And I like to see all blue honourable good guys, but that's defenitly never going to happen, whahaha:D..
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
Actually, the Godzilla thing is a very good point. It wouldn't be difficult at all for Wizards to make a block about some random plane being menaced by the sudden appearance of some sort of enormous non-sentient monster than doesn't realize/understand/care it's hurting people/destroying civilization/whatever. It wouldn't be doing it on purpose so it wouldn't be evil, but it would still be the villain the heroes have to defeat. I'm thinking kind of Shadow of the Colossus here.
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Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
If all the elves were doing was imposing their green system on others, then it would be mono-green evil. The only problem is that the system they are imposing is a system that has a good dash of black to it.
The idea of a society based on being physicaly perfect or death feels very black to me, but the groupness of it feels green or white, so it isn't mono-black. The witch hunt feel of someone being able to pont at you and proclame you unfit to live also feels black to me. The beauty aspect feels more green than white to me; combine that with the black aspects and you get Black/Green. Also keep in mind that diversity in appearance is more natural that everyone being physicaly perfect, so the cultivation of a "perfect" group feels like black/white or black/green. The idea of a perfect group feels more black/green than black/white (which should be more about the selfish group imo) to me, so we still end at Black/Green for the evil elves of Lorwyn.
I'd just like to point out that the "physical perfection or death" and the proclamation of "unfit to live" thing is not actually very black. Like, at all. Killing is not automatically black, although it may do it most often in gameplay. Green is the color most focused on "destiny," or at the very least the idea that your position in the world comes to you naturally and regardless of your desires, which is what so frequently throws it into conflict with blue and black, the colors based on the idea that anyone can become whatever they want to be, if they choose to reach for it. It is a slight stretch, but not a terribly significant one, for green to kill those who are not born with superior features; after all, why let the ugly or weak live when the beautiful and the strong fill the same niche? Think of it as Survival of the Fittest, except sped up by those in charge: If a niche is fought for in the wild, the stronger race will live while the others competing for that niche will become extinct. I think that these "evil elves" understand this process, and equate their judgement to the "will" of nature. The elves might declare someone unfit to live, but only because the position they would fill in the tribe/clan/group is already filled by someone who they believe is superior. It is not a stretch at all for the elves to treat those believed to be born inferior with disdain, delegating questionable tasks to them, or using them as "cannon fodder" to protect those born as superiors who are more beneficial to the greater good or nature, or "perfects."
I agree, though, I would love to see a clearly mono-green villian some time, if for no other reason than novilty. I haven't followed the stories realy, but has there ever been a mono-red villian?
Honestly, I would say that these elves ARE clearly mono-green, if one were to read the articles Wizards has written on Green's flavor, but I respect the fact that I may be wrong. Wizards seems to want them in green/black, which I feel is remarkably stupid and stuborn of them, and I certainly hope that I'm wrong and that they print most of the "evil elves" in green with a small number of black elves, including the protaganist, who believe in the individual and the strength of choice and change. Of course, I doubt Wizards would do this.
However, I would like to point out that there are more than a few green baddies running around outside of Magic. While MaRo put her in GB, I think that Poison Ivy from Batman is a very mono-green character. Most militant environmentalists strike me as mono-green. As stated, Godzilla is pretty mono-green. For you anime fans, I would probably say that Scar (from Full Metal Alchemist) is green, although a case could be made for him being green-red (and also, for him not being evil). They are not non-existant: they can just be hard to find.
Edit- Woo! Idea!
The Lorwyn elves remind me of the Simic. They both want to take nature and tinker with it. The difference now is why they tinker. The Simic tinkered for knowledge. The Lorwyn Elves tinker for power. Creating a society and hierarchy based on fear, vanity, and manipulation feels very black with a touch of green for the group-ness of it.
Now, this is all about my outlook, but physical perfection is a very selfish ideal. Thats not to say that it is a bad ideal, but it is, by its nature, selfish; it is all about you, the individual. Black is the color of the individual. Forcing that on others too seems even more black to me.
