Well... Don't forget that there exist cities in the skies. The Islands could certainly relate to that. that way they wouldn't have to call it "City Covered island" they could call it something else. Like... Stratus Metropolis ... or something -_-.
Still the set sounds very boring so far. Perhaps without the overwhelming flavor that Kamigawa has the set can focus more on good extended and vintage and legacy worthy mechanics
A city type of atmosphere had to have been done eventually, and I think guilds are a perfect match for cities. Additionally, there are numerous flavorful ways of expressing even basic lands types after they have already been engulfed by cities, without using "city covered" in any way. It seems to me that that would subtract from the flavor rather than adding to it.
I can't wait for this set. The flavor of a city is very different from that of a open world(yes, I know it was done already in masqes, but I think they will take it in a way different direction)and I have every confidense that wizards can pull it off in a satisfing way.
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Keep in mind that this city is a fantasy style city, not a modern city. Also keep in mind that we don't have anything saying that the entire plane is one massive city, just implications that there are very big cities. I strongly suspect that this city will at least thin out in places, leaving room for forests and swamps. Plains, mountains, and islands can be done with cities on them. It's surprising how many people are speculating about the loss of basic lands.
Meh. "Guildpact" sounds stupid. I'm fine with a "City" theme block, but lately seems like they've been going for style over substance. Hey, what cool theme can we come up with--then make all the cards to fit the theme.
I think with Mercadian Masques it was the opposite, they make the cards and design a theme, and end up having creatures like Corrupt Official and Balloon Peddler. They could've been Specters or Wizards, but noo.
Thus, if they want to make sure out front that this time the cards are going to be cool, that's perfectly fine with me. I'd personally like to see more cyclops, stone trolls, vampires and werewolves running through the streets. Oh wait, I'm thinking of another fantasy series.
This thread talks about how 9th edition has "land packs" - 40 card boxes of just lands. This is the perfect way to get basic lands out of the Core Set - people can just buy the land packs to get any new, ultra-common, nonbasic lands.
I think with Mercadian Masques it was the opposite, they make the cards and design a theme, and end up having creatures like Corrupt Official and Balloon Peddler. They could've been Specters or Wizards, but noo.
You know that Mercadia had the Deepwood (swamp) Rushwood (forest) Saprazzo and Rishada (islands) and the entire city was perched atop a mountain surrounded by barren fields, right? Mercadian Masques had a city theme, but other land types were still represented. I wouldn't be surprised if Ravnica was similar (Masques without the underpoweredness), even though Wizards may choose to take it in a bit of a different direction.
Um, yeah, I know that. I was just commenting on Holmes' post. I agree with you and a few others here - I don't think we'll say goodbye to plains and co. soon, and we'll probably still see them in Ravnica.
Baseless speculation #376: Could it be, then, that Ravnica has something like the Vanguard cards to represent the guilds? Like, once you have one on the table, it can't be removed from game, etc etc.
Sensible idea XiV considering Vanguard is being added to MTGO, something that wouldn't make that much sense unless something to make it actually worthwhile for common play would happen.
Sure the Vanguard MTGO variants sound kind of interesting, but seems like an awfully big effort for a function that could see little use otherwise.
i think varients based on vanguard would be very unlikely based on that i think that it goes way beyond some of the rules wizards would break. it would be creating aa ne w type of card not sub type like equipment or arcane.
Guesswork, correct me if I'm wrong but you're speculating that Ravnica could take it the direction of the artifact lands: lands that are ESSENTIALLY basic lands, just not basic lands. This would HEAVILY encourage and reward multi-color play and the lands could have cross-mechanics relating to the "guilds" similar to how the artifact lands helped Affinity.
Correct?
Also, I'm not fully understanding the example of the land cycles that you gave for the large expansions. I think you meant to say Core Set in one area and Expert Set Large Expansion in another. Can you give specific card examples please?
@Squall: Artifact lands are certainly taboo, so I don't want to go around saying that WotC is going to print more of them. And, I am certainly not suggesting that WotC would print any lands that are strictly better than basic lands.
