Bingo. Why do non-creature spells have creature types? So far, the answer is "because sometimes it'll have an interaction with an old or new card that it shouldn't, but it's cool anyway".
So far I don't like them because they are not intuitive. At a glance, it looks like an aura that you would put on a giant (I realize it is an enchantment that interacts with the board).
How many cards will this enchantment enable? At what point does it become useless for it to have a type at all (of course WotC can say 'Never!' because they can continue to print tribal-giant enabling cards, but for our purposes if it doesnt play well in Lorwyn, it will seem like a waste)?
So far I don't like them because they are not intuitive. At a glance, it looks like an aura that you would put on a giant (I realize it is an enchantment that interacts with the board).
Yea.
Tribal auras are going to be a big source of disputes at the prerelease.
That may be right, I don't really want to think about it, but it certainly wasn't grammatically correct enough to be understandable (no flame intended)
This counter is "faster" than split second in that if you were to Wipe Away your Teferi, your opponent could un-morph Vesuvan Shapeshifter as Teferi, killing both by the legend rule before Wipe Away resolved. However, if you were to play this new counterspell returning Teferi as a cost, neither player gets priority between the time the spell is played and Teferi is returned to your hand, so your opponent wouldn't have time to kill it with Shapeshifter.
I hope that's a little more clear.
Ok, I know this is a technicality, but Split Second is only as fast as the spell its on. It's just an ability that says you can't respond with spells or non mana activated abilities.
Tribla cards (and anything else they decide to tack creature types onto) can have interesting interactions, such as that new Kithkin + the new Giant Enchantment, as well as Blightspeaker + Bound in Silence.
Going to make big "value" swings in Limited play. A certain, say, Treefolk spell (be it creature, instand, sorcery, enchantment, land, what have you) me be complete junk to you, but to someone else it makes the two Battlewand Treefolk they drafted +2/+2 bigger for the turn. (The same would go for any of the other tribes..) So now, not only do we have to value creatures within a color, for example, but also value them within a "tribe". These are going to be some fun drafts...;).
Cheers,
Austin
I'm not trying to be rude here, but I already drafted Kamigawa block.
The question we need to ask ourselves, and WOTC *should* have asked themselves, is if Tribal opens up design space or closes it.
Cons:
1. You can't have "splice onto creatures" anymore. You "could have", but now you can't. Personally, I think giving creatures I play another creature's "comes into play" ability seems rather cool. For example:
Treefolk Rooter 2G
Creature - Treefolk
Splice onto Treefolk G
This comes into play with a +1,+1 counter on it.
1/2
You'll note that Splice was a rather fun and innovative mechanic, and 187 creatures are fun... so printing something like the above would be a nice melding of the two. But Tribal takes that away. Closes off design space.
2. Confusing. Some people still think the giant enchantment is an aura that enchants giants...
3. massive erratta. So now apparently Mercenaries can tutor out tribal enchantments. I know, I know... Future Sight did it, but WOTC has blatently admitted that Future Sight is a flop. Now, I'm sure it's sold relatively well - about as well as any other "3rd set" has...
4. Counter intuitive interactions. Really, the mercenary I use to enslave people can also tutor out a mercenary land? Oh, and let's not get started on Goblin Matron being a spell-tutor now. Not cool. Oh, and out of flavor too. Red doesn't tutor for enchantments - tribal or otherwise.
5. Lack of flavor. Why isn't goblin bombardment tribal-goblin? Goblin warens?
Pros:
1. Some dumbass doesn't have to come up with a few spell-classes. Seriously, Arcane. Now give Treefolk and plantfolk and elves an affinity for "Natural" instants and sorceries. Give beasts an affinity for Primal spells. Give zombies an affinity for necromancy. Metamorphisis or shapeshifters, prideful spells for giants?
Battlewand Treefolk 2.0
Creature - Treefolk
I get +2,+2 whenever you play a forest, a treefolk creature spell, or a natural spell. I'm that awesome.
1/3
See how easy it is?
2. Some dufus says "wow, that's something they haven't done before. (I wonder if they errattaded my goblin matron so I can tutor for that...)
Seriously, I'm all for doing new things to be new. But this is just adding a perminant type and (edit) with rules to be new doesn't sound new, it sounds stupid. It's certainly out-weighed by all confusion and bad things listed above, right?
3. ??? Seriously, outside of being lazy and appealing to the magic player who is distracted by shiney objects, I *CANNOT* think of a 3rd reason to do Tribal.
And as anyone will tell you, 5 relatively strong reasons > 2 relatively weak reasons any day of the week.