Er... What makes you think that they do what they do for power? From what I can tell, they do it because they believe that their judgement is equal to the natural order. I don't think they want to create fear: They want people to respect the position nature and fate gave them. Vanity is only really that black if a person seeks it in order to further their own position: It seems that these elves only want the best and most beautiful, those favored by fate and nature, to be in power, which seems green to me. And I'm not entirely certain what it is that they are manipulating.
Physical perfection is only black if the individual SEEKS it, as a means to further their own position. In mono-green evil, the group would probably see the ugly or physically imperfect as unfavored and undesired by nature; a weak link in the evolutionary cycle, perhaps. It would be green to prop up those believed to be born superior, as that is the position that found them, and weed out or effectively enslave those who are believed to be born inferior, as that is the position nature gave them.
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Just had to post that scar is not green in any way nor is he a villian. He is the perfect deffinition of a white red character
Edit: I just thought of a way green could be evil. What if there was a race designed to slaves of another race and green took active measures to enforce this system rather then allow the slave race to gain thier freedom.
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I think someone here already has linked to a Ask Wizards about where Magicstands as to what color/s are predisposed to evil. From the answer given it goes B>W>U>R>G. They also add that sentience plays a factor when G becomes evil (i.e. militant environmentalists vs a wild creature hunting to survive).
I think the reason for Lorwyn's elves to become G/B is that they are actively seeking to impose their superiority. The inquest article describes them as "genocidal"...this means they want to exterminate those that might threaten their position. The novel also hints at their descriminative and oppressive nature. I think they don't enslave the imperfects, they eliminate them (that is why the protagonist is on the run). I think the Lorwyn elves are cleaning and improving their gene pool by removing the imperfects from it - that seems to me a very active approach to imposing survival of the fittest thus making them evool...
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Just had to post that scar is not green in any way nor is he a villian. He is the perfect deffinition of a white red character
As I said, he's not really a villain, although he DOES run around killing effectively innocent people because they perform what he considers to be a godless art, which I would consider "evil ". However, would you like to explain WHY he's White/Red? He might be in the Manga, which I haven't read, but in the series, there is little, if anything, White about him, and what white he does have is completely shared with green, which also covers the nature of Scar and the people of Ishbal. He accepts his exile status because he, like the other Ishballans, dislike Alchemy because it "changes and warps the gifts that their god has given them." He hated his brother for using this forbidden art, and turning his back on the traditional ways of Ishbal and cursing him with the same world-warping power. His method of murder is driven by instinct and is also very mechanically green (Think "Basilisk" ability). I could see red very easily, as vengeance seems to be a primary motive for his slaughter of Alchemists, but seeing as he goes out of his way to not only kill those responsible for the Ishbal Massacre, but all of the alchemists turning their backs on his God, I think the argument could also be very mono-green. He also seems more than willing to blindly fall into the role that fate or nature has given him. All of these things lead me to believe that he is green. If you would like to explain how I am wrong, I would be glad to hear it, but as it stands, I would say that he is not even a little bit white, very green, and possibly red.
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I think the reason for Lorwyn's elves to become G/B is that they are actively seeking to impose their superiority. The inquest article describes them as "genocidal"...this means they want to exterminate those that might threaten their position. The novel also hints at their descriminative and oppressive nature. I think they don't enslave the imperfects, they eliminate them (that is why the protagonist is on the run). I think the Lorwyn elves are cleaning and improving their gene pool by removing the imperfects from it - that seems to me a very active approach to imposing survival of the fittest thus making them evool...