I re-read my last two posts, and while they are pretty wordy, I don't think that I misspoke. Each expert level large expansion has come with four ultra-common versions of each of the five basic lands, plus a cycle of five common lands (two blocks excepted, noted previously). Each Core Set has had four ultra-common versions of each of the five basic lands.
I'm saying that, rather than give us four versions of each of the five basic lands, they are going to give us four lands with different names for each color. These lands may or may not be functionally identical to one another. They will also continue to give us a functionally different land for each color in the common slot. This will be the policy on lands for all sets either from 9th edition onwards, or from Ravnica onwards.
Assuming this to be true, I am speculating that in Ravnica, the four lands for each color may not be functionally identical to one another. This difference could play an important role in the guild theme. The difference may be as trivial as the lands having different subtypes (which wouldn't surprise me, since WotC has been on a "subtype matters" kick for three years now, and the only card type not to be affected in a major way so far is lands.)
Perhaps an illustrative example would help:
Mountain A -------> "Nerf Forge", subtype "Land - Warriors' Guild"
Mountain B -------> "Fugh Alley", subtype "Land - Thieves' Guild"
Plains A -------> "Gram Barracks", subtype "Land - Warriors' Guild"
Swamp A -------> "Yerp Tunnels", subtype "Land - Thieves' Guild"
The lands could all simply have "TAP: Add C to your mana pool" (C being whatever single color the land was for) just like the basic lands.
Again, sorry for the words, but I've learned that it pays to be specific and complete when describing an unconventional idea to a large audience.
Ok, I understand the land cycle now, it was lengthy!
Let's take the example further now. They always have four different arts for each basic land. So can we assume each color gets four "guild" lands?
"Mountain" A: Taps for R, counts as Guild A
"Mountain" B: Taps for R, counts as Guild B
And so forth. So with this possible setup we can have, let's say guilds a-e, or even more but let's just stick with 5, that's easiest. That way, there is one guild that each color is denied access to. Or better yet, say each color only gets three guilds: it's only unique one and then 2 that it shares with allies(or enemies, depending on how we think the multicolor will go). That however leaves the fourth spot open for what? Another guild? Who knows.
Regardless, your theory stands that we will ONLY have these four different land verions that will "take over" where basic lands used to go and that we will still have the common cycle of lands as well, correct?
This is a very interesting theory. You could still do mono-color control, you have access to at LEAST 20 lands that produce your colored mana but you wouldn't be taking FULL advantage of the guild types. Sure, Red may have some warrior guild cards and a warrior guild land, but so does black. And maybe even green. And guess what? They have basic guild lands as well, which encourages you to play multi-color.
If true, this would be VERY cool indeed. A Land set...who would've thunk it?:biggrin3:
am i the only one that noticed this lil bit of text in the artical?
Control, I mean Ravnica, is awesome, but, wow, I'm not quite sure where to start. Okay, the whole thing revolves around… what? Not Control Week. Control Week! Oops. I just about spilled the beans on the next block's big secret. Whew. That was close.
Did you not read the part just one paragraph lower than that where he says that they need to avoid using game terms as codenames so people don't come to inaccurate conclusions like "Control must be the control block!"
Also, did you not read his article last wek where he talked about how blue isn't done sucking yet?
oh i read it... but im not sure i put stock in it... they hint at things and then resind the hints all the time... only for us to descover later that the hint was real... (see april fools last year as a prime example)
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
oh i read it... but im not sure i put stock in it... they hint at things and then resind the hints all the time... only for us to descover later that the hint was real... (see april fools last year as a prime example)
Until Friday, the craziness will be substantially less than Aprilly Foolish (For those without a calendar, Friday is April 1st). In other words, anything done on April Fools doesn't count, and should not be referenced as evidence for anything.
Now, let's look at the very same quote you quoted and take a look at what you missed:
Control, I mean Ravnica, is awesome, but, wow, I'm not quite sure where to start. Okay, the whole thing revolves around… what? Not Control Week. Control Week! Oops. I just about spilled the beans on the next block's big secret. Whew. That was close.
