4 of this guy and a Sligh-esque counter curve? (Rune Snags, Cryptic Command, Cancel, Delay, etc etc, ad nauseum) I think we can pull him off in mono-U.
Cheers,
Austin
Yep, I totally agree.
I'll be getting 4 Cryptic Command and 3-4 Guile.
Fill in with some of the new counters, some old counters, teferi, mage of Zahfir, Venser, shaper Savant, Evacuation Ponder, possibly Think Twice, and then everycounter in standard.
I think the key to this guy is evacuation the turn before...
I think I will be running Mono-U with just enough B to flashback MyStiCalTEaCHinGS...
Right, and that's why it's good to have Flying - it is more likely to help you when you're behind, since it can also stop a Flying attacker. Vesuvan Shapeshifter is especially problematic, since it becomes a 6 power attacker that you can't block at all.
Stopping a flying attacker is all well and good, but the point is that a flying attacker shouldn't BE there. Counter/bounce should have dealt with most, if not all, creatures by the time you're ready to drop this. And then, even if you allow for what some flying variant of this could do defensively, it's just going to lead to a standoff, since you're presumably lower in life total than your opponent.
The Flyer is strictly better! Flying is better than the evasion ability, I mean...the card itself isn't strictly better, and I understand that the counterspell ability can make this guy better to have on the table, but as far as creature combat goes, the Djinn is strictly better. They work exactly the same if they sit back as blockers, but if you want to start attacking (maybe you played another creature that can hold back the Elephants) the Flyer just kills the opponent in 4 turns and there's nothing the tokens can do to stop it. Guile, on the other hand, will trade with 2 tokens if it attacks, and then depending on the life totals and what's in your hand you may or may not be in a position to race the remaining token with your other creature. Two Maelstrom Djinns can kill the opponent in 3 turns without ever failing to leave back a blocker. That's far better than what two Guiles, or even one Guile + one Djinn can do.
Oh come on... It's better in every situation? My opponent has any sort of flying regenerator out and the flying version of this is neutralized. That's kind of why I like this sort of evasion, because you're not expecting your opponent to have many creatures out. The evasion is directly synergistic with its second ability and with the type of deck that would want to run this. You'll be stealing their creatures if they try to play them to block this, remember?
Right, but that's because of the other ability. I'm only arguing that Guile would be better if it had Flying instead of "can't be blocked except by three or more creatures." Obviously the counterspell ability can make it better than a Mahamoti.
I understand, but I think you're attempting to evaluate the two abilities this card has too far apart from one another. A 6/6 with "can't be blocked by less than 4 creatures" and a 6/6 with flying, I'll take the flyer almost any day of the week. But a 6/6 with its particular evasion AND its other ability is still a home run. And while we could argue back and forth that flying is better than this or not, the fact remains that there's no analog to this card in Magic when you add in the factor of the second ability.
Yes, that's the same thing that happens if either one sits back to block. It has no relevance to which evasion ability is better.
I think I was attempting to speak more to the "being behind" part of your scenario. That is a nightmare situation for a control deck, I think you'd agree?
You're making it sound like the opponent gets a free Time Stretch. You're still playing the game during those two turns, and taking turns of your own in between them, regardless of which creature you have. If you really worry about giving the opponent extra turns, you should play the creature that's better at killing the opponent faster: the flyer.
This is where the theoretical conversation deviates from reality too far to be of use. If we're talking about the abstract case of a flying version of Guile, then yes, in this situation it's obviously better. But realistically, we don't have that. Are you arguing that flying would be a better evasive ability on this card, and therefore we shouldn't use what we have? Are you arguing that we should stick to control finishers with flying? I honestly don't really understand where you're going with that.
Realistically, your deck (your MUC deck) is going to be tuned to deal with manageable numbers of creatures, whether that be by targeted bounce (Venser, Riftwing, Snapback) or Evacuation-type effects, or destruction (the rare Pongify or Psi Blast). Once those bounced creatures try and come back, that second ability is right there to help you, and the evasive ability is there to help in terms of getting across the table given that your opponent shouldn't have many creatures out. If your opponent does have a lot of creatures out and you're unable to stop them (to the point where Guile HAS to play combat defense), you're probably losing. And you'd probably be losing even if it flew.