Ok, I know this is a technicality, but Split Second is only as fast as the spell its on. It's just an ability that says you can't respond with spells or non mana activated abilities.
Tribla cards (and anything else they decide to tack creature types onto) can have interesting interactions, such as that new Kithkin + the new Giant Enchantment, as well as Blightspeaker + Bound in Silence.
Dude, things are not "fast" - you *need* to stop talking about it.
And Tribal cards *DO NOT* have interesting interactions. The "rider" mechanic, ill conceived as it was in Onslaught, only partially made sense - your soldier "rode" the bird, hence it had flying. Yeah, right... odd, since you could attack with the bird too... and have them be blocked by two different creatures. But whatever - they weren't constructed playable. But are you seriously arguing that the Kithkin, who gets a bonus for hanging out with giants (there's flavor here somewhere) - also gets a bonus for hanging around with a giant's toothbrush (tribal artifact - giant)? Now, I understand getting bonuses because there are enchantments in play - drafting Xth lets you get a nice 2/2 for G2 that gets +1,+1 for each Pacifism on your opponent's creatures (seems good to me). But the Kithkin gets bonuses for giants AND tribal-enchantments, tribal-artifacts, tribal-lands, tribal-planeswalkers (seriously - why isn't Garrik human?)... but not tribal-sorceries, and tribal-instant-giants.
I suppose I could see some "benifit" to getting the bonus from "either" creatures or tribal non-creatures, but is the "space" saved and created sufficient to cut off the design space of "splice onto creature", and erratta every spell in the past that dealt with creature types?
And, let's face it, Bound in Silence, beyond being an incredibly stupid waste of a card, could have been printed like this:
Bound in Silence 2W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Pacifism text
Tribal - Rebel (This counts as a rebel. Maybe some fun other reminder text). [Or Rebel-aligned]
Saving space, time, and allowing for the interesting interactions you like.
Dude, things are not "fast" - you *need* to stop talking about it.
That was kind of the point of my post. Thanks for missing it. I'll try really hard to put quotations in there so you can understand next time.
And Tribal cards *DO NOT* have interesting interactions. The "rider" mechanic, ill conceived as it was in Onslaught, only partially made sense - your soldier "rode" the bird, hence it had flying. Yeah, right... odd, since you could attack with the bird too... and have them be blocked by two different creatures. But whatever - they weren't constructed playable. But are you seriously arguing that the Kithkin, who gets a bonus for hanging out with giants (there's flavor here somewhere) - also gets a bonus for hanging around with a giant's toothbrush (tribal artifact - giant)? Now, I understand getting bonuses because there are enchantments in play - drafting Xth lets you get a nice 2/2 for G2 that gets +1,+1 for each Pacifism on your opponent's creatures (seems good to me). But the Kithkin gets bonuses for giants AND tribal-enchantments, tribal-artifacts, tribal-lands, tribal-planeswalkers (seriously - why isn't Garrik human?)... but not tribal-sorceries, and tribal-instant-giants.
I suppose I could see some "benifit" to getting the bonus from "either" creatures or tribal non-creatures, but is the "space" saved and created sufficient to cut off the design space of "splice onto creature", and erratta every spell in the past that dealt with creature types?
And, let's face it, Bound in Silence, beyond being an incredibly stupid waste of a card, could have been printed like this:
Bound in Silence 2W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Pacifism text
Tribal - Rebel (This counts as a rebel. Maybe some fun other reminder text). [Or Rebel-aligned]
Saving space, time, and allowing for the interesting interactions you like.
Obviously, I was talking about interestingly functional , not interestingly flavorful. Tutoring a pacifism out of your deck at instant speed can be pretty good in limited, methinks.
As for the kithkin, obviously its not a great combo there, being that the kithkin is CMC 2, so your opponent probably shares or beats your CMC by turn 3, but the point is it still gets pumped by it. Functional, yes. Flavorful, not really.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but I already drafted Kamigawa block.
The question we need to ask ourselves, and WOTC *should* have asked themselves, is if Tribal opens up design space or closes it.
Cons:
1. You can't have "splice onto creatures" anymore. You "could have", but now you can't. Personally, I think giving creatures I play another creature's "comes into play" ability seems rather cool. For example:
Treefolk Rooter 2G
Creature - Treefolk
Splice onto Treefolk G
This comes into play with a +1,+1 counter on it.
1/2
You'll note that Splice was a rather fun and innovative mechanic, and 187 creatures are fun... so printing something like the above would be a nice melding of the two. But Tribal takes that away. Closes off design space.