The bolded part is the important bit. That's what he's talking about when he says he almost spilled the beans. He started to say what it revolved around, that's all. There's nothing about blue, nothing about control, nothing about reseting, and certainly nothing about music or sandwiches.
Curious - what would be an 'acceptable' theme for you?
Not one that they just did two years ago.
But, to answer your question in more detail, here are some, what was it... 'acceptable' themes? From my perspective:
1. Multicolor. It's been long enough for this one to get another go. It would need new, non-Invasion mechanics, of course, and preferably a focus on 5-color rather than just allied / opposing colors.
2. Lands. As I've said, in many ways.
3. Phases / turns - they've never really investigated the "time" aspect of the game, excepting the occasional blue rare. They could do a block that really cracked open issues of timing. Note: I believe that, at some point in the near future, "instant" will become either a supertype for other cards ("Instant Sorcery", "Instant Creature"), or a keyword mechanic, and cease being its own card type. A set like this would be the time to do it.
4. Hand / library - what I believe Onslaught was going to be before they stepped in at the 11th hour with a bunch of new mechanics, and the "tribal" theme (reference Amplify, which was originally one of their big block mechanics, and note how Cycling ended up in the set despite the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with the tribal theme). I think that WotC decided that they needed to let these ideas mature for a few years before they tried them again. So, eventually, I think we'll see it.
5. Enchantments. Not like Urza's block, of course. While I'm making big predictions, I'll predict that, at some point, there will be no more global enchantments printed. Either that, or they will come up with new rules to make global enchantments significantly different in the way they work than just being continuous / poly artifacts with a color.
Out of all of those, I only think that the first two are likely to happen in Ravnica. I hope that answers your question.
"Note: I believe that, at some point in the near future, "instant" will become either a supertype for other cards ("Instant Sorcery", "Instant Creature"), or a keyword mechanic, and cease being its own card type. A set like this would be the time to do it."
That would be, quite simply, disgusting. Interrupt was removed to clearup the game rules, making instant a supertype doesn't do anything to fix the rules at all and only helps to clear up a couple of lines of wording on a very small number of cards and takes additional space of the card type box. Just look at Masako the Humorless and tell me that Instant as a supertype would fit in there. It does nothing of concequence to change something like that, other than to make that particular box more cluttered than it needs to be.
I'm not sure if it's confirmed by Wizards, but haven't we pretty much confirmed that Class-types is the main thrust of this one? For the record, I agree w/ above poster...pretty lame, especially w/Onslaught having pretty much burned me out on that type of focus. It was fun, don't get me wrong...but it's far too soon to basically do it again all over.
The Multicolor thing would be cool, and welcomed. re: Invasion, I would say that (apart from all the the allied-color thing) they did have some 5-color type stuff there....the Domain spells come to mind. ("This spell deals/gains/etc X, where X is number of basic lands you control...") They've also done Sunburst, which was a nice 5-color-focused mechanic. Not sure what they'd have left to try...but then again, I don't work in R&D. A return to Kickers would be supreme....one of the best mechanics they've ever done, imho, but I'm sure they'll find an excuse to cram yet [i]another[/i] under-explored, under-flexible mechanic down our throats like most of the recent garbage. I wish they'd quit introducing quite so many keyword abilities....and just focus on one GOOD one and actually flesh it out (like they did w/Kicker).
Sorry...no Instant Sorceries please... An expansion that messed around with timing could interesting. The last one the (kinda) did was Phasing, and that's definitely one of the trickier mechanics so far.
My .02¢
EDIT: Also...the 'Time' aspect of Blue is one of the things [i]mostly[i/] limited to blue, and it's those cards that are definitely one of the reasons Blue has been so ridiculously overpowered over the years. Name me a non-Blue-involved combo that gives you infinite turns? or similar effect? Doubt they'd stop the well-documented hosing of blue to design an entire block that would require extensive development of one of the most powerful/abusable aspects of that color.
