And it's not that these lands are UNPLAYABLE if you're not playing a race..they CIPT here folks. And then don't pain you to use them. They still make two colors of mana in one card. Are they going to see play? Of course! Are they as good as the RAV duals? No..there's only one set better than the RAV duals. And in a block where, chances are, you're going to be running creatures..and chances are...those creatures are going to be one of the Tribes you need to unlock the dual...why are we complaining again?
We all understand that these aren't as good as the RAV duels. But, the real problem that alot of people are actually looking at formats outside of Standard (such as extended and casual). While we don't know what else this set/block holds, it may turn out that these are amazingly good. But, at the moment with the information we have, these are just a little better than the Invasion duels. They were uncommon, and saw play when you needed 3/4/5 color decks.
I didn't expect to see amazing duels in this block. CoK didn't have good duels, and Mir didn't even have duels. We've been spoiled that the last two blocks had playable duels, but in the last 4 years, it's only been 50%. Yes, we'll be running creatures in out tribal decks, but outside of those tribal decks at the moment, there is no useful need for these duels. I'm not disappointed, but I'm not completely impressed by them as well. The fact that these are rare are unstandable in a Tribe block, but it's still a little sad.
These seem like they will be quite a bit weaker
how many of a creature type do you need to guarantee these come into play untapped
If i'm playing a Boros Deck, I want to:
A. Be able to play this turn 1 untapped, with certainty
B. Have 56+ cards less than 4 mana in their casting cost
Even if I play 3 or 4 of the Giant Legend...
And, heck, lets say I play 4 Jotun Grunts
and, then manage to find 4 Tribal Giant burn spells that fit in my deck...
This dual land is still a debatable choice. Playing suboptimal cards to unlock a dual land is FAR more painful than simply shocking yourself
*sigh*
The worst part is, in all their effort to get rid of useless creature types... Bloodrock Cyclops is a Cyclops not a giant
not that it's... constructed playable... by any means... A 3 mana, 3/3 giant could be playable, if there was enough tribal support...
but, no... it's creature type Cyclops...
Long and short of it is the RW dual land will be more or less unplayable outside block
Alright first out the gates we've only seen 38 cards from Lorwyn. Everything changes once it rotates in. Second, these lands were made for Tribal decks, not to slide into random other decks. As someone else said, the shocklands really did spoil people beyond belief. It's only logical to think that since the multicolor block is leaving standard then it should be more difficult to build multicolor decks with fantastic mana-bases. That is half of the reason a block is multi-colored in the first place. Seems like it'll take some time for people to recalibrate to having less than ideal mana for their decks.
One: It stimulates people to play tribal.
Two: It would stimulate people to play dual colors.
Ofcourse these reasons seem easy, but it's not. I like mono color tribal more then dual color tribal. Defenitly because you are dealing with your normal game, synergie in your tribal game, so for me, I don't got much energy left to also play and think dual colored.
But maybe I'm going to play dual after all, for sure when good Merfolk cards will be in white.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
If Black adds usable Goblin "tools" to Extended Goblins' toolbox, then the R/B Goblin Dual will see Extended play. For Casual, these lands are a gimme. C'mon...who isn't going to them in their fun Merfolk/Faerie/Whatever deck?
I do have one change that if I were in R&D I would have made though...
The card would have said: Tribal Land - Goblin (etc)
That would certainly warrant a rare spot, no? Then you could simply show another of the same land for it to CIP untapped.
Heck..even as it stands right now...I don't have to show you a Goblin creature (or other creature type creature), I can just show you the new Goblin Grenade...;). The same holds up for other Tribal spells. Who's to say, even if we aren't packing decks full of creatures, we won't be packing them full of Tribal Instants, Sorceries, Enchantments, Artifacts, or Lands?
Ugh, that's awful. What's wrong with just "T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Use this mana only to play Elemental spells and activated abilities of Elemental permanents?" I was kind of figuring that would be a shoe-in.
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for everyone complaining, just sell your copies of these lands to us over here in casual land who can't afford a playset of every dual land printed. We'd be happy to take 'em off your hands.
(about the English language) It's kinda like a raft that was cobbled together from parts of three different boats and since then has been kept barely afloat with crude repairs every time a leak appeared.
yes, a fraction of Standard. maybe a significant fraction, but a fraction nonetheless.