2. Confusing. Some people still think the giant enchantment is an aura that enchants giants...
3. massive erratta. So now apparently Mercenaries can tutor out tribal enchantments. I know, I know... Future Sight did it, but WOTC has blatently admitted that Future Sight is a flop. Now, I'm sure it's sold relatively well - about as well as any other "3rd set" has...
4. Counter intuitive interactions. Really, the mercenary I use to enslave people can also tutor out a mercenary land? Oh, and let's not get started on Goblin Matron being a spell-tutor now. Not cool. Oh, and out of flavor too. Red doesn't tutor for enchantments - tribal or otherwise.
5. Lack of flavor. Why isn't goblin bombardment tribal-goblin? Goblin warens?
Pros:
1. Some dumbass doesn't have to come up with a few spell-classes. Seriously, Arcane. Now give Treefolk and plantfolk and elves an affinity for "Natural" instants and sorceries. Give beasts an affinity for Primal spells. Give zombies an affinity for necromancy. Metamorphisis or shapeshifters, prideful spells for giants?
Battlewand Treefolk 2.0
Creature - Treefolk
I get +2,+2 whenever you play a forest, a treefolk creature spell, or a natural spell. I'm that awesome.
1/3
See how easy it is?
2. Some dufus says "wow, that's something they haven't done before. (I wonder if they errattaded my goblin matron so I can tutor for that...)
Seriously, I'm all for doing new things to be new. But this is just adding a perminant type and (edit) with rules to be new doesn't sound new, it sounds stupid. It's certainly out-weighed by all confusion and bad things listed above, right?
3. ??? Seriously, outside of being lazy and appealing to the magic player who is distracted by shiney objects, I *CANNOT* think of a 3rd reason to do Tribal.
And as anyone will tell you, 5 relatively strong reasons > 2 relatively weak reasons any day of the week.
Dude, things are not "fast" - you *need* to stop talking about it.
And Tribal cards *DO NOT* have interesting interactions. The "rider" mechanic, ill conceived as it was in Onslaught, only partially made sense - your soldier "rode" the bird, hence it had flying. Yeah, right... odd, since you could attack with the bird too... and have them be blocked by two different creatures. But whatever - they weren't constructed playable. But are you seriously arguing that the Kithkin, who gets a bonus for hanging out with giants (there's flavor here somewhere) - also gets a bonus for hanging around with a giant's toothbrush (tribal artifact - giant)? Now, I understand getting bonuses because there are enchantments in play - drafting Xth lets you get a nice 2/2 for G2 that gets +1,+1 for each Pacifism on your opponent's creatures (seems good to me). But the Kithkin gets bonuses for giants AND tribal-enchantments, tribal-artifacts, tribal-lands, tribal-planeswalkers (seriously - why isn't Garrik human?)... but not tribal-sorceries, and tribal-instant-giants.
I suppose I could see some "benifit" to getting the bonus from "either" creatures or tribal non-creatures, but is the "space" saved and created sufficient to cut off the design space of "splice onto creature", and erratta every spell in the past that dealt with creature types?
And, let's face it, Bound in Silence, beyond being an incredibly stupid waste of a card, could have been printed like this:
Bound in Silence 2W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Pacifism text
Tribal - Rebel (This counts as a rebel. Maybe some fun other reminder text). [Or Rebel-aligned]
Saving space, time, and allowing for the interesting interactions you like.
I hate to jump in on a conversation, but these arguments don't even make sense. Splice onto Creatures, for example, is so far from the current rules meaning of Splice that there is no reasonable way it could be done the way you describe, tribal or no.
To the second point, lots of stuff is confusing the first time around. That isn't a reason not to print it, because most people get it the second time around. It's only when stuff needs to be explained more than once that a problem arises, and let me assure you that in no universe is Tribal the worst offender that's been printed.
To the third point (and this is the one that made me bother to respond to the post at all), Future Sight was the best set for limited ever printed, IMHO, and it didn't fare too poorly for constructed, either. I'd be fascinated to hear where WOTC admitted that it was a flop, because I think you're hearing things. The set sold better than PC did in its first three months.
Your fourth and fifth points are valid. Weak, and precedent has been set to show that Wizards both 1) does not prioritize those issues, and 2) it does not have an impact on sales (people would rather be able to equip a Loxodon Warhammer to their Bird of Paradise than not). But valid.