But I don't think they're performing genocide to protect their position: I think they are performing it because they believe that it is their contribution to natural selection. They cleanse their own race of imperfects, but as far as they can tell, they are those which will dominate in the eventual circle of life. And it's not really a stretch for green to kill those which don't belong in the natural cycle; as I said, they're just speeding up natural selection. Really, nothing there screams black to me, aside from the killing, which ANY color will do. Green is just the least prone to it. But all of the colors are prone to violence; it is their motivations, in my opinion, that make them the colors that they are. Black kills to further its own position. Blue kills because it blurs the lines of right and wrong, and is willing to kill for the sake of progress or sacrifice pawns to further its knowledge. Red kills because Red's emotions frequently get the best of it, and its recklessness can destroy those around it. White kills for peace and order. Green kills those who it sees as turning their backs on the natural order and those who it needs to to survive. Or, in what I think might be the case with Lorwyn, those who it feels nature would weed out anyway.
you guys might want to open a "Fullmetal Alchemist" debate thread in the debate forum, but for now could you not post this crap on a rumor mill thread about new Lorwyn info from Inquest #149.
i bet theres even some Blood elves and other warcraft looking stuff in Lorwyn
Warcraft bit off MtG now MtG bits off Warcraft
what a combo, i wonder if the 2 companies are in cahoots
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Here's Jonny
a piece of my soul, through poetic sows.
The tides of fate procreate disaster
and awakens thy master
the gates explode and the seals anulled
between the dust lyes a fold
of unimaginal minds untold
i duress in death's caress
where the unknow take hold
Through a portal of the past
I regress past a river blazing cold
you guys might want to open a "Fullmetal Alchemist" debate thread in the debate forum, but for now could you not post this crap on a rumor mill thread about new Lorwyn info from Inquest #149.
While I would understand your distaste if that were all that was being discussed, I would like to point out that this is part of the discussion of Green in Lorwyn, and whether or not it has capability of evil. Also, you may have posted before I edited my post to include the next comment, which would be completely understandable.
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But I don't think they're performing genocide to protect their position: I think they are performing it because they believe that it is their contribution to natural selection. They cleanse their own race of imperfects, but as far as they can tell, they are those which will dominate in the eventual circle of life. And it's not really a stretch for green to kill those which don't belong in the natural cycle; as I said, they're just speeding up natural selection. Really, nothing there screams black to me, aside from the killing, which ANY color will do. Green is just the least prone to it. But all of the colors are prone to violence; it is their motivations, in my opinion, that make them the colors that they are. Black kills to further its own position. Blue kills because it blurs the lines of right and wrong, and is willing to kill for the sake of progress or sacrifice pawns to further its knowledge. Red kills because Red's emotions frequently get the best of it, and its recklessness can destroy those around it. White kills for peace and order. Green kills those who it sees as turning their backs on the natural order and those who it needs to to survive. Or, in what I think might be the case with Lorwyn, those who it feels nature would weed out anyway.
But what constitutes as not belonging to the natural cycle? IMO, literally manipulating something (i.e. genetically modified vegetables) does not belong to the natural cycle of evolution. However being born albino, or in rare cases having multiple limbs without outside manipulation can also be natural in nature - just a result of a bad gene pool. That being said, mutation is also nature's way of adaptation though it takes far longer time for the mutation to become the norm compared to the laboratorically induced ones.
In cotext with the Lorwyn elves, what makes them evil or at least aligned / predisposed to black is not the killing. It never was about the killing. It's about why they are doing it. If the reasons are for superiority / dominion then that is a very black trait since black want to further itself. Green is the passive color and usually it embodes let nature take its course. Green, from what the Ask Wizard reply, states that green will be evil if it consciously (meaning requires sentient thought) and actively promotes the natural order. And from what you are saying, they believe they are the chosen ones of nature and are just ensuring their birthright through genocide (genocide of just the imperfects or of anyone they view as a threat is still unknown though). That is an active and sentient act in the elves part (making them green evil) and it also serves to furthers their race at the expense of others (a pretty black motivation/concept)
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But what constitutes as not belonging to the natural cycle? IMO, literally manipulating something (i.e. genetically modified vegetables) does not belong to the natural cycle of evolution. However being born albino, or in rare cases having multiple limbs without outside manipulation can also be natural in nature - just a result of a bad gene pool. That being said, mutation is also nature's way of adaptation though it takes far longer time for the mutation to become the norm compared to the laboratorically induced ones.
