The distinction between "play a forest" and "whenever a forest comes into play" are important, since it is possible to land fetch out numerous Forests in a single turn.
This definitely means that either Green has more cards in the set (even if this is the FIRST green card, the other colors can only have 49 cards per color, which means if all colors are equal, there are massive 36 colorless cards that aren't basic land). Come on, with even 3 nonbasic land cycles, which we're unlikely to see, that's still 21 artifacts/multicolor (I'm counting from 301, with 302-306 as PWs), and that's MASSIVE for a set not based on artifacts/multicolor. Most sets have what, 10 artifacts? I think it's going to be 48 cards per color with 58 green cards, so 250 total colored cards based on this collector number. This leaves room for 31 cards, so maybe a few nonbasic land cycles and 5-10 multicolor cards and a few artifacts, depending on how many nonbasic lands we have.
I don't see 36 colorless cards as unreasonable. COK had 22 artifacts and 14 nonbasic lands, exactly the number of cards needed by your equation.
If tribal cards are going to be showing up, I'd expect them mostly to appear on artifacts and lands. Especially if WotC is trying to avoid the linearity that dampened Onslaught block, there will probably be a good number of tribal artifacts to guarantee modularity.
I wouldn't rule out a sprinkling (5-10) of multicolor cards, either.
This definitely means that either Green has more cards in the set (even if this is the FIRST green card, the other colors can only have 49 cards per color, which means if all colors are equal, there are massive 36 colorless cards that aren't basic land). Come on, with even 3 nonbasic land cycles, which we're unlikely to see, that's still 21 artifacts/multicolor (I'm counting from 301, with 302-306 as PWs), and that's MASSIVE for a set not based on artifacts/multicolor. Most sets have what, 10 artifacts? I think it's going to be 48 cards per color with 58 green cards, so 250 total colored cards based on this collector number. This leaves room for 31 cards, so maybe a few nonbasic land cycles and 5-10 multicolor cards and a few artifacts, depending on how many nonbasic lands we have.
Time Spiral had 47 cards of Multicolor/Artifact/Nonbasic lands.
36 is not a hard number to swallow at all. Time Spiral wasn't based on Artifacts or Multicolor. Let us assume that Lorwyn has few, if any gold cards, and 36 is still a reasonable number.
Don't count 302-306 as the Planeswalkers. We don't have any info pointing them as being outside the 301 cards at the moment.
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There's also the fact that we don't know just how many of those 36 are going to be Tribal-themed as well. We could get a Tribal Artifact - Elf/Treefolk that taps for G or something (for some reason I originally typed Treewood"...). In other words, it doesn't have to be colored to be aligned with whichever "tribe".
We're going to have our common/uncommon/rares that involve Evoke, Tribal, and whatever the "saucy" keyword action is that Aaron Forsythe hinted at when talking about them. (I don't think Evoke qualifies as a keyword action.)
Additionally, I would not be surprised to see hybrid G/ cards for the Elves, if they're apparently both.
Well, assuming the info is true, I expect a scan anytime now. A lot of stores will have these in stock now. Cookie crumbs for whoever posts the first good scan!
1/3 for 3, no thanks, sorry. But I do definitely LOVE treefolk and I'm glad to see them back in print. Heartwood Treefolk was sweet. Man, Tempest and Saga blocks were awesome for flavour and card power levels. I miss those blocks!
Of course, this guy can be 3/5 or even 5/7 if you do things right, but only on your turn. And no evasion. Still, solid limited common.
Treefolk spell would be the key word.
Tribal (the card type) will almost certainly make an appearance in the set due to that very specific wording.
Also, why is everyone so excited about having creature types attached to lands? (Which I personally don't see happening) Dryad Arbor isn't the most amazing thing ever...
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Not a super-powerful card but an OK dork for Limited... the real goodie here is "Treefolk spell". I'm very happy that Tribal might be coming back. I feel like Planeswalker is going to screw up Magic, but Tribal is really cool to me.
