd like it to expand. Yes, if they don't come up with an answer to rotation this game will straight up die in the fall. But Wizards has, to their credit, shown a lot of ingenuity and creativity in what they can do with that. We just finished a pauper format that not only was free to play in, but gave you promo cards for doing so (And the pauper metagame even in standard was very enjoyable and required a good amount of forethought). The Streamer formats have had the occasional miss but most of them have been amazing (Amazonian's Omniscience draft was hands-down the most fun I've had with magic in a LONG time, Nox's Maelstrom Nexus standard and Kibler's Monster standard were also fun) and they've been a great way to get away from just worrying about ladder.
You've got a point about how MTGO still has plenty of reasons to stick around, and I think it will - and SHOULD - stick around so long as Arena can't do those unique formats better, and even IF that happens I feel MTGO's crowd won't and shouldn't make the switch without a significant amount of compensation for doing so. Wizards has had this game survive for 25 years, I would like to think they have enough foresight to not alienate such a big part of their digital player base. With any luck they won't ruin it.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
The middle of the ground player has to wait until deck techs come out or play on other F2P services that let you build anything you want, like Cockatrice. Once you know what to aim for than you can save a lot of money doing so. The problem is the daily objectives. I don't know if they are refreshing these starter decks each season or not, and those are the only way to really get a majority of cards needed to play basic magic without paying out the wazoo.
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():
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The middle of the ground player has to wait until deck techs come out or play on other F2P services that let you build anything you want, like Cockatrice. Once you know what to aim for than you can save a lot of money doing so. The problem is the daily objectives. I don't know if they are refreshing these starter decks each season or not, and those are the only way to really get a majority of cards needed to play basic magic without paying out the wazoo.
I had all of those starter decks within like 2 weeks. Everyone should have those easily, and they are decent starting points.
The middle of the ground player has to wait until deck techs come out or play on other F2P services that let you build anything you want, like Cockatrice. Once you know what to aim for than you can save a lot of money doing so. The problem is the daily objectives. I don't know if they are refreshing these starter decks each season or not, and those are the only way to really get a majority of cards needed to play basic magic without paying out the wazoo.
I had all of those starter decks within like 2 weeks. Everyone should have those easily, and they are decent starting points.
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering if they are updating them with each season when rotation hits. New players get them, obviously, but if someone stops playing for a while and comes back then what? Anyone here played past rotation and know what they do with the starters?
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering if they are updating them with each season when rotation hits. New players get them, obviously, but if someone stops playing for a while and comes back then what? Anyone here played past rotation and know what they do with the starters?
I would expect them to update the starters with rotation, but that won't help players returning from a break, since I do absolutely not see them giving out additional starters to those who already accquired them once - maybe there will be another mechanic to compensate for cards lost to rotation, but we will have to wait and see.
When opening packs does the 10x button do anything? I was curious.
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():
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I can absolutely confirm that 50/50 is accurate. I track my games. My win rate dropped significantly to about 50% the second I hit Platinum rank. It's turned into a hellish slog. Not to mention that it feels like the game starts to intentionally "gate" you more once you hit Plat. I'm facing game after game where I am unable to draw my second color land after like 12 turns. Constantly. On decks that breezed me through the lower ranks, suddenly I am facing mana shortages in like 1/3 of my games.
Spirits
-Stay Frosty
Well, it basically works like this: If you run into a deck that your deck can't win against game 1, you lose. If you enter a tier that has that specific deck and it is popular, you have to swap to a different deck, and since the meta is pretty well formed at each tier, your deck either is the meta deck to take the tier or it isn't and you lose more games than you win.
If it were best of 3, the situation would be different entirely, but as it is, if you run a surveil deck and run against a Red White deck you will flat out lose no matter what unless they draw horribly or you are packing some ritual of soots.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
So one of you Arena grinders spends 3.5 hours a week on Arena, and I spend about the same amount on MTGO. You spend it grinding, I get in a few matches in a sealed or draft league and a commander match one week, some legacy and commander the next, a tournament the next, whatever I feel like. Its a fundamentally different experience.