Your first point in the Pros column is basically saying, "I think they should have done it the way I thought they should have done it." 1) Your approach is not inherently better than theirs. 2) They aren't psychic. Expecting them to read your mind to come up with a 'better' approach to Tribal is immature. 3) Wizards have more restrictions than just design space: they also have to work mostly within the confines of the English language. Why should they start coming up with synonyms for all the creature types they already support instead of just using the infrastructure they've already built?
I'm also not seeing the need for "massive errata" that you describe, but due to the vagueness you discuss it with, I might be missing your point entirely. Maybe you could clarify.
The rest of your post is basically just whining that the game is not as flavorful as you'd like it to be, right? To an extent, I sympathize, but eight thousand and some cards, designed modularly, will never make perfect sense, no matter how hard you try, and I, for one, am glad that they prefer to prioritize gameplay over flavor.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Greatheart, Stronghearted, or Stalwart Kithikin most likely.
Using Dictionary.com's translator for most of the following. Also using ideas from the guys who are translating here and my own reasoning and determination.
"Giant's Dominance" :1mana::symw:
Tribal Enchantment - Giant (R)
Each creature with the largest converted mana cost has protection from all colors.
Below the green text it says its not an aura.
"Stalwart Kithikin" :1mana::symw:
Creature - Kithikin Soldier (C)
"Stalwart Kithikin" has +1/+1 and first strike if you control a Giant.
2/1
(They say they were not sure if the power and toughness was correct.)
"Familiar's Maneuver" :symu::symu:
Instant (U)
As an additional cost to play "Familiar's Maneuver" return one creature you control to its owner's hand.
Counter target spell.
"Ponder" or "Thought" Instant (no rarity given but it did say it was instant speed not sorcery)
Look at the top 3 cards of your library and then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
"Banquet/Feast of the Underfoot/Soles?" :2mana::symb:
Instant
Return any amount of creature cards from your graveyard to the top of your library
Draw a card.
"Smoke bundling?" (/shrug. Its what dictionary.com says. Obviously it isn't) :1mana::symr:
Creature - elemental shaman (C)
Add two mana of any color combination to your mana pool. You may only spend this mana to play Elemental spells or abilities.
1/1
"Shifter of the forest?" :1mana::symg:
Creature - Shapeshifter (c)
Shapeshift (This card is every creature type)
2/2
This is the best I can do on the cards we don't have yet. From what I gather, they are all real cards.
Edit: Heh google sucks. They still have beta Japanese to Engrish. I am going to wait for rancored_elf's translations. I know mine are sorta meh.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Okay, thanks.
Here is the google translation for that person's page.
Browsing game Japan.
Because you do not remember the text finely, from 2ch reprinting.
It is thought that the mistake it is included.
It is strong, it comes, predominance of the person (1) (white)
Tribe [enchiyanto] - giant (rare)
Each [kurichiya] whose [manakosuto] which was seen with score is largest
The respective protection (all colors) it has.
It is not the aura.
With entire [enchiyanto] tribe card.
Why whether it is the giant puzzle.
Perhaps, when it does, perhaps it does not approach in just only the giant.
With just this description at all…
The large heart of [kisukin] (1) (white)
[kurichiya] - [kisukin] soldier (common)
If you have controlled the giant,
The large heart of [kisukin] receives the correction of +1/+1
With it has preemptive attack.
2/1
Whether or not as for problem low the giant of cost is.
As for [yotsun] the [tsu] [ke] which is the giant?
Maneuver of using demon (blue) (blue)
Instant (un common)
As the additional cost which plays the maneuver of the using demon,
The [kurichiya] 1 body which you control
You reset to the hand bill of the owner.
It deals with spell one, denies that.
It is new, << opposite spell /Counterspell (ICE) >>
Cip ability and affinity may.
<< Thing knowing [hukurou] /Sage Owl (10E) >> with it will combine.
Thought (blue)
Instant (common)
You look at 3 cards most from on your library.
After that, you reset in the order which desires those. As for you you
It is possible to do again to cut the library.
1 cards are pulled.
<< Preliminary announcement /Portent (ICE) >> burning turning.
The deck of blink type and the deck and affinity of storm type are good.
So<< Contact /AEthermage of the mystery demon Taoist' s Touch (DIS) >> the stun it falls, it is the [tsu] [ke] which is?
Banquet of bottom of foot (2) (black)
Instant (common)
The [kurichiya] card which is your graveyard
To deal with to the quantity which you desire, those you
You place most on the library.
1 cards are pulled.
<< Harvesting /Portent the bone (MIR) >> burning turning.
Draw! The monster card is possible.
The sky doing to strike, 1 draw [tsu] [te] it can also foolish like thing you say.