How are these promo commons usually sent out? To the stores or their distributors? If the stores themselves usually get them, I can probably grab a scan tomorrow if nobody has one up by then.
Speak for yourself. "Tribal" has always intrigued me more than "Planeswalker".
I have explained it in other threads, but the last time we had something like 'Tribal' done, it was a mess. ('Spiritcraft' and Arcane spells) Arcane spells could have been made tribal spirit spells, and it is the same functionality. (plus splice)
What arcane meant was loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the new subtype attached.
What Tribal can mean is loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the appropriate creature type attached.
Of course, set design has changed much since Kamigawa, but I don't like the concept of merging a Kamigawa block idea with the Onslaught Tribal model. (which I am not a fan of either)
Planeswalkers are going to actually change the game. They will require new rules, and provide players with the ability to do groundbreaking new things.
Tribal cards are going to change how tribal mechanics/decks are played. They require no new rules, and just allow your spells to 'count' for the tribe you are trying to amass or what have you.
I can (and would love to be) proven wrong by the set's contents/execution, of course. (Also, it should be noted that I am...always speaking for myself, I just am really really not a fan of the tribal theme)
To the above poster, the promo commons are usually sent out to the stores themselves. Considering the topic creator is from Seattle, homebase of WoTC, it makes sense that his store got the card first. We can expect other stores to receive it shortly.
I have explained it in other threads, but the last time we had something like 'Tribal' done, it was a mess. ('Spiritcraft' and Arcane spells) Arcane spells could have been made tribal spirit spells, and it is the same functionality. (plus splice)
What arcane meant was loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the new subtype attached.
What Tribal can mean is loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the appropriate creature type attached.
Of course, set design has changed much since Kamigawa, but I don't like the concept of merging a Kamigawa block idea with the Onslaught Tribal model. (which I am not a fan of either)
Planeswalkers are going to actually change the game. They will require new rules, and provide players with the ability to do groundbreaking new things.
Tribal cards are going to change how tribal mechanics/decks are played. They require no new rules, and just allow your spells to 'count' for the tribe you are trying to amass or what have you.
Off topic: I'm not sure if a separate thread has addressed this, but I don't understand how Tribal works besides being a supertype, like Bound in Silence. I do see how it works similarily to the way arcane spells and spiritcraft worked, but I don't see how a card could just have the type Tribal. I mean what would it do. Would it be a creature, since the only subtype it has is Rebel, or such, and if so how would it be different than a normal creature? Basically, artifact creatures, tribal enchantments, and artifacts all make sense, but I can't wrap my mind around a card that just has the type tribal. If someone can give me a quick answer or direct me to a thread where my question is addressed that would be greatly appreciated.
On topic: Finally, a treefolk that doesn't cost 5+ mana and has a toughness <3. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, i.e. the treefolk in FS who draws cards off noncreature spells, whose name I've just blanked on Heart-blah Treefolk, as well as others I'm not familiar with.) Also, decent in Limited, reminds of Coldsnap, where the more you pick up, the better they get, like Ripple, since they can pump each other.
Off topic: I'm not sure if a separate thread has addressed this, but I don't understand how Tribal works besides being a supertype, like Bound in Silence. I do see how it works similarily to the way arcane spells and spiritcraft worked, but I don't see how a card could just have the type Tribal. I mean what would it do. Would it be a creature, since the only subtype it has is Rebel, or such, and if so how would it be different than a normal creature? Basically, artifact creatures, tribal enchantments, and artifacts all make sense, but I can't wrap my mind around a card that just has the type tribal. If someone can give me a quick answer or direct me to a thread where my question is addressed that would be greatly appreciated.
