Rules question: If Yixlid Jailer is in play and this guy goes to the yard, does he get shuffled back anyway? I'm not sure what order those things would go on the stack.
Quote from "Future Sight FAQ" »
An ability that triggers on going to the graveyard from play is considered to trigger in play so this card won't affect that trigger.
An ability that triggers on going to the graveyard from other zones is considered to trigger after getting to the graveyard, so this effect will prevent that ability from triggering.
[2007/05/01]
With Yixilid in play, the Incarnations are going back to the library if they go from play to the yard, but not if they go from the library, hand, rfg, or some other zone to the yard.
Rules question: If Yixlid Jailer is in play and this guy goes to the yard, does he get shuffled back anyway? I'm not sure what order those things would go on the stack.
Depends on where it goes to the graveyard from. If it goes from a play, then yes, because the ability will be checked while in play. Pretty much anywhere else, I.E. hand, library, then it won't, as abilities are checked when the card is in a public zone (graveyard) in this case, and by then, Jailer has already removed the ability.
In reply to Enslaught - I was not refering to posts that give real reasons as to why a card may be bad, but to the posts that simply say "yawnnnn." or "this card is crap." My post was predominently made to point out that real use and testing of a card is warranted before claiming that a card is good or bad. Not "This card has a use just wait and see!". Yes saying that and saying a card is trash are equally easy, but putting in the effort and thought to try and utilize a card is what matters.
I understand that this card is somewhat easy to evaluate based on the fact that we've seen it all before and what we saw before would lead one to believe that this card will be no better, but we're not dealing in absolutes. Sometimes it can be right to main-deck enchantment hate (masques block) and sometimes creature-kill is next to useless (academy/vicious combo days). Cards can go from great to bad depending on the environment. Notice i never said Dread was a good card in and of itself, but that it could be decent given the right environment.
Asking if cards are good or bad is something we must do for sure. What achieves nothing is judging a card simply based on past-cards' success' or unknown factors. Without actually testing a card that may or may not be good (meaning not Cinder Crawler :p) you cannot definitively say if the card can be played effectively or not. You really shouldn't take offense as I was just commenting on the people that call cards bad without laying out valid reasons/testing as to why this is the case. I should've been more clear on this, sorry bout that. You made excellent points as to why Dread may not be good (aside from Gleancrawler being comparable in body but very dissimilar in ability). Both may be controlling in a way (getting creatures back/destroying opponent's attackers) but the end result is entirely different. That and you don't need any more creatures on your side for Dread's ability to be useful.
It is perfectly fine for people to have their opinions obviously, all i wanted to say is that borderline cards that could prove useful should not be stomped on without testing. Lazy judgements are just that.
Zombiemachine - I agree all the way that Visara is far better than Dread. The comparison was probablly not all that warranted. I was just trying to give an example of, as i said, a somewhat comparable creature. But I failed.....*runs off crying his eyes out*
Fair enough - and you're right, there are a lot of unknowns about this set, and the next set that'll make up block constructed play. Elementals could be a force to be reckoned with and this guy could be a utility player against, say, faerie aggro, if he's accelerated out. It's not hard to imagine scenarios in which it could be good; as I said, it's still a good creature with good p/t for the mana cost and a decent ability and pseudo-evasion... It's just hard to imagine that it'll make a huge splash in standard constructed, given what we know about the types of cards that usually make it in those decks.
One other note: With Putrify, Wrecking Ball and Mortify leaving T2, this guy will be a lot harder to kill than Gleancrawler. We don't know what will replace those cards, but I'd be surprised if they are that powerful. Pacifism won't axe his ability, Condemn and Remove Spirit are the best bets against him. There's also Death Rattle, I suppose.
I can see a deck with this guy, Tendrils, Consume Spirit and a Vampiric Link or two being fun at the very least.
We knew there would be a cycle of 3XXX costing Incarnations ever since we got Vigor confirmed. So I really don't understand your post at all.
I was just implying that Lorwyn so far is essentially a gigantic ripoff of Onslaught. Outside of the Planeswalkers, everything spoiled is something we've seen in Onslaught block, just exchange tribal types etc. This cycle is basically a total ripoff of the pit fighters from Onslaught, and I think it sucks that Wizards can't even come up with something vaguely original anymore. At least in Time Spiral it made sense given the theme of the block, but this time there's not really an excuse for just rehashing things that have already been done.
This cycle is basically a total ripoff of the pit fighters from Onslaught, and I think it sucks that Wizards can't even come up with something vaguely original anymore.
Their manacosts are the same, and they're beaters. Otherwise, they're entirely different than the Pit Fighter cycle. The Pit Fighters were very independent cards. They hit the table, and they do their own thing. The Incarnation cycle has a much more peripheral effect, in that they shine in conjunction with everything else on the table.
I think the Elementals are going to see more play that people are speculating just because this is a tribal set, and there will be cards that make these elementals better than the appear at first glance. We know there are going to be cheap Flamekin cards that product mana of any color for Elemental spells and effects. That means these guys have a much better chance of hitting the board than your typical 6cc creature.