Obviously neither Flying nor Guile's evasion ability makes it any better at blocking Elephant tokens, and that isn't what I meant when I brought it up; I meant that a Flyer is better at attacking into three elephants (or a single Thelonite Hermit, or a bunch of Goblins). If you want to figure out which evasion ability is better, you have to look at the situations where they work differently. The most important of those situations is when you're facing down an opposing Flyer or Vesuvan Shapeshifter, and in that case the Maelstrom Djinn is clearly better. The only other time the abilities are different in value is when you go on the offensive - something you shouldn't do until you've stabilized the board already. And when you do get around to attacking, it isn't clear which evasion ability is superior; it just depends on exactly what creatures are on the board at the time.
I didn't understand where you were going with the Shapeshifter argument in the last post, but I get it now. I still don't really see why it's a big problem. VS doesn't get run in aggro decks, the only one really using it right now is a combo deck, and if it manages to lock you down, it wouldn't matter what sort of evasion this has. To the point of Vesuvan being able to race faster with Guile's current ability, that's true, I suppose (a lot of it depends on who attacks who first and who's at what life, but I digress), but what precludes you from being able to do to the Vesuvan what you'd do to any creature (bounce, counter, etc)? I know I've said it a lot in this post, but blue has monotonous answers for creatures...
I know I brought up the Maelstrom Djinn, so forgive me for throwing it back at you, but do you honestly thing MD makes a better finisher for MUC than Guile?
As a final point, I know it's fairly easy to negate this evasion, but I honestly think it's equally easy to negate flying as well. The idea with any sort of evasive creature is to build your deck to maximize its evasive capabilities (and synergistically, of course, keep your butt alive). That goes doubly so with control deck finishers like this. With so many flying creatures worth playing in standard, in the abstract, I'm not sure the flying one has a dead lock on being better, as compared to the one we have.
Check out my Guile.dec thread in the "New Card Forum". I started playtesting and...well...nice..to say the least. And Jace as a card-drawing engine...also nice.
I found that, as far as keys go, either holding Guile like you would any fat finisher (until turn 7 or 8..or even later...as long as you've got other answers, you're okay..lol) or casting him with Pact of Negation backup (moneycard..;) ) works fine. Also...Looter il-Kor and this guy is nice...lets you draw into threats and discard Guile without really "losing" a card...:). (Thanks Machius..for pointing out that nice litte interaction.)
Oh...and Cryptic Command....soooo money. So many answers...so little cardboard. Why can't I run 8 of those things? lol
just as an experiment, try your Guile.dec and replace your Guile's with Mahamotti Djinn and see if the deck does any better or worse or about the same.
It probably finishes about the same...but without the flair of finishing with a Terror and a Damnation RFG'd to be played at will.
And actually...there was one instance where a Delayed threat would have had to have been hard-countered later if not for being RFG'd with Guile.
I like it...it's the same cost as the Djinn, but with a far better ability and it still has evasion. Even if the ability winds up only mattering once in a hundred games..it's an inherently better card.
Stopping a flying attacker is all well and good, but the point is that a flying attacker shouldn't BE there. Counter/bounce should have dealt with most, if not all, creatures by the time you're ready to drop this.
That's exactly why the flyer is good! Because it can help you dig your way out of bad situations!
And then, even if you allow for what some flying variant of this could do defensively, it's just going to lead to a standoff, since you're presumably lower in life total than your opponent.
Yes, and a standoff is preferable to taking a bunch of damage from flyers, isn't it?
Oh come on... It's better in every situation?
No, when I said "strictly better" I was referring only to the context of the situation where the opponent has 3 Elephants. In that situation, nothing about "three-headedness" is better than Flying. In retrospect, "strictly better" wasn't a good choice of words, because I was using it to mean something other than its most common usage.