Ah, but herein lies a conflict within the color of green. First, yes, being born Albino is natural. However, when something like that happens in the wild, the albino/mutant/whatever is seldom long for the world. The way these elves roll, they just get right to it and kill those they believe unfit to survive in the wilds, rather than waste the time to test their other abilities.
But yes, mutation is natural. But green has more going for it than the natural order. Green is ALSO the color most about tradition, and the color least about trying new things. I imagine that a truly green baddy would see a mutant, consider it a freak and imperfect (as it is new and different from those which it believes inherently superior), and promptly kill it. Yes, green is the color of natural order, but green's distrust of the new may disrupt the natural order more than any other factor.
In cotext with the Lorwyn elves, what makes them evil or at least aligned / predisposed to black is not the killing. It never was about the killing. It's about why they are doing it. If the reasons are for superiority / dominion then that is a very black trait since black want to further itself. Green is the passive color and usually it embodes let nature take its course. Green, from what the Ask Wizard reply, states that green will be evil if it consciously (meaning requires sentient thought) and actively promotes the natural order. And from what you are saying, they believe they are the chosen ones of nature and are just ensuring their birthright through genocide (genocide of just the imperfects or of anyone they view as a threat is still unknown though). That is an active and sentient act in the elves part (making them green evil) and it also serves to furthers their race at the expense of others (a pretty black motivation/concept)
But I don't think they are furthering their race because it is their race: I think that they are furthering their race because they truly believe that it is what nature's course will cause. Look at it this way: The natural order has to take free will into account. Maybe it's less important than other factors, but it IS a factor. After all, what good is it to be the best race, the race naturally fitted to be the best at everything, if you aren't acting on your superiority? I imagine that these elves looked at the world (with the rivers like they are, it seems that everything is connected...) and decided that they were naturally the best race. Then, they decided that instead of waiting for everything to catch up, they'd attempt to cleanse those races that are inferior: Instead of waiting for the other races to realize that the elves filled every niche, they would show them that they were those nature "chose."
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I did post before you edited, but the discussion you were having about the alchemist character still seems like it didn't belong on this thread. With the other comment on the same reply however, I can't Condemn the discussion any further.
Yodafan, you make many good points. I thought I read somewhere, I wish I remembered where, that the Elves are trying to be the dominant race. It may not have actualy said that and I might be interpreting it wrong. The thing about Beauty or Death that doesn't feel green to me is that I feel green may outcast or cast down the inferior person, but let nature kill them if that is what was meant to happen. The idea of the Elves bringing judgement and death for something as arbetrary and impractical as beauty feels less green to me. If green was going to go for fittest survival it would be speed, and strength, and other atributes that give you an edge in the wild. Beauty just seems too weird and pointless an ideal for something like this.
It is hard, though. We both feel different ways, and I do see where your comming from, and for the most part I agree with you. I wish I didn't have to run to work so I could put togeather a better formulated point, but c'est la vie.
I could see a mono-green villian who destroys civilization and maybe even goes so far as to kill all life just to wipe the slate clean and let nature rebuild. Green "evil" doesn't have to be all Godzillas and such. Green can be fully sentient and still evil.
In nature beauty is often corralated to strength and health. For example healthier animals have shinier coats, clear eyes, and fewer parasites. Sickly and weak animals... well not so much. Watch the Family Guy clip: Tag for sick cats for further demostrations.
I get the feeling that these elves are an extreme aspect of green. Think survival of the fittest being pushed to survival of the perfect, and only the perfect. In pursuit of this perfection the elves are willing to cull the weak for the good of the population. If American culture has proven anything its that if you leave the less desirable alone they will breed.
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....Wait, I'm a LEFTIE!!!
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
In nature beauty is often corralated to strength and health. For example healthier animals have shinier coats, clear eyes, and fewer parasites. Sickly and weak animals... well not so much. Watch the Family Guy clip: Tag for sick cats for further demostrations.
I get the feeling that these elves are an extreme aspect of green. Think survival of the fittest being pushed to survival of the perfect, and only the perfect. In pursuit of this perfection the elves are willing to cull the weak for the good of the population. If American culture has proven anything its that if you leave the less desirable alone they will breed.