Smoke bundling (1) (red)
[kurichiya] - elemental shaman (common)
(T): Combination of the color which is desired to your [mana] pool,
The [mana] 2 point is added. As for this [mana], elemental spell?
You pay only in order to play elemental starting type ability.
1/1
Use calling to only artifact spell or ability to former times, you think that the person was.
The elemental edition.
Perhaps entering into 5 color decks, it probably is the [ru] person.
Change body of forest (1) (green)
[kurichiya] - soldier of multiple phases (common)
Multiple phases (this card is all [kurichiya] types always)
2/2
<< Ultimate body /Mistform of fog robe Ultimus (LGN) >> tear eye.
Why, time it is to do.
The preview the person who saw is with the MTG bar when.
Presuming from the story which is heard, it drew up the text.
Generally please think that it is such feeling.
Making a mistake, the [te] you do not take responsibility altogether!
[tsu] catching (1) (red)
Instant (common)
The [kurichiya] 1 body is dealt with. The ~ gives the damage of 3 points to that. You and the controller of the [kurichiya] releases most on the mutual library. When the card whose [manakosuto] which the opponent compared to was seen with score is high is released, the ~ gives the damage of 3 points to the prayer. Most on the library most you put the card which is released with this method under.
Accurate text seeking [mu].
Perhaps, when it does, whether the saw sari.
Gust and [uindouen] which you bite (2) (blue) (black)
[kurichiya] of legend - [hueariuizado]
Instant speed
Flight
(Blue) (black), life of 1 points is paid: The ~ is reset to the hand bill.
3/3
Google translate is pretty hilarious (and annoying). I'll post my best translation of the silly phrases, using common sense. Gimme a minute.
EDIT:
I read Game Japan magazine in the bookstore, but I don't remember the details. I reprinted this information from 2ch. I think there might be some mistakes.
Favor the Mighty - 1W
Tribal Enchantment - Giant (R)
Each creature with the highest converted mana cost has protection from all colors.
Kithkin Greatheart - 1W
Creature - Kithkin Soldier (C)
Kithkin Greatheart gets +1/+1 and has first strike as long as you control a Giant.
2/1
Maneuver of the Demon - UU
Instant (U)
As an additional cost to play Maneuver of the Demon, return a creature you control to owner's hand.
Counter target spell.
Think - U
Instant (C)
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
Banquet on Bottom of Foot* - 2B
Instant (C)
Put any number of target creature cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
Draw a card.
Smoke Rolling - 1R
Creature - Elemental Shaman (C)
: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play Elemental spells or activated abilities of Elementals.
1/1
Change Body Into Forest - 1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Soldier (C)
Shapeshift (This creature is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2
* Feast of Footbottom?
Edits made to this post.
Thanks Xyl for help making sure this info accurately reflects the linked Japanese website.
To be "strong of the heart" is to be stouthearted and ipso facto, to be stalwart.
@Yedoin and everyone else-By the way, "Ponder"/"Thought" is an instant speed, not sorcery speed card. I made sure I ran it through translations twice. Its a instant speed card.Edit: By the looks of above me, RE also listed it as a instant so I didn't mess up. =p
This being the case it makes it incredible.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Favor the Mighty - 1W
Tribal Enchantment - Giant (R)
Each creature with the highest converted mana cost has protection from all colors.
Kithkin Greatheart - 1W
Creature - Kithkin Soldier (C)
If you control a Giant, Kithkin Greatheart gets +1/+1 and has first strike.
2/1
Maneuver of the Demon - UU
Instant (U)
As an additional cost to play Maneuver of the Demon, return a creature you control to owner's hand.
Counter target spell.
Think - U
Instant (C)
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
Banquet on Bottom of Foot - 2B
Instant (C)
Put any number of target creature cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
Draw a card.
Smoke Rolling1R
Creature - Elemental Shaman (C)
: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play Elemental spells or activated abilities of Elementals.
1/1
Change Body Into Forest1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Soldier (C)
Shapeshift (This creature is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2
Okay, if these are correct, obviously we've got something going on here, now!
Check out that Omen on roids! Make it cost less, turn it into an instant, and go ahead and make it common too. Sweeeeet!
Okay, if these are correct, obviously we've got something going on here, now!
You've got some wording errors (such as "If" versus "As long as") and the card names are hilariously wrong, but the abilities are essentially correct.
Quote from rancored_elf »
I was browsing a Japanese magazine, but I don't remember the text perfectly, so there will be some mistakes.
Try again. "I read Game Japan magazine in the bookstore, but I don't remember the details. I reprinted this information from 2ch. I think there might be some mistakes."