That's kind of why I like this sort of evasion, because you're not expecting your opponent to have many creatures out. The evasion is directly synergistic with its second ability and with the type of deck that would want to run this. You'll be stealing their creatures if they try to play them to block this, remember?
If everything is going as planned, then the opponent won't have any flyers to block your flyers either. However, a flyer of your own is better mainly because most of the time, not everything else will go the way you want it to.
I understand, but I think you're attempting to evaluate the two abilities this card has too far apart from one another. A 6/6 with "can't be blocked by less than 4 creatures" and a 6/6 with flying, I'll take the flyer almost any day of the week. But a 6/6 with its particular evasion AND its other ability is still a home run. And while we could argue back and forth that flying is better than this or not, the fact remains that there's no analog to this card in Magic when you add in the factor of the second ability.
Right, I agree. However, the second ability simply isn't very important in any evaluation of this card, because an evasive 6/6 plus a handful of counters should equal a win anyways, unless of course your opponent has you on a clock already with a creature you can't block. Granted, there will be occasions when that ability is gamebreaking, but it's really the very definition of "win-more."
I think I was attempting to speak more to the "being behind" part of your scenario. That is a nightmare situation for a control deck, I think you'd agree?
It's certainly far from ideal, but it's really not a nightmare if you have a way to contain it. Typical control-deck fatties will do more to help you out than Guile will. I'd honestly rather have a Serra Sphinx, because at least it puts the opponent on a clock without letting your guard down, and is going to be just as unstoppable if you can back it up with counters, plus it's cheaper.
Are you arguing that flying would be a better evasive ability on this card, and therefore we shouldn't use what we have? Are you arguing that we should stick to control finishers with flying? I honestly don't really understand where you're going with that.
I'm arguing against your statement that "It's got evasion that's far stronger than flying"
Realistically, your deck (your MUC deck) is going to be tuned to deal with manageable numbers of creatures, whether that be by targeted bounce (Venser, Riftwing, Snapback) or Evacuation-type effects, or destruction (the rare Pongify or Psi Blast). Once those bounced creatures try and come back, that second ability is right there to help you, and the evasive ability is there to help in terms of getting across the table given that your opponent shouldn't have many creatures out. If your opponent does have a lot of creatures out and you're unable to stop them (to the point where Guile HAS to play combat defense), you're probably losing.
Right. All of this is true regardless of which evasion ability it has.
And you'd probably be losing even if it flew.
Unless, of course, those attackers have flying. Flying will only sometimes save you from attackers, but Guile's evasion never will.
VS doesn't get run in aggro decks, the only one really using it right now is a combo deck, and if it manages to lock you down, it wouldn't matter what sort of evasion this has.
Right, but VS is also a legitimate win condition unto itself. Pickles decks don't need to lock you down to win, especially if their VS randomly becomes a 6/6 unblockable.
To the point of Vesuvan being able to race faster with Guile's current ability, that's true, I suppose (a lot of it depends on who attacks who first and who's at what life, but I digress), but what precludes you from being able to do to the Vesuvan what you'd do to any creature (bounce, counter, etc)?
If you already have an answer for everything the opponent plays, then it doesn't matter what win condition you play. You can win with a Cloud Sprite. However, a control deck wants a win condition that complements your game plan and does good things for you when you need it most. In other words, Meloku is still great even when you don't have all the answers already. Guile isn't. Mahamoti is somewhere in between.
I know I brought up the Maelstrom Djinn, so forgive me for throwing it back at you, but do you honestly thing MD makes a better finisher for MUC than Guile?
No, but that's primarily because of the 8 mana casting cost. I do honestly think that Serra Sphinx is about equally good as Guile, though. I doubt I'd actually play either one, but I'll probably give Guile a try anyways, just in case it surprises me.
As a final point, I know it's fairly easy to negate this evasion, but I honestly think it's equally easy to negate flying as well. The idea with any sort of evasive creature is to build your deck to maximize its evasive capabilities (and synergistically, of course, keep your butt alive). That goes doubly so with control deck finishers like this.