Again, very good points are made. I guess the elves could be mono-green. I don't realy have any other reasons that I can think of for them to be black/green except that they just feel black/green to me. Now, when we get more info on Lorwyn we may find a concrete answer as to why they are multi-color and not just green, or we may find that they realy should have been green alone. For now though, I guess I am just going to be stubborn and stupid and stick by the fact that to me they feel black/green and I don't know why.
You two made very good arguments, though, and I can definately see why they would be green. It was nice having a good well thoughtout discussion on a web board. Thanks.
Again, very good points are made. I guess the elves could be mono-green. I don't realy have any other reasons that I can think of for them to be black/green except that they just feel black/green to me. Now, when we get more info on Lorwyn we may find a concrete answer as to why they are multi-color and not just green, or we may find that they realy should have been green alone. For now though, I guess I am just going to be stubborn and stupid and stick by the fact that to me they feel black/green and I don't know why.
You two made very good arguments, though, and I can definately see why they would be green. It was nice having a good well thoughtout discussion on a web board. Thanks.
Actually, the more I think about it, I think that there WILL be Black and Green Elves, but there will be no black-green elves. It seems to me that the book's protaganist is a pretty black character on the run from a green world, and the cover art seems to support that theory a little. Maybe there will be a few of these "elf outcasts," on the run from their green brethern (the clear majority of elves). Of course, I could be wrong, but I think that that would be a much better way for Wizards to handle elfishness. Maybe give the elves nifty abilities that interact with enemy elves in a unique way...?
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I don't think a tribal theme can support a sub-theme of a tribe hosing itself in any way - it's contraproductive and certainly not the reason Wizards spread tribes over multiple colors.
Having a tribal theme means more than just, have a large number of creatures belonging to one race or another. A tribal theme means that being part of that race is relevant that blocks mechanics. TSP had a lot of slivers, humans, and thallids, but it's is clearly not a tribal block. So far we have more rumor support of other themes, and the addition of the new card probably being Planeswaler makes me think that Lorwyn will not be tribally themed, but will have several prevelent races.
EDIT: I just read the passages about mono-green can't be a villian discussion.. Two Words Poison Ivy.
Green: (values nature) check
white: (values order and society) non-check
Blue: (values knowledge and control) non-check
Red: (values emotion, and chaos) non-check
Black (values self and power) non-check
Evil (even at the cost of human lives, and remorseless) check
Where is the picture located?
Edit: A green villian (DnD does this so easy) is a Druid. How? The forest is all the druid cares about so it protects it at any costs. Lets say this forest was magical and lived of the life force other non-green people. You just got yourselves a whole slew of green bad guys. Green defends natural orders so as long as the natural order kills things than Green characters can follow suite.
RnD during Time Spiral:
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN! CELEB
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I'd just like to point out that the "physical perfection or death" and the proclamation of "unfit to live" thing is not actually very black. Like, at all. Killing is not automatically black, although it may do it most often in gameplay. Green is the color most focused on "destiny," or at the very least the idea that your position in the world comes to you naturally and regardless of your desires, which is what so frequently throws it into conflict with blue and black, the colors based on the idea that anyone can become whatever they want to be, if they choose to reach for it. It is a slight stretch, but not a terribly significant one, for green to kill those who are not born with superior features; after all, why let the ugly or weak live when the beautiful and the strong fill the same niche? Think of it as Survival of the Fittest, except sped up by those in charge: If a niche is fought for in the wild, the stronger race will live while the others competing for that niche will become extinct. I think that these "evil elves" understand this process, and equate their judgement to the "will" of nature. The elves might declare someone unfit to live, but only because the position they would fill in the tribe/clan/group is already filled by someone who they believe is superior. It is not a stretch at all for the elves to treat those believed to be born inferior with disdain, delegating questionable tasks to them, or using them as "cannon fodder" to protect those born as superiors who are more beneficial to the greater good or nature, or "perfects."