Still the set sounds very boring so far. Perhaps without the overwhelming flavor that Kamigawa has the set can focus more on good extended and vintage and legacy worthy mechanics
I can't wait for this set. The flavor of a city is very different from that of a open world(yes, I know it was done already in masqes, but I think they will take it in a way different direction)and I have every confidense that wizards can pull it off in a satisfing way.
Thus, if they want to make sure out front that this time the cards are going to be cool, that's perfectly fine with me. I'd personally like to see more cyclops, stone trolls, vampires and werewolves running through the streets. Oh wait, I'm thinking of another fantasy series.
Just sayin'.
You know that Mercadia had the Deepwood (swamp) Rushwood (forest) Saprazzo and Rishada (islands) and the entire city was perched atop a mountain surrounded by barren fields, right? Mercadian Masques had a city theme, but other land types were still represented. I wouldn't be surprised if Ravnica was similar (Masques without the underpoweredness), even though Wizards may choose to take it in a bit of a different direction.
Baseless speculation #376: Could it be, then, that Ravnica has something like the Vanguard cards to represent the guilds? Like, once you have one on the table, it can't be removed from game, etc etc.
Sure the Vanguard MTGO variants sound kind of interesting, but seems like an awfully big effort for a function that could see little use otherwise.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Correct?
Also, I'm not fully understanding the example of the land cycles that you gave for the large expansions. I think you meant to say Core Set in one area and Expert Set Large Expansion in another. Can you give specific card examples please?
I re-read my last two posts, and while they are pretty wordy, I don't think that I misspoke. Each expert level large expansion has come with four ultra-common versions of each of the five basic lands, plus a cycle of five common lands (two blocks excepted, noted previously). Each Core Set has had four ultra-common versions of each of the five basic lands.
I'm saying that, rather than give us four versions of each of the five basic lands, they are going to give us four lands with different names for each color. These lands may or may not be functionally identical to one another. They will also continue to give us a functionally different land for each color in the common slot. This will be the policy on lands for all sets either from 9th edition onwards, or from Ravnica onwards.
Assuming this to be true, I am speculating that in Ravnica, the four lands for each color may not be functionally identical to one another. This difference could play an important role in the guild theme. The difference may be as trivial as the lands having different subtypes (which wouldn't surprise me, since WotC has been on a "subtype matters" kick for three years now, and the only card type not to be affected in a major way so far is lands.)
Perhaps an illustrative example would help:
Mountain A -------> "Nerf Forge", subtype "Land - Warriors' Guild"
Mountain B -------> "Fugh Alley", subtype "Land - Thieves' Guild"
Plains A -------> "Gram Barracks", subtype "Land - Warriors' Guild"
Swamp A -------> "Yerp Tunnels", subtype "Land - Thieves' Guild"
The lands could all simply have "TAP: Add C to your mana pool" (C being whatever single color the land was for) just like the basic lands.
Again, sorry for the words, but I've learned that it pays to be specific and complete when describing an unconventional idea to a large audience.
Let's take the example further now. They always have four different arts for each basic land. So can we assume each color gets four "guild" lands?
"Mountain" A: Taps for R, counts as Guild A
"Mountain" B: Taps for R, counts as Guild B
And so forth. So with this possible setup we can have, let's say guilds a-e, or even more but let's just stick with 5, that's easiest. That way, there is one guild that each color is denied access to. Or better yet, say each color only gets three guilds: it's only unique one and then 2 that it shares with allies(or enemies, depending on how we think the multicolor will go). That however leaves the fourth spot open for what? Another guild? Who knows.
Regardless, your theory stands that we will ONLY have these four different land verions that will "take over" where basic lands used to go and that we will still have the common cycle of lands as well, correct?
This is a very interesting theory. You could still do mono-color control, you have access to at LEAST 20 lands that produce your colored mana but you wouldn't be taking FULL advantage of the guild types. Sure, Red may have some warrior guild cards and a warrior guild land, but so does black. And maybe even green. And guess what? They have basic guild lands as well, which encourages you to play multi-color.
If true, this would be VERY cool indeed. A Land set...who would've thunk it?:biggrin3:
sounds like we are getting a blue block
Did you not read the part just one paragraph lower than that where he says that they need to avoid using game terms as codenames so people don't come to inaccurate conclusions like "Control must be the control block!"