On topic: Finally, a treefolk that doesn't cost 5+ mana and has a toughness <3. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, i.e. the treefolk in FS who draws cards off noncreature spells, whose name I've just blanked on Heart-blah Treefolk, as well as others I'm not familiar with.) Also, decent in Limited, reminds of Coldsnap, where the more you pick up, the better they get, like Ripple, since they can pump each other.
There cannot be a card that is just tribal.
When people talk about tribal spells or tribal cards, they mean cards that are Tribal Instant, Tribal Enchantment, etc.
We do have some relevant treefolk in standard already, which is nice.
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I think the reason it says "treefolk spell" is so that a "Tribal Land-Treefolk Forest" would'nt give it +4/+4, but "Tribal Enchantment- Treefolk" or "Creature-Treefolk" can still give it +2/+2. Will there be a Treefolk forest, let me just say that I hope so.
I'm pretty sure it's mainly just for Treefolk tribal spells. Pretty sure.
urzassedatives, I don't think tribal implies subpar versions of normal spells. Sure that'll be the limited filler, but it means that spells that are really and seriously connected to a specific tribe can be mechanically linked there. It's like giving Snow to Frozen Solid. It worked so well, they just couldn't issue that kind of errata. The same way that Frozen Solid would be Snow if it were design in Coldsnap, Auras that could only be tribal in the flavour text can now have creature types.
Alivezombie: No card will ever have just the tribal type (unless you use Neurok Transmuter on a tribal artifact that's animated by March of the Machines). It's actually in the rules. Tribal is simply a construct that allows cards to have creature types without having the type creature.
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Well, assuming the info is true, I expect a scan anytime now. A lot of stores will have these in stock now. Cookie crumbs for whoever posts the first good scan!
1/3 for 3, no thanks, sorry. But I do definitely LOVE treefolk and I'm glad to see them back in print. Heartwood Treefolk was sweet. Man, Tempest and Saga blocks were awesome for flavour and card power levels. I miss those blocks!
Of course, this guy can be 3/5 or even 5/7 if you do things right, but only on your turn. And no evasion. Still, solid limited common.
I do miss that power level. I like this card more than the other one, shriekmaw.
I hope there won't be much artifacts, artifacts take stupid rare slots well they are most of the times crappy. Plus artifact without an artifact block are just plain useless.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
Treefolk spell would be the key word.
Tribal (the card type) will almost certainly make an appearance in the set due to that very specific wording.
This isn't really an indication that Tribal will make an appearance so much as future-proofing and aligning with the errata issued to anything that previously referred to a tribe of creatures. That being said, signs are certainly pointing to the debut (if you will) of Tribal in Lorwyn.
I don't get tribal either. Does it just mean you can have a creature type for a card that normally would not have a creature type (e.g., an instant or an enchantment)?
I don't get tribal either. Does it just mean you can have a creature type for a card that normally would not have a creature type (e.g., an instant or an enchantment)?
That is all it does.
It allows every card type to have a creature type, without the card counting as a creature. (While it counts as a 'Treefolk', 'Rebel', etc)
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To the above poster, the promo commons are usually sent out to the stores themselves. Considering the topic creator is from Seattle, homebase of WoTC, it makes sense that his store got the card first. We can expect other stores to receive it shortly.
The card store I hang out at is in Burien, which is a town right on the edge or Renton. Less that 10 minutes from the WotC headquarters.
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The same applies to:
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-Knowing English.
-Using phases.
-Countering spells.
<@MarkRosewater> THis is a secret we've carefully guarded but for this chat I'm going to spill the beans.
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I think this triggers off of Evoke too (as long as there are treefolk with Evoke, and it's not an elemental-only ability as some people suspect), which I find interesting. As a side note, I have been wondering whether Evoking a creature counts as playing it from your for (for the purposes of, say, Wild Pair). The wording makes me think it does, which could be fun.