Their manacosts are the same, and they're beaters. Otherwise, they're entirely different than the Pit Fighter cycle. The Pit Fighters were very independent cards. They hit the table, and they do their own thing. The Incarnation cycle has a much more peripheral effect, in that they shine in conjunction with everything else on the table.
Yes, you make a good point there. Still the pit fighters (at least the green and black ones) were much better than these.
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It all depends on what types of elemental support we get, as it is trible and elementals are a tribe/ apparently one of the more powerful ones we will get ways of supporting these cards. Smokeroller is a good example and thats only one of the Flamekin we have seen. If Elemental decks start throwing down Dread's and Vigor's on turns three and four your opponent wont be to happy, Sure their *** and other such cards but that also kills of every other one of the tribes creatures. So stop thinking about how bad they are in 56 lands and Dreads deck and think about how you could abuse them.
And also as a side note the ability rocks and if your exuse for hateing it is that every time your opponent is attacking its going to somehow kill you making it so he doesnt care that his board is being wiped out you are either really really slow or you need to fight weaker opponents.
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I'm disappointed that they'll all be 6/6 evasion for 6 - so much for Wizards wanting to emphasise green as having the best creatures. Fixed P/T for a given cc always screws green in creature cycles, and we see the same here.
As for the card, read the article. The emphasis is heavily on multiplayer (same when they discussed Nacatl War-Pride, which IIRC was a FS preview). That alone is telling us they aren't slating this card for competitive constructed play. Wizards doesn't just cater to constructed tournament play - its previews (and cards) run the gamut of player and game types, so it's not fair to moan that we aren't being given an exceptional constructed card. We were shown Teeg yesterday, after all.
I like the picture on Dread and I think he is a nice way of dealing with untargetables. The only thing is, by the time you play him, those untargetables have probably eaten your face off. =)
Uh yeah, the thing is, this creature comes in at a point where, if their main win condition is attacking, they've probably got you down low enough to kill you in one attack, or else you were already winning anyway, and even if they're behind there's Wrap in Vigor to handle this. Control can just bounce it, kill it, RFG it, etc. MBC Even has a nifty little Korlash, which a)Will have a decent chance of killing you within 3 hits or less, and b)regenerates, which notably is not prevented here. The fact is, not even a no regeneration clause would make this playable. At its best it's a win-more in a black mid-range deck.
With Yixilid in play, the Incarnations are going back to the library if they go from play to the yard, but not if they go from the library, hand, rfg, or some other zone to the yard.
Depends on where it goes to the graveyard from. If it goes from a play, then yes, because the ability will be checked while in play. Pretty much anywhere else, I.E. hand, library, then it won't, as abilities are checked when the card is in a public zone (graveyard) in this case, and by then, Jailer has already removed the ability.
Fair enough - and you're right, there are a lot of unknowns about this set, and the next set that'll make up block constructed play. Elementals could be a force to be reckoned with and this guy could be a utility player against, say, faerie aggro, if he's accelerated out. It's not hard to imagine scenarios in which it could be good; as I said, it's still a good creature with good p/t for the mana cost and a decent ability and pseudo-evasion... It's just hard to imagine that it'll make a huge splash in standard constructed, given what we know about the types of cards that usually make it in those decks.
-E
I can see a deck with this guy, Tendrils, Consume Spirit and a Vampiric Link or two being fun at the very least.
I was just implying that Lorwyn so far is essentially a gigantic ripoff of Onslaught. Outside of the Planeswalkers, everything spoiled is something we've seen in Onslaught block, just exchange tribal types etc. This cycle is basically a total ripoff of the pit fighters from Onslaught, and I think it sucks that Wizards can't even come up with something vaguely original anymore. At least in Time Spiral it made sense given the theme of the block, but this time there's not really an excuse for just rehashing things that have already been done.
Their manacosts are the same, and they're beaters. Otherwise, they're entirely different than the Pit Fighter cycle. The Pit Fighters were very independent cards. They hit the table, and they do their own thing. The Incarnation cycle has a much more peripheral effect, in that they shine in conjunction with everything else on the table.
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Yes, you make a good point there. Still the pit fighters (at least the green and black ones) were much better than these.
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And also as a side note the ability rocks and if your exuse for hateing it is that every time your opponent is attacking its going to somehow kill you making it so he doesnt care that his board is being wiped out you are either really really slow or you need to fight weaker opponents.
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As for the card, read the article. The emphasis is heavily on multiplayer (same when they discussed Nacatl War-Pride, which IIRC was a FS preview). That alone is telling us they aren't slating this card for competitive constructed play. Wizards doesn't just cater to constructed tournament play - its previews (and cards) run the gamut of player and game types, so it's not fair to moan that we aren't being given an exceptional constructed card. We were shown Teeg yesterday, after all.
Phil
I'm not sure what you mean. Dread only affects creatures that deal you damage. Vigor prevents damage to your creatures.
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