Honestly, I would say that these elves ARE clearly mono-green, if one were to read the articles Wizards has written on Green's flavor, but I respect the fact that I may be wrong. Wizards seems to want them in green/black, which I feel is remarkably stupid and stuborn of them, and I certainly hope that I'm wrong and that they print most of the "evil elves" in green with a small number of black elves, including the protaganist, who believe in the individual and the strength of choice and change. Of course, I doubt Wizards would do this.
However, I would like to point out that there are more than a few green baddies running around outside of Magic. While MaRo put her in GB, I think that Poison Ivy from Batman is a very mono-green character. Most militant environmentalists strike me as mono-green. As stated, Godzilla is pretty mono-green. For you anime fans, I would probably say that Scar (from Full Metal Alchemist) is green, although a case could be made for him being green-red (and also, for him not being evil). They are not non-existant: they can just be hard to find.
Er... What makes you think that they do what they do for power? From what I can tell, they do it because they believe that their judgement is equal to the natural order. I don't think they want to create fear: They want people to respect the position nature and fate gave them. Vanity is only really that black if a person seeks it in order to further their own position: It seems that these elves only want the best and most beautiful, those favored by fate and nature, to be in power, which seems green to me. And I'm not entirely certain what it is that they are manipulating.
Physical perfection is only black if the individual SEEKS it, as a means to further their own position. In mono-green evil, the group would probably see the ugly or physically imperfect as unfavored and undesired by nature; a weak link in the evolutionary cycle, perhaps. It would be green to prop up those believed to be born superior, as that is the position that found them, and weed out or effectively enslave those who are believed to be born inferior, as that is the position nature gave them.
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
Edit: I just thought of a way green could be evil. What if there was a race designed to slaves of another race and green took active measures to enforce this system rather then allow the slave race to gain thier freedom.
High Mage of Frontier Knowledge in the [Izzet] clan:symru: Want to know the secret to chaos Click Here
I think the reason for Lorwyn's elves to become G/B is that they are actively seeking to impose their superiority. The inquest article describes them as "genocidal"...this means they want to exterminate those that might threaten their position. The novel also hints at their descriminative and oppressive nature. I think they don't enslave the imperfects, they eliminate them (that is why the protagonist is on the run). I think the Lorwyn elves are cleaning and improving their gene pool by removing the imperfects from it - that seems to me a very active approach to imposing survival of the fittest thus making them evool...
....Wait, I'm a LEFTIE!!!
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As I said, he's not really a villain, although he DOES run around killing effectively innocent people because they perform what he considers to be a godless art, which I would consider "evil ". However, would you like to explain WHY he's White/Red? He might be in the Manga, which I haven't read, but in the series, there is little, if anything, White about him, and what white he does have is completely shared with green, which also covers the nature of Scar and the people of Ishbal. He accepts his exile status because he, like the other Ishballans, dislike Alchemy because it "changes and warps the gifts that their god has given them." He hated his brother for using this forbidden art, and turning his back on the traditional ways of Ishbal and cursing him with the same world-warping power. His method of murder is driven by instinct and is also very mechanically green (Think "Basilisk" ability). I could see red very easily, as vengeance seems to be a primary motive for his slaughter of Alchemists, but seeing as he goes out of his way to not only kill those responsible for the Ishbal Massacre, but all of the alchemists turning their backs on his God, I think the argument could also be very mono-green. He also seems more than willing to blindly fall into the role that fate or nature has given him. All of these things lead me to believe that he is green. If you would like to explain how I am wrong, I would be glad to hear it, but as it stands, I would say that he is not even a little bit white, very green, and possibly red.
But I don't think they're performing genocide to protect their position: I think they are performing it because they believe that it is their contribution to natural selection. They cleanse their own race of imperfects, but as far as they can tell, they are those which will dominate in the eventual circle of life. And it's not really a stretch for green to kill those which don't belong in the natural cycle; as I said, they're just speeding up natural selection. Really, nothing there screams black to me, aside from the killing, which ANY color will do. Green is just the least prone to it. But all of the colors are prone to violence; it is their motivations, in my opinion, that make them the colors that they are. Black kills to further its own position. Blue kills because it blurs the lines of right and wrong, and is willing to kill for the sake of progress or sacrifice pawns to further its knowledge. Red kills because Red's emotions frequently get the best of it, and its recklessness can destroy those around it. White kills for peace and order. Green kills those who it sees as turning their backs on the natural order and those who it needs to to survive. Or, in what I think might be the case with Lorwyn, those who it feels nature would weed out anyway.