Y'know, 1/1 is a fraction, too. You do realize the implication when someone says "A fraction of ...." is that the fraction is SMALL, not significant, right?
This land is a "meh" for me. I play only control with only a few creatures.. I can't play this if in my deck I'm playing only the counterspell faerie.
Sorry for my english.
I like how no one's thinking about the implications of this block. You don't have to have faerie creatures to make this work. There will almost certainly be some decent faerie tribal cards that you can use this with.
[COLOR=gray]Agh. Should be uncommon. This nerfs the theories on Fetches for this set at least, because I don't think we'd get too rare land cycles. But, I'll be picking them up regardless.
It makes sense though. All the enemy colors aren't even supported in this set.[/COLOR]
I kind of agree, but the lands are a bit narrow for limited play...
YuanTI- As i stated, they weren't going to be a match for the duals, but to force tribal play at the RARE spot isn't fair. That is basically Legions all over again (Play creatures-- we won't even print other spells this time. Don't play creatures>? Don't play.)
These aren't better than the Duals, or the Fetches, or the enemy Pains or the regular Pains for that matter. They're way too specific to be at their rarity.
Carrion- Time Spiral wasnt a multicolor block either, but it did have the FS cycle, which i can say has a few better designs than this one. (Horizon Canopy, Graven Cairns, Nimbus Maze)
The forced tribalness is NOT good. Forcing tribal=== BAD. Long term-- the races change with the plane, thus the decline in power for these cards.
Finally someone who has some common sense - all i have to say it i hope these cards are fake!
OMG!!! Secluded Glen is fantastic it's strictly better than Salt Marsh and in a deck with a decent amount of faeries it's on a par with the shocklands(not the original duals it lack their land types). It will probably see some play in control decks(like the invasion tap lands did), and will see a lot of play in any deck with a decent number of the tribal cards. In other words in aggro decks without the tribal link these lands are worthless.
And different dual lands for the other tribes- very cool hopefully there will be a full set of 10, one for each color combination. BG is Elves(not Treefolk Hydro), RW(Giants), BR(Goblins), WU(Merfolk), GW(Kithkin), i'm really hoping wizards have a tribe thought out for all the color combinations because a lopsided cycle of more than 5 and less than 10 is just annoying. Treefolk is a problem since elves and kithkin seem to overlap their color combinations. Elementals are supposedly all colors so maybe a painless City of Brass reliant on Elementals.
"Sell to us" and "can't afford" seems to be a bit ironic in this post.
heh heh.. .you are correct. I should have clarified.
With all the Spikes complaining, it doesn't look as if these duals will be nearly as expensive as fetches or shocklands.
I am thinking (although its too early to tell) that one will be able to buy a playset of say, the new UB fairy dual for the same cost as just one of the heavily-played dual lands.
I like how no one's thinking about the implications of this block. You don't have to have faerie creatures to make this work. There will almost certainly be some decent faerie tribal cards that you can use this with.
wow. You are correct. I know I didn't catch that and by reading the posts, it doesn't seem many others have as well. It does read "reveal a faerie card" and not "faerie creature." that could make these a lot more playable than many are thinking, depending on the tribal instants/sorceries we get.
(about the English language) It's kinda like a raft that was cobbled together from parts of three different boats and since then has been kept barely afloat with crude repairs every time a leak appeared.
Hm... And fairies is one of the "minor" creature types from Lorwyn. This makes things complicated, since it would be easier if it was just the main 5 creature types. Here's what I see (I can't see them NOT making this a 10-card cycle, people would have fits).
B/R for goblins
U/B for Fairies
G/W for kithkin
G/B for Elves
W/U for Merfolk
W/B for Treefolk (both other combinations are taken)
W/R for Giants
R/U or R/G for Elementals (maybe both?)
U/G for Shapeshifters (though really, the shapeshifters can satisfy any of these)
Something else for the other combination of R/U or R/G that the elementals don't use. Maybe both are elementals? Dunno.
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Yeah, I'm pretty much going with something along the lines of what wildfire explained.
I can't really imagine them making a cycle of duals where like some are 2 colour, some are 3 colour and all that. They usually don't let one tribe have a part of the cycle that's totally better then any other tribe's piece of it. It's usually just different.
I would guess they'd just basically do it like wildfire explained. Just sort of work every race into it's most predominate 2 colors and go with that.