So far I don't like them because they are not intuitive. At a glance, it looks like an aura that you would put on a giant (I realize it is an enchantment that interacts with the board).
How many cards will this enchantment enable? At what point does it become useless for it to have a type at all (of course WotC can say 'Never!' because they can continue to print tribal-giant enabling cards, but for our purposes if it doesnt play well in Lorwyn, it will seem like a waste)?
Yea.
Tribal auras are going to be a big source of disputes at the prerelease.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Card Name 1W
Creature - Kithkin Soldier (c)
this gets +1/+1 and has first strike as long as you control a Giant.
2/1
Silly of me not to spot it earlier.
But I have this niggling feeling that they are fake.
Like the counter spell reads:
The Kithkin reads
The "portent" reads:
The elemental reads:
The shapeshifter is the worst, it reads:
The rest is limited fodder.
If these are real then I will appreciate them, but there are one or two that are gunna wreck standard more than an iceberg
Ok, I know this is a technicality, but Split Second is only as fast as the spell its on. It's just an ability that says you can't respond with spells or non mana activated abilities.
Tribla cards (and anything else they decide to tack creature types onto) can have interesting interactions, such as that new Kithkin + the new Giant Enchantment, as well as Blightspeaker + Bound in Silence.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but I already drafted Kamigawa block.
The question we need to ask ourselves, and WOTC *should* have asked themselves, is if Tribal opens up design space or closes it.
Cons:
1. You can't have "splice onto creatures" anymore. You "could have", but now you can't. Personally, I think giving creatures I play another creature's "comes into play" ability seems rather cool. For example:
Treefolk Rooter 2G
Creature - Treefolk
Splice onto Treefolk G
This comes into play with a +1,+1 counter on it.
1/2
You'll note that Splice was a rather fun and innovative mechanic, and 187 creatures are fun... so printing something like the above would be a nice melding of the two. But Tribal takes that away. Closes off design space.
2. Confusing. Some people still think the giant enchantment is an aura that enchants giants...
3. massive erratta. So now apparently Mercenaries can tutor out tribal enchantments. I know, I know... Future Sight did it, but WOTC has blatently admitted that Future Sight is a flop. Now, I'm sure it's sold relatively well - about as well as any other "3rd set" has...
4. Counter intuitive interactions. Really, the mercenary I use to enslave people can also tutor out a mercenary land? Oh, and let's not get started on Goblin Matron being a spell-tutor now. Not cool. Oh, and out of flavor too. Red doesn't tutor for enchantments - tribal or otherwise.
5. Lack of flavor. Why isn't goblin bombardment tribal-goblin? Goblin warens?
Pros:
1. Some dumbass doesn't have to come up with a few spell-classes. Seriously, Arcane. Now give Treefolk and plantfolk and elves an affinity for "Natural" instants and sorceries. Give beasts an affinity for Primal spells. Give zombies an affinity for necromancy. Metamorphisis or shapeshifters, prideful spells for giants?
Battlewand Treefolk 2.0
Creature - Treefolk
I get +2,+2 whenever you play a forest, a treefolk creature spell, or a natural spell. I'm that awesome.
1/3
See how easy it is?
2. Some dufus says "wow, that's something they haven't done before. (I wonder if they errattaded my goblin matron so I can tutor for that...)
Seriously, I'm all for doing new things to be new. But this is just adding a perminant type and (edit) with rules to be new doesn't sound new, it sounds stupid. It's certainly out-weighed by all confusion and bad things listed above, right?
3. ??? Seriously, outside of being lazy and appealing to the magic player who is distracted by shiney objects, I *CANNOT* think of a 3rd reason to do Tribal.
And as anyone will tell you, 5 relatively strong reasons > 2 relatively weak reasons any day of the week.
Dude, things are not "fast" - you *need* to stop talking about it.
And Tribal cards *DO NOT* have interesting interactions. The "rider" mechanic, ill conceived as it was in Onslaught, only partially made sense - your soldier "rode" the bird, hence it had flying. Yeah, right... odd, since you could attack with the bird too... and have them be blocked by two different creatures. But whatever - they weren't constructed playable. But are you seriously arguing that the Kithkin, who gets a bonus for hanging out with giants (there's flavor here somewhere) - also gets a bonus for hanging around with a giant's toothbrush (tribal artifact - giant)? Now, I understand getting bonuses because there are enchantments in play - drafting Xth lets you get a nice 2/2 for G2 that gets +1,+1 for each Pacifism on your opponent's creatures (seems good to me). But the Kithkin gets bonuses for giants AND tribal-enchantments, tribal-artifacts, tribal-lands, tribal-planeswalkers (seriously - why isn't Garrik human?)... but not tribal-sorceries, and tribal-instant-giants.