I do like the card, and I'm excited about the possibility of tribal, although I do think Seds' caution is legitimate. If tribal cards tend to cost more than their type-less counter parts, then they'll be useless without other cards of the same type. Bound In Silence hints at this, although the bonuses gained out of being a rebel are fairly large compared to other creature types. Hopefully they'll cost tribal cards fairly aggressive, and not make them cost more than normal cards just for the creature type.
Quote from urzassedatives »
Also, why is everyone so excited about having creature types attached to lands? (Which I personally don't see happening) Dryad Arbor isn't the most amazing thing ever...
I don't find it that exciting, although I can almost imagine them doing tribal lands for all the creature types, similar to the artifact lands in Mirrodin. Without (presumably) a mechanic as powerful as infinity to break them in half though, they'd probably be a bit too boring. They also would be less vulnerable than artifact lands, which could go against the nothing strictly better than basics policy Aafo talked about last week. So I'm not necessarilly hoping for it, but i can kind of imagine it.
Quote from true heir »
The card itself will probably be good in limited, seeing as we now confirm treefolk as a type. I don't think this is going to be Onslaught block II, it'll be more like what Ravnica was for Invasion-- a better take on the original idea.
I definitely agree with this. The idea of Tribal cards would already make it less creature oriented than Onslaught block, but I expect more than that. I'm keeping my hopes up that they'll find a good way to do a creature type theme without it being like Kamigawa or Onslaught. The main thing I think they need to do is make creature types matter cards that aren't useless without many of that creature type. The problem with Kamigawa and Onslaught was that so many of the cards had no interaction with anything from other blocks. Given MaRo's incresing emphasis on intrablock design, I imagine that one of his big goals with Lorwyn has been how to make a creature type matters block that still interacts well with other blocks where creature types don't matter as much, and the same creature types aren't necessarilly there at all. If they pull that off, getting all the cool aspects and casual fun of Onslaught but avoiding the linearity, then this could be a great block. If not, then, wel, I still kind of enjoyed Onlsaught block, and hopefully it's still fun for the people who didn't.
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That is all it does.
It allows every card type to have a creature type, without the card counting as a creature. (While it counts as a 'Treefolk', 'Rebel', etc)
If that's all tribal can do, count me as a big non-fan. New gimmicks like that bother the hell out of me, partially because there's no good reason to mess with them when other useful things could be done, and partially because as the Frozen Solid/snow example pointed out, they can't go back and errata all old cards that under the new strandards "should have" been done that way. Example, Goblin Bombardment. Instead, they'll be forced to errata every card that mentions "Goblin" in the text box, making all those cards not only incorrect as printed, but needlessly clunky in their oracle text. Really, really sloppy decision by Wizards if what you say is true. Ugh. Add this to the massive list of bad decisions in the past few years.
That doesn't mean I don't like little mister treefolk
It depends how well they do it, with any luck they will only add it to things that make sense and work effectivly. It would really suck if they just start slapping creature types on everything.
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my first impression: this card looks like its tuned VERY well for draft. tribal archetypes in Lorwyn/Morningtide limited will probably be a very good strategy if this is the type of card we can expect to see.
my second impression: this is borderline constructed playable and will probably show up in a block constructed deck, and this is only a common. you might even see some very interesting cards for tribal synergy such as a Treefolk Forest non-basic land.
i like the card and i like what it implies. i disagree that this is a stupid gimmick, i think its deceptively deep when you really think about it. they've figured out a way to include an entirely new vector of relevant gameplay information on the cards without gunking them up too much or adding any new keywords.
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If tribal cards are going to be showing up, I'd expect them mostly to appear on artifacts and lands. Especially if WotC is trying to avoid the linearity that dampened Onslaught block, there will probably be a good number of tribal artifacts to guarantee modularity.
I wouldn't rule out a sprinkling (5-10) of multicolor cards, either.
Time Spiral had 47 cards of Multicolor/Artifact/Nonbasic lands.
36 is not a hard number to swallow at all. Time Spiral wasn't based on Artifacts or Multicolor. Let us assume that Lorwyn has few, if any gold cards, and 36 is still a reasonable number.