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amazing sig by Le_Gambit over at [Æther]
Hooray for http://xkcd.com/ !!!
Players to avoid while playing on Magic Workstation due to blatant retardation:
JBall
i bet theres even some Blood elves and other warcraft looking stuff in Lorwyn
Warcraft bit off MtG now MtG bits off Warcraft
what a combo, i wonder if the 2 companies are in cahoots
a piece of my soul, through poetic sows.
The tides of fate procreate disaster
and awakens thy master
the gates explode and the seals anulled
between the dust lyes a fold
of unimaginal minds untold
i duress in death's caress
where the unknow take hold
Through a portal of the past
I regress past a river blazing cold
While I would understand your distaste if that were all that was being discussed, I would like to point out that this is part of the discussion of Green in Lorwyn, and whether or not it has capability of evil. Also, you may have posted before I edited my post to include the next comment, which would be completely understandable.
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
But what constitutes as not belonging to the natural cycle? IMO, literally manipulating something (i.e. genetically modified vegetables) does not belong to the natural cycle of evolution. However being born albino, or in rare cases having multiple limbs without outside manipulation can also be natural in nature - just a result of a bad gene pool. That being said, mutation is also nature's way of adaptation though it takes far longer time for the mutation to become the norm compared to the laboratorically induced ones.
In cotext with the Lorwyn elves, what makes them evil or at least aligned / predisposed to black is not the killing. It never was about the killing. It's about why they are doing it. If the reasons are for superiority / dominion then that is a very black trait since black want to further itself. Green is the passive color and usually it embodes let nature take its course. Green, from what the Ask Wizard reply, states that green will be evil if it consciously (meaning requires sentient thought) and actively promotes the natural order. And from what you are saying, they believe they are the chosen ones of nature and are just ensuring their birthright through genocide (genocide of just the imperfects or of anyone they view as a threat is still unknown though). That is an active and sentient act in the elves part (making them green evil) and it also serves to furthers their race at the expense of others (a pretty black motivation/concept)
....Wait, I'm a LEFTIE!!!
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
Ah, but herein lies a conflict within the color of green. First, yes, being born Albino is natural. However, when something like that happens in the wild, the albino/mutant/whatever is seldom long for the world. The way these elves roll, they just get right to it and kill those they believe unfit to survive in the wilds, rather than waste the time to test their other abilities.
But yes, mutation is natural. But green has more going for it than the natural order. Green is ALSO the color most about tradition, and the color least about trying new things. I imagine that a truly green baddy would see a mutant, consider it a freak and imperfect (as it is new and different from those which it believes inherently superior), and promptly kill it. Yes, green is the color of natural order, but green's distrust of the new may disrupt the natural order more than any other factor.
But I don't think they are furthering their race because it is their race: I think that they are furthering their race because they truly believe that it is what nature's course will cause. Look at it this way: The natural order has to take free will into account. Maybe it's less important than other factors, but it IS a factor. After all, what good is it to be the best race, the race naturally fitted to be the best at everything, if you aren't acting on your superiority? I imagine that these elves looked at the world (with the rivers like they are, it seems that everything is connected...) and decided that they were naturally the best race. Then, they decided that instead of waiting for everything to catch up, they'd attempt to cleanse those races that are inferior: Instead of waiting for the other races to realize that the elves filled every niche, they would show them that they were those nature "chose."
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
amazing sig by Le_Gambit over at [Æther]
Hooray for http://xkcd.com/ !!!
Players to avoid while playing on Magic Workstation due to blatant retardation:
JBall
It is hard, though. We both feel different ways, and I do see where your comming from, and for the most part I agree with you. I wish I didn't have to run to work so I could put togeather a better formulated point, but c'est la vie.