I suppose I could see some "benifit" to getting the bonus from "either" creatures or tribal non-creatures, but is the "space" saved and created sufficient to cut off the design space of "splice onto creature", and erratta every spell in the past that dealt with creature types?
And, let's face it, Bound in Silence, beyond being an incredibly stupid waste of a card, could have been printed like this:
Bound in Silence 2W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Creature
Pacifism text
Tribal - Rebel (This counts as a rebel. Maybe some fun other reminder text). [Or Rebel-aligned]
Saving space, time, and allowing for the interesting interactions you like.
So, we have almost every Kithkin name in the set. Which could it be..?
Cenn's Heir . Burrenton Forge-Tender . Kithkin Harbinger . Kithkin Greatheart . Knight of Meadowgrain . Goldmeadow Stalwart
And I think his art is on T&T cards... Or maybe not, because he's on the booster packs, too, and there's no commons... usually. Oo
"Protection from all" enchant dose not write "aura" & "enchant ---"
I think it "grobal? enchant"
That was kind of the point of my post. Thanks for missing it. I'll try really hard to put quotations in there so you can understand next time.
Obviously, I was talking about interestingly functional , not interestingly flavorful. Tutoring a pacifism out of your deck at instant speed can be pretty good in limited, methinks.
As for the kithkin, obviously its not a great combo there, being that the kithkin is CMC 2, so your opponent probably shares or beats your CMC by turn 3, but the point is it still gets pumped by it. Functional, yes. Flavorful, not really.
I hate to jump in on a conversation, but these arguments don't even make sense. Splice onto Creatures, for example, is so far from the current rules meaning of Splice that there is no reasonable way it could be done the way you describe, tribal or no.
To the second point, lots of stuff is confusing the first time around. That isn't a reason not to print it, because most people get it the second time around. It's only when stuff needs to be explained more than once that a problem arises, and let me assure you that in no universe is Tribal the worst offender that's been printed.
To the third point (and this is the one that made me bother to respond to the post at all), Future Sight was the best set for limited ever printed, IMHO, and it didn't fare too poorly for constructed, either. I'd be fascinated to hear where WOTC admitted that it was a flop, because I think you're hearing things. The set sold better than PC did in its first three months.
Your fourth and fifth points are valid. Weak, and precedent has been set to show that Wizards both 1) does not prioritize those issues, and 2) it does not have an impact on sales (people would rather be able to equip a Loxodon Warhammer to their Bird of Paradise than not). But valid.
Your first point in the Pros column is basically saying, "I think they should have done it the way I thought they should have done it." 1) Your approach is not inherently better than theirs. 2) They aren't psychic. Expecting them to read your mind to come up with a 'better' approach to Tribal is immature. 3) Wizards have more restrictions than just design space: they also have to work mostly within the confines of the English language. Why should they start coming up with synonyms for all the creature types they already support instead of just using the infrastructure they've already built?
I'm also not seeing the need for "massive errata" that you describe, but due to the vagueness you discuss it with, I might be missing your point entirely. Maybe you could clarify.
The rest of your post is basically just whining that the game is not as flavorful as you'd like it to be, right? To an extent, I sympathize, but eight thousand and some cards, designed modularly, will never make perfect sense, no matter how hard you try, and I, for one, am glad that they prefer to prioritize gameplay over flavor.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
私の日本語はよくないです! 日本語でのカード名を教えませんか?
(I am not good at japanese! Could you post the japanese card names?)
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
http://mtgjapan.x.cmssquare.com/modules/wordpress/index.php?p=144
also translating that in google makes it easier to understand then his translation.
キスキンの大心臓 / Kithkin big Heart/ Kithkin
使い魔の策略 / Familiar Outmaneuver (or ploy)/ Counter
思案 / Thought / Portent
足の底の饗宴 / Feast (of) ~ /Bone Harvest
煙束ね / Smoke... / mana elementals
森林の変わり身 / Shift of the Woods /Mistform Ultimus
My best guesses, probably 100% incorrect...
EDIT: Now with known card names!
Favor of the Mighty
Kithkin Greatheart
Familiar's Trick?
Meditation? Ponder?
Feast of Soles (*groan*)
Smokemaster?
Shifter of the woods?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Using Dictionary.com's translator for most of the following. Also using ideas from the guys who are translating here and my own reasoning and determination.