I have to disagree that control decks care more about maximizing evasion. They care far more about just staying alive, because eventually their superior resources will overwhelm the opponent. That's why they use things like Urza's Factory. Flying in a control deck is honestly more about just blocking opposing flyers than about getting past opposing blockers. Contrast this with White Weenie decks that play flyers primarily to get around opposing defenses.
With so many flying creatures worth playing in standard, in the abstract, I'm not sure the flying one has a dead lock on being better, as compared to the one we have.
But that's exactly why it's better! You need to be able to block those flyers!
Quote from metamorph »
just as an experiment, try your Guile.dec and replace your Guile's with Mahamotti Djinn and see if the deck does any better or worse or about the same.
I strongly suspect it would do about the same.
Quote from Old SchoolMTG »
It probably finishes about the same...but without the flair of finishing with a Terror and a Damnation RFG'd to be played at will.
That's "win-more" in a nutshell.
And actually...there was one instance where a Delayed threat would have had to have been hard-countered later if not for being RFG'd with Guile.
It has decent synergy with Delay, true. Even so, if you counter a spell with your win condition out and then don't lose the game within the next 3 turns, that's very likely a checkmark in the win column anyways.
The way you phrased that also makes it sound like you had the hard counter ready anyways, so it probably didn't affect the outcome of even that one single game.
I like it...it's the same cost as the Djinn, but with a far better ability and it still has evasion. Even if the ability winds up only mattering once in a hundred games..it's an inherently better card.
I'm sure the Djinn's ability to block flyers will come up far more than one in a hundred games, and that it will win you a decent proportion of those games just by being a better blocker. Because of that, I really can't agree that Guile is "inherently" better. And really, just the fact that we can have a legitimate argument about whether this card is better than a Mahamoti should tell you that it isn't anything special.
Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
You and you're opponent are both at 5 life. You have Guile, they have two Mahamotis. Which evasion ability do you want?
You can tailor situations to make anything better. The question is, which is better more often? I think you know.
While this seems good, I'm kinda meh on it. It's effect is powerful, but it says "play alot of couterspells." It seems so, unfun. As if we need more reasons to hate Blue.
seems as though blue was hated enough to make the planeswalker suck.
whereas it seems all the other colors are good to great.
i personaly think this guy is fine. hes twice as good a finisher as skeletal or tombstalker. and its only a matter of opinion that his ability is "unfun"
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it's a fools race to run if all is lost to be won..
i suppose you could argue that all day..
he has to resolve, he has to live, and to be sub parr, you have to give your opponent cards. i guess i missed the boat on this one.
the fact is, blue gets hated on hard and in light of the fact most blue cards are watered down. why do you think the U PW doesnt take extra turns,bounce perminants,impulse,counter spells.. i mean theres infinatly beter things that this guy could do for -10.
in a limited tournament. you would be dead by the time the blue one "decks" your opponent. card advantage..
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it's a fools race to run if all is lost to be won..
;2232471']i suppose you could argue that all day..
he has to resolve, he has to live, and to be sub parr, you have to give your opponent cards. i guess i missed the boat on this one.
the fact is, blue gets hated on hard and in light of the fact most blue cards are watered down. why do you think the U PW doesnt take extra turns,bounce perminants,impulse,counter spells.. i mean theres infinatly beter things that this guy could do for -10.
in a limited tournament. you would be dead by the time the blue one "decks" your opponent. card advantage..
He has to give your opponent one card when he comes down to get out of the range of a good amount of burn. After that you can just make him a one sided Howling Mine that can be killed off by burn/creatures that aren't hitting you or your own creatures. If you really care that much about him staying around for a long time, then every couple of turns you get a card and so does your opponent.
He's cheap enough to come down early, and he's pretty much disposable, you can always just play a new one in the late game if you need to (he is cheap enough to play and leave mana open for counters easily).
His "big ability" is fairly worthless in general, but his other abilities make up for it.