Or running with his idea further could be all 10 are in and similar - just that the "non-existant" tribes have to use Shapeshifters to power theirs in block for now.
Or running with his idea further could be all 10 are in and similar - just that the "non-existant" tribes have to use Shapeshifters to power theirs in block for now.
I could also imagine them sort of doing it how the Rav block duals were released. Like have 4 in Lorwyn and then 3 reach in the next 2 sets or something like that (a thousand pardons if someone already though of that).
Ugh, I just hope the Merfolk one really is U/W. I'm like soooo calling merfolk as my tribe.
I believe Hydro has it right with the B/G as the Treefolk land solely for the fact that Elves already have killer mana accel that would play into the Champion mechanic like a glove.
Oh my....man..this is going to make extended a consistent multicolor bonanza. Weren't they going to do away with that? Although I suppose it does of course rely on the tribes....
Either way, me likey. With six of thm being in this set alone (speculatively) I can only wonder where the other four (I doubt they'd do an uber Pillar of the Paruns) would be printed. Maybe in the second set? Perhaps in Jelly?
Thanks Hydro for this info by the way, duh! Ungrateful ass me.
Urzasseds has it right in a way. They better than some alternatives, but we couldve had a cycle from FS shifted that would be better. They didnt need to be Rav good is all im saying, just not tribal based for the sake of the block. Kamigawa block showed the horrible showings of a self dedicated block.
Good idea hoping for Jelly though, we can probably expect a few more lands.
I believe Hydro has it right with the B/G as the Treefolk land solely for the fact that Elves already have killer mana accel that would play into the Champion mechanic like a glove.
Except "Mana Accel" and "Mana Fixing" are not the same thing... especially when you link to a GREEN card which produces GREEN mana.
Earlier this evening, I was about to post "Well couldn't Treefolk have BW while Elves get GB?" but I shut myself up when I read the first post, which has now been fixed. The only Treefolk things we've seen so far have been green, I believe, but if they truly are GWB in approximately-equal measures, I could see a BW Treefolk dual.
Here's what this card might look like. Note that I reworded slightly I think it looks damn awesome with this art. Anyways, I guess it doesn't contribute a whole lot, but it can help you get a feel for how the cards might feel I'm really looking forwards to these lands, although based on the number of people saying "I hope they're not too expensive I get the feeling they will be
We all understand that these aren't as good as the RAV duels. But, the real problem that alot of people are actually looking at formats outside of Standard (such as extended and casual). While we don't know what else this set/block holds, it may turn out that these are amazingly good. But, at the moment with the information we have, these are just a little better than the Invasion duels. They were uncommon, and saw play when you needed 3/4/5 color decks.
I didn't expect to see amazing duels in this block. CoK didn't have good duels, and Mir didn't even have duels. We've been spoiled that the last two blocks had playable duels, but in the last 4 years, it's only been 50%. Yes, we'll be running creatures in out tribal decks, but outside of those tribal decks at the moment, there is no useful need for these duels. I'm not disappointed, but I'm not completely impressed by them as well. The fact that these are rare are unstandable in a Tribe block, but it's still a little sad.
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Alright first out the gates we've only seen 38 cards from Lorwyn. Everything changes once it rotates in. Second, these lands were made for Tribal decks, not to slide into random other decks. As someone else said, the shocklands really did spoil people beyond belief. It's only logical to think that since the multicolor block is leaving standard then it should be more difficult to build multicolor decks with fantastic mana-bases. That is half of the reason a block is multi-colored in the first place. Seems like it'll take some time for people to recalibrate to having less than ideal mana for their decks.
One: It stimulates people to play tribal.
Two: It would stimulate people to play dual colors.
Ofcourse these reasons seem easy, but it's not. I like mono color tribal more then dual color tribal. Defenitly because you are dealing with your normal game, synergie in your tribal game, so for me, I don't got much energy left to also play and think dual colored.
But maybe I'm going to play dual after all, for sure when good Merfolk cards will be in white.
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
I do have one change that if I were in R&D I would have made though...
The card would have said: Tribal Land - Goblin (etc)
That would certainly warrant a rare spot, no? Then you could simply show another of the same land for it to CIP untapped.