Don't count 302-306 as the Planeswalkers. We don't have any info pointing them as being outside the 301 cards at the moment.
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We're going to have our common/uncommon/rares that involve Evoke, Tribal, and whatever the "saucy" keyword action is that Aaron Forsythe hinted at when talking about them. (I don't think Evoke qualifies as a keyword action.)
Additionally, I would not be surprised to see hybrid G/ cards for the Elves, if they're apparently both.
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Speak for yourself. "Tribal" has always intrigued me more than "Planeswalker".
1/3 for 3, no thanks, sorry. But I do definitely LOVE treefolk and I'm glad to see them back in print. Heartwood Treefolk was sweet. Man, Tempest and Saga blocks were awesome for flavour and card power levels. I miss those blocks!
Of course, this guy can be 3/5 or even 5/7 if you do things right, but only on your turn. And no evasion. Still, solid limited common.
.
Treefolk spell would be the key word.
Tribal (the card type) will almost certainly make an appearance in the set due to that very specific wording.
Also, why is everyone so excited about having creature types attached to lands? (Which I personally don't see happening) Dryad Arbor isn't the most amazing thing ever...
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I have explained it in other threads, but the last time we had something like 'Tribal' done, it was a mess. ('Spiritcraft' and Arcane spells) Arcane spells could have been made tribal spirit spells, and it is the same functionality. (plus splice)
What arcane meant was loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the new subtype attached.
What Tribal can mean is loads of subpar versions of normal spells, with the appropriate creature type attached.
Of course, set design has changed much since Kamigawa, but I don't like the concept of merging a Kamigawa block idea with the Onslaught Tribal model. (which I am not a fan of either)
Planeswalkers are going to actually change the game. They will require new rules, and provide players with the ability to do groundbreaking new things.
Tribal cards are going to change how tribal mechanics/decks are played. They require no new rules, and just allow your spells to 'count' for the tribe you are trying to amass or what have you.
I can (and would love to be) proven wrong by the set's contents/execution, of course. (Also, it should be noted that I am...always speaking for myself, I just am really really not a fan of the tribal theme)
To the above poster, the promo commons are usually sent out to the stores themselves. Considering the topic creator is from Seattle, homebase of WoTC, it makes sense that his store got the card first. We can expect other stores to receive it shortly.
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And hey, Verdeloth will be able to boost something other than the saprolings he makes!
Off topic: I'm not sure if a separate thread has addressed this, but I don't understand how Tribal works besides being a supertype, like Bound in Silence. I do see how it works similarily to the way arcane spells and spiritcraft worked, but I don't see how a card could just have the type Tribal. I mean what would it do. Would it be a creature, since the only subtype it has is Rebel, or such, and if so how would it be different than a normal creature? Basically, artifact creatures, tribal enchantments, and artifacts all make sense, but I can't wrap my mind around a card that just has the type tribal. If someone can give me a quick answer or direct me to a thread where my question is addressed that would be greatly appreciated.
On topic: Finally, a treefolk that doesn't cost 5+ mana and has a toughness <3. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating, i.e. the treefolk in FS who draws cards off noncreature spells, whose name I've just blanked on Heart-blah Treefolk, as well as others I'm not familiar with.) Also, decent in Limited, reminds of Coldsnap, where the more you pick up, the better they get, like Ripple, since they can pump each other.
There cannot be a card that is just tribal.
When people talk about tribal spells or tribal cards, they mean cards that are Tribal Instant, Tribal Enchantment, etc.
We do have some relevant treefolk in standard already, which is nice.
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I'm pretty sure it's mainly just for Treefolk tribal spells. Pretty sure.
urzassedatives, I don't think tribal implies subpar versions of normal spells. Sure that'll be the limited filler, but it means that spells that are really and seriously connected to a specific tribe can be mechanically linked there. It's like giving Snow to Frozen Solid. It worked so well, they just couldn't issue that kind of errata. The same way that Frozen Solid would be Snow if it were design in Coldsnap, Auras that could only be tribal in the flavour text can now have creature types.