;2232471']i suppose you could argue that all day..
he has to resolve, he has to live, and to be sub parr, you have to give your opponent cards. i guess i missed the boat on this one.
the fact is, blue gets hated on hard and in light of the fact most blue cards are watered down. why do you think the U PW doesnt take extra turns,bounce perminants,impulse,counter spells.. i mean theres infinatly beter things that this guy could do for -10.
in a limited tournament. you would be dead by the time the blue one "decks" your opponent. card advantage..
Let's see... Counterspells, no can't do it. Planeswalkers are sorcery speed abilities.
Bounce, yeah, that'd be possible... but then there'd be no way this guy would remain in play more than a turn, because it'd be so freakin annoying. As he is, he keeps the opponent from being too angry at him, while still feeding you counterspells.
Extra Turns - HELL NO. That'd be BROKEN. The blue counterspell is the easiest to charge up (both because of the +2 ability, and because blue actually has spells that can charge him up) so it'd be the easiest to get what is basically a free time walk. (I say free because you're getting other abilities to charge him up, so they'd make up for his mana cost).
Now then, if you're playing a U/x control deck, and can't stop your opponent from getting 5 damage through to you (yes, 5... since you play him, don't pass priority, then activate the first ability), then you need to re-think your choice to play control. You have access to white splashes for Wrath and condemn (not to mention Ajani for life gain), black splashes for Damnation and spot removal (and Liliana for repeated discard), Green splashes for blockers (and Garruk for untapping for counter mana, and call of the herd-esque tokens) or red splashes for burn to take out creatures that hit the table.
As for blue, you have counters, you have bounce, you have the means to kill creatures too nowdays. You have blockers, you have all sorts of tools to stop damage getting through to your planeswalker. Not to mention that every damage you stop with Jace, you're not taking yourself.
Trust me, Jace is gonna see more play than probably at least Ajani and Chandra in constructed. Possibly Liliana too. Only one I think will see more widespread play than Liliana and Jace is Garruk.
EDIT: As a note, if you can lay down two Rings of Brighthearth and then trigger Jace's big ability, you just won the game
Hehehe, it's funny with Temporal Extortion and friends. Even if they pay they life, you get to play it again for free, since it's your ability that's countering it.
It's important to note, this card does not force you to play the card you counter. You "may" play the spell. A lot of posts seem to indicate people aren't reading that very important aspect of this card.
Although I personally love this dude, it really can't be denied that he joins the ranks of old school has-beens such as Ernham Djinn, Serra Angel, and Sengir Vampire.
Getting reprinted is the old icons' retirement home. Sigh.
Anyway, my point is that Mahamoti Djinn is really not a card worth considering, and as such shouldn't be a factor to determine if a creature with the same mana cost is good or not.
If it's real and accurate, it's definitely better than Tidal Kraken by two mana... 6/6 basically unblockable for 6? Not bad!
I would probably play it in a casual constructed deck that didn't run any counterspells. It's simply a very efficient blue beatstick with evasion. Up until recently, even green didn't get creatures this good.
The thing that confuses me is, this *should* enable you to steal copies of spells and copies of cards. State-Based effects won't be checked during the resolution of your counterspell, so the copy of a spell or copy of a card will remain in RFG for you to play.
Edit: As of right now, you CAN steal copies of anything you counter and they won't cease to exist from being RFG temporarily. There's a specific rule (216.4 A token that has left play can't come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked.) that prevents tokens from doing this trick with Momentary Blink, but there's no rule, at least yet, that prevents copies of anything ceasing to exist until State-Based effects are checked. So unless, or until, they make a rule like that for copies of things, this will work.
Anyways, I like Guile. It's certainly not a card that can go into just any deck, but it's a card that a deck can be built around. I plan on using it with Counterbalance. How much will that mess with your opponent's heads? It's bad enough that they'd have to wonder if you have a counterspell in hand AND if you're tapped out, whether the Pact of Negation is there. But when they ALSO have to worry about whether the top card of your library is going to equal the casting cost of their spell? Wicked. Plus as a lot of people are saying, this card is best used with Teferi. Which ties into my using Counterbalance with Guile since I could possibly counter a spell for one blue mana by playing Sage of Epityr. And everyone thought Counterbalance was only good with Sensei's Divening Top. I certainly think this is a decent, if not great, replacement for it (Though, I'll always prefer the Top to it).