I could see a mono-green villian who destroys civilization and maybe even goes so far as to kill all life just to wipe the slate clean and let nature rebuild. Green "evil" doesn't have to be all Godzillas and such. Green can be fully sentient and still evil.
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My Have/Want list (MTGO)
In nature beauty is often corralated to strength and health. For example healthier animals have shinier coats, clear eyes, and fewer parasites. Sickly and weak animals... well not so much. Watch the Family Guy clip: Tag for sick cats for further demostrations.
I get the feeling that these elves are an extreme aspect of green. Think survival of the fittest being pushed to survival of the perfect, and only the perfect. In pursuit of this perfection the elves are willing to cull the weak for the good of the population. If American culture has proven anything its that if you leave the less desirable alone they will breed.
They revealed that Wayne Reynold's Swamp and Mountain Art is actually a single mural.
Going by artist, the land pairing previously posted were correct:
RW - Flamekin/Elementals
RB - Boggart precon
GU - Fae???
GB - Elves precon
WU - Merrow/merfolk precon
....Wait, I'm a LEFTIE!!!
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
Again, very good points are made. I guess the elves could be mono-green. I don't realy have any other reasons that I can think of for them to be black/green except that they just feel black/green to me. Now, when we get more info on Lorwyn we may find a concrete answer as to why they are multi-color and not just green, or we may find that they realy should have been green alone. For now though, I guess I am just going to be stubborn and stupid and stick by the fact that to me they feel black/green and I don't know why.
You two made very good arguments, though, and I can definately see why they would be green. It was nice having a good well thoughtout discussion on a web board. Thanks.
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Actually, the more I think about it, I think that there WILL be Black and Green Elves, but there will be no black-green elves. It seems to me that the book's protaganist is a pretty black character on the run from a green world, and the cover art seems to support that theory a little. Maybe there will be a few of these "elf outcasts," on the run from their green brethern (the clear majority of elves). Of course, I could be wrong, but I think that that would be a much better way for Wizards to handle elfishness. Maybe give the elves nifty abilities that interact with enemy elves in a unique way...?
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.
Having a tribal theme means more than just, have a large number of creatures belonging to one race or another. A tribal theme means that being part of that race is relevant that blocks mechanics. TSP had a lot of slivers, humans, and thallids, but it's is clearly not a tribal block. So far we have more rumor support of other themes, and the addition of the new card probably being Planeswaler makes me think that Lorwyn will not be tribally themed, but will have several prevelent races.
EDIT: I just read the passages about mono-green can't be a villian discussion.. Two Words Poison Ivy.
Green: (values nature) check
white: (values order and society) non-check
Blue: (values knowledge and control) non-check
Red: (values emotion, and chaos) non-check
Black (values self and power) non-check
Evil (even at the cost of human lives, and remorseless) check
The secret to Lorwyn? The "immersive insiight into the Lorwyn setting"?
From today's Magic Arcana,
"Lay your Wayne Reynolds Swamp next to your Wayne Reynolds Mountain, and you might get a surprise."
Go to that site. Look at the Mountain.
It's just a bunch of rocks. Right next to the swamp, which is itself barely a pond.
Lorwyn is a world of Lilliputians!!!
(from Gulliver's Travels. I mean small people.)
*~*~*~
Guys, of course Green can be a villain. If you're Blue, Green is a villain. End of story.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
UGThe Simic would like to have a word, Biograft and, Plax injection with you
I can easily imagine them as evil
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
Edit: A green villian (DnD does this so easy) is a Druid. How? The forest is all the druid cares about so it protects it at any costs. Lets say this forest was magical and lived of the life force other non-green people. You just got yourselves a whole slew of green bad guys. Green defends natural orders so as long as the natural order kills things than Green characters can follow suite.
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN!
CELEB
It's the Lorwyn book cover. Shaky evidence, at best, but the art certainly seems somewhat black to me.
Yodafan: Official pro of one of Magic’s most casual formats.