"Giant's Dominance" :1mana::symw:
Tribal Enchantment - Giant (R)
Each creature with the largest converted mana cost has protection from all colors.
Below the green text it says its not an aura.
"Stalwart Kithikin" :1mana::symw:
Creature - Kithikin Soldier (C)
"Stalwart Kithikin" has +1/+1 and first strike if you control a Giant.
2/1
(They say they were not sure if the power and toughness was correct.)
"Familiar's Maneuver" :symu::symu:
Instant (U)
As an additional cost to play "Familiar's Maneuver" return one creature you control to its owner's hand.
Counter target spell.
"Ponder" or "Thought"
Instant (no rarity given but it did say it was instant speed not sorcery)
Look at the top 3 cards of your library and then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
"Banquet/Feast of the Underfoot/Soles?" :2mana::symb:
Instant
Return any amount of creature cards from your graveyard to the top of your library
Draw a card.
"Smoke bundling?" (/shrug. Its what dictionary.com says. Obviously it isn't) :1mana::symr:
Creature - elemental shaman (C)
Add two mana of any color combination to your mana pool. You may only spend this mana to play Elemental spells or abilities.
1/1
"Shifter of the forest?" :1mana::symg:
Creature - Shapeshifter (c)
Shapeshift (This card is every creature type)
2/2
This is the best I can do on the cards we don't have yet. From what I gather, they are all real cards.
Edit: Heh google sucks. They still have beta Japanese to Engrish. I am going to wait for rancored_elf's translations. I know mine are sorta meh.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Okay, thanks.
Here is the google translation for that person's page.
Google translate is pretty hilarious (and annoying). I'll post my best translation of the silly phrases, using common sense. Gimme a minute.
EDIT:
I read Game Japan magazine in the bookstore, but I don't remember the details. I reprinted this information from 2ch. I think there might be some mistakes.
Favor the Mighty - 1W
Tribal Enchantment - Giant (R)
Each creature with the highest converted mana cost has protection from all colors.
Kithkin Greatheart - 1W
Creature - Kithkin Soldier (C)
Kithkin Greatheart gets +1/+1 and has first strike as long as you control a Giant.
2/1
Maneuver of the Demon - UU
Instant (U)
As an additional cost to play Maneuver of the Demon, return a creature you control to owner's hand.
Counter target spell.
Think - U
Instant (C)
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
Banquet on Bottom of Foot* - 2B
Instant (C)
Put any number of target creature cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
Draw a card.
Smoke Rolling - 1R
Creature - Elemental Shaman (C)
: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play Elemental spells or activated abilities of Elementals.
1/1
Change Body Into Forest - 1G
Creature - Shapeshifter Soldier (C)
Shapeshift (This creature is every creature type even if this card isn't in play.)
2/2
* Feast of Footbottom?
Edits made to this post.
Thanks Xyl for help making sure this info accurately reflects the linked Japanese website.
.
To be "strong of the heart" is to be stouthearted and ipso facto, to be stalwart.
@Yedoin and everyone else-By the way, "Ponder"/"Thought" is an instant speed, not sorcery speed card. I made sure I ran it through translations twice. Its a instant speed card.Edit: By the looks of above me, RE also listed it as a instant so I didn't mess up. =p
This being the case it makes it incredible.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Ah so we do. My bad.
Though I think Stalwart Kithikin would of made for a better name though. =p
The names really don't matter because, the two blue instant spells are amazing.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Machine translation is never reliable but in this case the translation is correct. That doesn't mean the information is correct...
EDIT: What happened to my non-machine translation? The machine translation isn't totally accurate.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
This is the written text below the title and cost of the card:
インスタント (コモン)
Translated text:
Dicitonary.com - Instant (common)
Google - Instant (common)
Free Translation.com - Instant (common)
etc.
It's instant speed "lesser Index" with a "may shuffle" effect on it plus a "draw a card". Amazing.
@Xyl: I think its safe to say the information is good.
@Rodyle: ><; Oh Coat of Arms. Sheeeeez.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Okay, if these are correct, obviously we've got something going on here, now!
Check out that Omen on roids! Make it cost less, turn it into an instant, and go ahead and make it common too. Sweeeeet!
.
You've got some wording errors (such as "If" versus "As long as") and the card names are hilariously wrong, but the abilities are essentially correct.
Try again. "I read Game Japan magazine in the bookstore, but I don't remember the details. I reprinted this information from 2ch. I think there might be some mistakes."
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Nope. Coat of Arms always gives just +1/+1 per creature with matching type, not per each matching creature type.