Cheers,
Austin
Yep, I totally agree.
I'll be getting 4 Cryptic Command and 3-4 Guile.
Fill in with some of the new counters, some old counters, teferi, mage of Zahfir, Venser, shaper Savant, Evacuation Ponder, possibly Think Twice, and then everycounter in standard.
I think the key to this guy is evacuation the turn before...
I think I will be running Mono-U with just enough B to flashback MyStiCalTEaCHinGS...
I love UUUUUU!!!!
EDH: WEight-and-a-half-tailsW
EDH: U/ Dralnu, Lich Lord B/
Extended:U/ Fish U/
Stopping a flying attacker is all well and good, but the point is that a flying attacker shouldn't BE there. Counter/bounce should have dealt with most, if not all, creatures by the time you're ready to drop this. And then, even if you allow for what some flying variant of this could do defensively, it's just going to lead to a standoff, since you're presumably lower in life total than your opponent.
Oh come on... It's better in every situation? My opponent has any sort of flying regenerator out and the flying version of this is neutralized. That's kind of why I like this sort of evasion, because you're not expecting your opponent to have many creatures out. The evasion is directly synergistic with its second ability and with the type of deck that would want to run this. You'll be stealing their creatures if they try to play them to block this, remember?
I understand, but I think you're attempting to evaluate the two abilities this card has too far apart from one another. A 6/6 with "can't be blocked by less than 4 creatures" and a 6/6 with flying, I'll take the flyer almost any day of the week. But a 6/6 with its particular evasion AND its other ability is still a home run. And while we could argue back and forth that flying is better than this or not, the fact remains that there's no analog to this card in Magic when you add in the factor of the second ability.
I think I was attempting to speak more to the "being behind" part of your scenario. That is a nightmare situation for a control deck, I think you'd agree?
This is where the theoretical conversation deviates from reality too far to be of use. If we're talking about the abstract case of a flying version of Guile, then yes, in this situation it's obviously better. But realistically, we don't have that. Are you arguing that flying would be a better evasive ability on this card, and therefore we shouldn't use what we have? Are you arguing that we should stick to control finishers with flying? I honestly don't really understand where you're going with that.
Realistically, your deck (your MUC deck) is going to be tuned to deal with manageable numbers of creatures, whether that be by targeted bounce (Venser, Riftwing, Snapback) or Evacuation-type effects, or destruction (the rare Pongify or Psi Blast). Once those bounced creatures try and come back, that second ability is right there to help you, and the evasive ability is there to help in terms of getting across the table given that your opponent shouldn't have many creatures out. If your opponent does have a lot of creatures out and you're unable to stop them (to the point where Guile HAS to play combat defense), you're probably losing. And you'd probably be losing even if it flew.
I didn't understand where you were going with the Shapeshifter argument in the last post, but I get it now. I still don't really see why it's a big problem. VS doesn't get run in aggro decks, the only one really using it right now is a combo deck, and if it manages to lock you down, it wouldn't matter what sort of evasion this has. To the point of Vesuvan being able to race faster with Guile's current ability, that's true, I suppose (a lot of it depends on who attacks who first and who's at what life, but I digress), but what precludes you from being able to do to the Vesuvan what you'd do to any creature (bounce, counter, etc)? I know I've said it a lot in this post, but blue has monotonous answers for creatures...
I know I brought up the Maelstrom Djinn, so forgive me for throwing it back at you, but do you honestly thing MD makes a better finisher for MUC than Guile?
As a final point, I know it's fairly easy to negate this evasion, but I honestly think it's equally easy to negate flying as well. The idea with any sort of evasive creature is to build your deck to maximize its evasive capabilities (and synergistically, of course, keep your butt alive). That goes doubly so with control deck finishers like this. With so many flying creatures worth playing in standard, in the abstract, I'm not sure the flying one has a dead lock on being better, as compared to the one we have.