Heck..even as it stands right now...I don't have to show you a Goblin creature (or other creature type creature), I can just show you the new Goblin Grenade...;). The same holds up for other Tribal spells. Who's to say, even if we aren't packing decks full of creatures, we won't be packing them full of Tribal Instants, Sorceries, Enchantments, Artifacts, or Lands?
Cheers,
Austin
At least I am not a goblin player.
I miss monocolour decks and exclusively green manafixing badly.
On the bright side, this forces tribal, and tribal is good. Chaserare duals that spikes cant do terrible, horrible things with are fun.
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Y'know, 1/1 is a fraction, too. You do realize the implication when someone says "A fraction of ...." is that the fraction is SMALL, not significant, right?
(But this was an awesome quote, keep it up! )
I like how no one's thinking about the implications of this block. You don't have to have faerie creatures to make this work. There will almost certainly be some decent faerie tribal cards that you can use this with.
I kind of agree, but the lands are a bit narrow for limited play...
-E
Finally someone who has some common sense - all i have to say it i hope these cards are fake!
And different dual lands for the other tribes- very cool hopefully there will be a full set of 10, one for each color combination. BG is Elves(not Treefolk Hydro), RW(Giants), BR(Goblins), WU(Merfolk), GW(Kithkin), i'm really hoping wizards have a tribe thought out for all the color combinations because a lopsided cycle of more than 5 and less than 10 is just annoying. Treefolk is a problem since elves and kithkin seem to overlap their color combinations. Elementals are supposedly all colors so maybe a painless City of Brass reliant on Elementals.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
heh heh.. .you are correct. I should have clarified.
With all the Spikes complaining, it doesn't look as if these duals will be nearly as expensive as fetches or shocklands.
I am thinking (although its too early to tell) that one will be able to buy a playset of say, the new UB fairy dual for the same cost as just one of the heavily-played dual lands.
wow. You are correct. I know I didn't catch that and by reading the posts, it doesn't seem many others have as well. It does read "reveal a faerie card" and not "faerie creature." that could make these a lot more playable than many are thinking, depending on the tribal instants/sorceries we get.
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B/R for goblins
U/B for Fairies
G/W for kithkin
G/B for Elves
W/U for Merfolk
W/B for Treefolk (both other combinations are taken)
W/R for Giants
R/U or R/G for Elementals (maybe both?)
U/G for Shapeshifters (though really, the shapeshifters can satisfy any of these)
Something else for the other combination of R/U or R/G that the elementals don't use. Maybe both are elementals? Dunno.
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I can't really imagine them making a cycle of duals where like some are 2 colour, some are 3 colour and all that. They usually don't let one tribe have a part of the cycle that's totally better then any other tribe's piece of it. It's usually just different.
I would guess they'd just basically do it like wildfire explained. Just sort of work every race into it's most predominate 2 colors and go with that.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
I could also imagine them sort of doing it how the Rav block duals were released. Like have 4 in Lorwyn and then 3 reach in the next 2 sets or something like that (a thousand pardons if someone already though of that).
Ugh, I just hope the Merfolk one really is U/W. I'm like soooo calling merfolk as my tribe.
[/center]
Either way, me likey. With six of thm being in this set alone (speculatively) I can only wonder where the other four (I doubt they'd do an uber Pillar of the Paruns) would be printed. Maybe in the second set? Perhaps in Jelly?
Urzasseds has it right in a way. They better than some alternatives, but we couldve had a cycle from FS shifted that would be better. They didnt need to be Rav good is all im saying, just not tribal based for the sake of the block. Kamigawa block showed the horrible showings of a self dedicated block.
Good idea hoping for Jelly though, we can probably expect a few more lands.
Yeah, I hope Elemental one is a City of Brass variant.
B Can you solve The Enigma Puzzle ?
Except "Mana Accel" and "Mana Fixing" are not the same thing... especially when you link to a GREEN card which produces GREEN mana.
Earlier this evening, I was about to post "Well couldn't Treefolk have BW while Elves get GB?" but I shut myself up when I read the first post, which has now been fixed. The only Treefolk things we've seen so far have been green, I believe, but if they truly are GWB in approximately-equal measures, I could see a BW Treefolk dual.
Thoughts?
:pumpkin:
UBB Rogues
UUB Faeries
RW Seismic Swans
RRR Control
[/center]
-T-
Extended-?
Legacy-Mono Blue Fish.
Thanks IM