Alivezombie: No card will ever have just the tribal type (unless you use Neurok Transmuter on a tribal artifact that's animated by March of the Machines). It's actually in the rules. Tribal is simply a construct that allows cards to have creature types without having the type creature.
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I do miss that power level. I like this card more than the other one, shriekmaw.
I hope there won't be much artifacts, artifacts take stupid rare slots well they are most of the times crappy. Plus artifact without an artifact block are just plain useless.
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
This isn't really an indication that Tribal will make an appearance so much as future-proofing and aligning with the errata issued to anything that previously referred to a tribe of creatures. That being said, signs are certainly pointing to the debut (if you will) of Tribal in Lorwyn.
That is all it does.
It allows every card type to have a creature type, without the card counting as a creature. (While it counts as a 'Treefolk', 'Rebel', etc)
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The card store I hang out at is in Burien, which is a town right on the edge or Renton. Less that 10 minutes from the WotC headquarters.
I do like the card, and I'm excited about the possibility of tribal, although I do think Seds' caution is legitimate. If tribal cards tend to cost more than their type-less counter parts, then they'll be useless without other cards of the same type. Bound In Silence hints at this, although the bonuses gained out of being a rebel are fairly large compared to other creature types. Hopefully they'll cost tribal cards fairly aggressive, and not make them cost more than normal cards just for the creature type.
I don't find it that exciting, although I can almost imagine them doing tribal lands for all the creature types, similar to the artifact lands in Mirrodin. Without (presumably) a mechanic as powerful as infinity to break them in half though, they'd probably be a bit too boring. They also would be less vulnerable than artifact lands, which could go against the nothing strictly better than basics policy Aafo talked about last week. So I'm not necessarilly hoping for it, but i can kind of imagine it.
I definitely agree with this. The idea of Tribal cards would already make it less creature oriented than Onslaught block, but I expect more than that. I'm keeping my hopes up that they'll find a good way to do a creature type theme without it being like Kamigawa or Onslaught. The main thing I think they need to do is make creature types matter cards that aren't useless without many of that creature type. The problem with Kamigawa and Onslaught was that so many of the cards had no interaction with anything from other blocks. Given MaRo's incresing emphasis on intrablock design, I imagine that one of his big goals with Lorwyn has been how to make a creature type matters block that still interacts well with other blocks where creature types don't matter as much, and the same creature types aren't necessarilly there at all. If they pull that off, getting all the cool aspects and casual fun of Onslaught but avoiding the linearity, then this could be a great block. If not, then, wel, I still kind of enjoyed Onlsaught block, and hopefully it's still fun for the people who didn't.
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If that's all tribal can do, count me as a big non-fan. New gimmicks like that bother the hell out of me, partially because there's no good reason to mess with them when other useful things could be done, and partially because as the Frozen Solid/snow example pointed out, they can't go back and errata all old cards that under the new strandards "should have" been done that way. Example, Goblin Bombardment. Instead, they'll be forced to errata every card that mentions "Goblin" in the text box, making all those cards not only incorrect as printed, but needlessly clunky in their oracle text. Really, really sloppy decision by Wizards if what you say is true. Ugh. Add this to the massive list of bad decisions in the past few years.
That doesn't mean I don't like little mister treefolk
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my second impression: this is borderline constructed playable and will probably show up in a block constructed deck, and this is only a common. you might even see some very interesting cards for tribal synergy such as a Treefolk Forest non-basic land.
i like the card and i like what it implies. i disagree that this is a stupid gimmick, i think its deceptively deep when you really think about it. they've figured out a way to include an entirely new vector of relevant gameplay information on the cards without gunking them up too much or adding any new keywords.