-E
Check out my Guile.dec thread in the "New Card Forum". I started playtesting and...well...nice..to say the least. And Jace as a card-drawing engine...also nice.
I found that, as far as keys go, either holding Guile like you would any fat finisher (until turn 7 or 8..or even later...as long as you've got other answers, you're okay..lol) or casting him with Pact of Negation backup (moneycard..;) ) works fine. Also...Looter il-Kor and this guy is nice...lets you draw into threats and discard Guile without really "losing" a card...:). (Thanks Machius..for pointing out that nice litte interaction.)
Oh...and Cryptic Command....soooo money. So many answers...so little cardboard. Why can't I run 8 of those things? lol
Cheers,
Austin
And actually...there was one instance where a Delayed threat would have had to have been hard-countered later if not for being RFG'd with Guile.
I like it...it's the same cost as the Djinn, but with a far better ability and it still has evasion. Even if the ability winds up only mattering once in a hundred games..it's an inherently better card.
Cheers,
Austin
That's exactly why the flyer is good! Because it can help you dig your way out of bad situations!
Yes, and a standoff is preferable to taking a bunch of damage from flyers, isn't it?
No, when I said "strictly better" I was referring only to the context of the situation where the opponent has 3 Elephants. In that situation, nothing about "three-headedness" is better than Flying. In retrospect, "strictly better" wasn't a good choice of words, because I was using it to mean something other than its most common usage.
If everything is going as planned, then the opponent won't have any flyers to block your flyers either. However, a flyer of your own is better mainly because most of the time, not everything else will go the way you want it to.
Right, I agree. However, the second ability simply isn't very important in any evaluation of this card, because an evasive 6/6 plus a handful of counters should equal a win anyways, unless of course your opponent has you on a clock already with a creature you can't block. Granted, there will be occasions when that ability is gamebreaking, but it's really the very definition of "win-more."
It's certainly far from ideal, but it's really not a nightmare if you have a way to contain it. Typical control-deck fatties will do more to help you out than Guile will. I'd honestly rather have a Serra Sphinx, because at least it puts the opponent on a clock without letting your guard down, and is going to be just as unstoppable if you can back it up with counters, plus it's cheaper.
I'm arguing against your statement that "It's got evasion that's far stronger than flying"
Right. All of this is true regardless of which evasion ability it has.
Unless, of course, those attackers have flying. Flying will only sometimes save you from attackers, but Guile's evasion never will.
Right, but VS is also a legitimate win condition unto itself. Pickles decks don't need to lock you down to win, especially if their VS randomly becomes a 6/6 unblockable.
If you already have an answer for everything the opponent plays, then it doesn't matter what win condition you play. You can win with a Cloud Sprite. However, a control deck wants a win condition that complements your game plan and does good things for you when you need it most. In other words, Meloku is still great even when you don't have all the answers already. Guile isn't. Mahamoti is somewhere in between.
No, but that's primarily because of the 8 mana casting cost. I do honestly think that Serra Sphinx is about equally good as Guile, though. I doubt I'd actually play either one, but I'll probably give Guile a try anyways, just in case it surprises me.
I have to disagree that control decks care more about maximizing evasion. They care far more about just staying alive, because eventually their superior resources will overwhelm the opponent. That's why they use things like Urza's Factory. Flying in a control deck is honestly more about just blocking opposing flyers than about getting past opposing blockers. Contrast this with White Weenie decks that play flyers primarily to get around opposing defenses.
But that's exactly why it's better! You need to be able to block those flyers!
I strongly suspect it would do about the same.
That's "win-more" in a nutshell.
It has decent synergy with Delay, true. Even so, if you counter a spell with your win condition out and then don't lose the game within the next 3 turns, that's very likely a checkmark in the win column anyways.
The way you phrased that also makes it sound like you had the hard counter ready anyways, so it probably didn't affect the outcome of even that one single game.