The FTP grind model is very appealing to some people, and very unappealing to others. What seems like a paltry amount of time to people who enjoy the grind is an unacceptable amount of time to people who don't. For the former, grinding IS playing the game, for the latter its work they have to put in to be able to play the game the way they want. Unfortunately, Arena only really works if you are grinding, because once you start paying for it its not worth it, because your limited to standard and the cards you payed for will be gone once they rotate.
I'm not going to tell anybody they're wrong for liking Arena, but its foolish to argue that it should replace MTGO because the FTP business model makes it a very different game. Conversely, there'd be less hate against Arena from people who don't like it if there wasn't so much confusion around its launch when it seemed intended to replace mtgo, which has since been walked back. I think Wizards understands that a large portion of mtgo's player base would not transition to Arena and simply stop spending money on digital magic, and that they'd end up making profit on digital magic compared to maintaining both systems. Especially when their past experiences with digital alternatives started strong and then crapped out.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Oh no, it's not artificial at all. It's just that some decks show up more in certain tiers once you get past the barrier of card ownership. Also, I swear when people see a surveil deck, they run for the hills. I keep getting free wins all the time because of it. Not sure how proud I should feel about that...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is a really well thought-out post and I appreciate the other perspective. The part I bolded is what really struck me as notable - You've got a point in that there is a grind, and it didn't really occur to me that what I see as "the grind that is playing the game" others might see as "the grind that prevents me from playing the game".
The F2P Model does have some shortcomings, one I've really noticed in application is that if you decide you want to pay for more than the $5 welcome pack, you had better be willing to spend enough to complete your collection. The free to play fish get fed because it has a very nice return on a zero investment. The whales get fed because they have everything, and even as new sets drop it's a very small incremental purchase to have everything again. The dolphins in the middle, who only put $50 or $100 into the game, they're the ones who get squeezed because their RoI is very poor compared to the freeplayers while also not having the flexibility to build whatever they want like the whales would. You either have to spend nothing, or spend a ton; anything in the middle is wasted, and it's lost on a lot of people because it's not obvious or intuitive.
The lack of other formats is something I do want to bring up, though. Yes, we only have the standard card pool. Yes, I'd like it to expand. Yes, if they don't come up with an answer to rotation this game will straight up die in the fall. But Wizards has, to their credit, shown a lot of ingenuity and creativity in what they can do with that. We just finished a pauper format that not only was free to play in, but gave you promo cards for doing so (And the pauper metagame even in standard was very enjoyable and required a good amount of forethought). The Streamer formats have had the occasional miss but most of them have been amazing (Amazonian's Omniscience draft was hands-down the most fun I've had with magic in a LONG time, Nox's Maelstrom Nexus standard and Kibler's Monster standard were also fun) and they've been a great way to get away from just worrying about ladder.
You've got a point about how MTGO still has plenty of reasons to stick around, and I think it will - and SHOULD - stick around so long as Arena can't do those unique formats better, and even IF that happens I feel MTGO's crowd won't and shouldn't make the switch without a significant amount of compensation for doing so. Wizards has had this game survive for 25 years, I would like to think they have enough foresight to not alienate such a big part of their digital player base. With any luck they won't ruin it.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I had all of those starter decks within like 2 weeks. Everyone should have those easily, and they are decent starting points.
Spirits
Yeah, that's why I'm wondering if they are updating them with each season when rotation hits. New players get them, obviously, but if someone stops playing for a while and comes back then what? Anyone here played past rotation and know what they do with the starters?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
I would expect them to update the starters with rotation, but that won't help players returning from a break, since I do absolutely not see them giving out additional starters to those who already accquired them once - maybe there will be another mechanic to compensate for cards lost to rotation, but we will have to wait and see.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
I'm currently looking for:
80 UltraPro Sorin Markov Sleeves
80 UltraPro Sarkhan the Mad SleevesGot em'80 UltraPro Ajani Vengeant Sleeves
80 UltraPro Nicol Bolas Sleeves (Conflux)
I don't have the BW Vampire-ish one, been playing since Sep *shrugs*
-Stay Frosty