Also, did you not read his article last wek where he talked about how blue isn't done sucking yet?
Until Friday, the craziness will be substantially less than Aprilly Foolish (For those without a calendar, Friday is April 1st). In other words, anything done on April Fools doesn't count, and should not be referenced as evidence for anything.
Now, let's look at the very same quote you quoted and take a look at what you missed:
The bolded part is the important bit. That's what he's talking about when he says he almost spilled the beans. He started to say what it revolved around, that's all. There's nothing about blue, nothing about control, nothing about reseting, and certainly nothing about music or sandwiches.
Okay, the whole thing revolves around… creature sub-types, also known as classes.
It could be anything. Maybe it's things that have controls.
Anyway, I hope there are gold cards.
Puke!
Gawd, I hope not.
Well, they can't satisfy everyone.
Curious - what would be an 'acceptable' theme for you?
Not one that they just did two years ago.
But, to answer your question in more detail, here are some, what was it... 'acceptable' themes? From my perspective:
1. Multicolor. It's been long enough for this one to get another go. It would need new, non-Invasion mechanics, of course, and preferably a focus on 5-color rather than just allied / opposing colors.
2. Lands. As I've said, in many ways.
3. Phases / turns - they've never really investigated the "time" aspect of the game, excepting the occasional blue rare. They could do a block that really cracked open issues of timing. Note: I believe that, at some point in the near future, "instant" will become either a supertype for other cards ("Instant Sorcery", "Instant Creature"), or a keyword mechanic, and cease being its own card type. A set like this would be the time to do it.
4. Hand / library - what I believe Onslaught was going to be before they stepped in at the 11th hour with a bunch of new mechanics, and the "tribal" theme (reference Amplify, which was originally one of their big block mechanics, and note how Cycling ended up in the set despite the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with the tribal theme). I think that WotC decided that they needed to let these ideas mature for a few years before they tried them again. So, eventually, I think we'll see it.
5. Enchantments. Not like Urza's block, of course. While I'm making big predictions, I'll predict that, at some point, there will be no more global enchantments printed. Either that, or they will come up with new rules to make global enchantments significantly different in the way they work than just being continuous / poly artifacts with a color.
Out of all of those, I only think that the first two are likely to happen in Ravnica. I hope that answers your question.
That would be, quite simply, disgusting. Interrupt was removed to clearup the game rules, making instant a supertype doesn't do anything to fix the rules at all and only helps to clear up a couple of lines of wording on a very small number of cards and takes additional space of the card type box. Just look at Masako the Humorless and tell me that Instant as a supertype would fit in there. It does nothing of concequence to change something like that, other than to make that particular box more cluttered than it needs to be.
The Multicolor thing would be cool, and welcomed. re: Invasion, I would say that (apart from all the the allied-color thing) they did have some 5-color type stuff there....the Domain spells come to mind. ("This spell deals/gains/etc X, where X is number of basic lands you control...") They've also done Sunburst, which was a nice 5-color-focused mechanic. Not sure what they'd have left to try...but then again, I don't work in R&D. A return to Kickers would be supreme....one of the best mechanics they've ever done, imho, but I'm sure they'll find an excuse to cram yet [i]another[/i] under-explored, under-flexible mechanic down our throats like most of the recent garbage. I wish they'd quit introducing quite so many keyword abilities....and just focus on one GOOD one and actually flesh it out (like they did w/Kicker).
Sorry...no Instant Sorceries please... An expansion that messed around with timing could interesting. The last one the (kinda) did was Phasing, and that's definitely one of the trickier mechanics so far.
My .02¢
EDIT: Also...the 'Time' aspect of Blue is one of the things [i]mostly[i/] limited to blue, and it's those cards that are definitely one of the reasons Blue has been so ridiculously overpowered over the years. Name me a non-Blue-involved combo that gives you infinite turns? or similar effect? Doubt they'd stop the well-documented hosing of blue to design an entire block that would require extensive development of one of the most powerful/abusable aspects of that color.
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