I'm sure the Djinn's ability to block flyers will come up far more than one in a hundred games, and that it will win you a decent proportion of those games just by being a better blocker. Because of that, I really can't agree that Guile is "inherently" better. And really, just the fact that we can have a legitimate argument about whether this card is better than a Mahamoti should tell you that it isn't anything special.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
You and you're opponent are both at 5 life. You have Guile, they have two Mahamotis. Which evasion ability do you want?
You can tailor situations to make anything better. The question is, which is better more often? I think you know.
*Flies away cackling*
seems as though blue was hated enough to make the planeswalker suck.
whereas it seems all the other colors are good to great.
i personaly think this guy is fine. hes twice as good a finisher as skeletal or tombstalker. and its only a matter of opinion that his ability is "unfun"
he has to resolve, he has to live, and to be sub parr, you have to give your opponent cards. i guess i missed the boat on this one.
the fact is, blue gets hated on hard and in light of the fact most blue cards are watered down. why do you think the U PW doesnt take extra turns,bounce perminants,impulse,counter spells.. i mean theres infinatly beter things that this guy could do for -10.
in a limited tournament. you would be dead by the time the blue one "decks" your opponent. card advantage..
He has to give your opponent one card when he comes down to get out of the range of a good amount of burn. After that you can just make him a one sided Howling Mine that can be killed off by burn/creatures that aren't hitting you or your own creatures. If you really care that much about him staying around for a long time, then every couple of turns you get a card and so does your opponent.
He's cheap enough to come down early, and he's pretty much disposable, you can always just play a new one in the late game if you need to (he is cheap enough to play and leave mana open for counters easily).
His "big ability" is fairly worthless in general, but his other abilities make up for it.
Let's see... Counterspells, no can't do it. Planeswalkers are sorcery speed abilities.
Bounce, yeah, that'd be possible... but then there'd be no way this guy would remain in play more than a turn, because it'd be so freakin annoying. As he is, he keeps the opponent from being too angry at him, while still feeding you counterspells.
Extra Turns - HELL NO. That'd be BROKEN. The blue counterspell is the easiest to charge up (both because of the +2 ability, and because blue actually has spells that can charge him up) so it'd be the easiest to get what is basically a free time walk. (I say free because you're getting other abilities to charge him up, so they'd make up for his mana cost).
Now then, if you're playing a U/x control deck, and can't stop your opponent from getting 5 damage through to you (yes, 5... since you play him, don't pass priority, then activate the first ability), then you need to re-think your choice to play control. You have access to white splashes for Wrath and condemn (not to mention Ajani for life gain), black splashes for Damnation and spot removal (and Liliana for repeated discard), Green splashes for blockers (and Garruk for untapping for counter mana, and call of the herd-esque tokens) or red splashes for burn to take out creatures that hit the table.
As for blue, you have counters, you have bounce, you have the means to kill creatures too nowdays. You have blockers, you have all sorts of tools to stop damage getting through to your planeswalker. Not to mention that every damage you stop with Jace, you're not taking yourself.
Trust me, Jace is gonna see more play than probably at least Ajani and Chandra in constructed. Possibly Liliana too. Only one I think will see more widespread play than Liliana and Jace is Garruk.
EDIT: As a note, if you can lay down two Rings of Brighthearth and then trigger Jace's big ability, you just won the game
It's important to note, this card does not force you to play the card you counter. You "may" play the spell. A lot of posts seem to indicate people aren't reading that very important aspect of this card.
-Pharmalade.
Banner by Topher!
Although I personally love this dude, it really can't be denied that he joins the ranks of old school has-beens such as Ernham Djinn, Serra Angel, and Sengir Vampire.
Getting reprinted is the old icons' retirement home. Sigh.
Anyway, my point is that Mahamoti Djinn is really not a card worth considering, and as such shouldn't be a factor to determine if a creature with the same mana cost is good or not.
Keiga, the Tide Star is your man. Or dragon.
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
Artist Strikes Fish
1. Evoke something big.
2. Counter it with something cheap like Mana Tithe or an ability.
3. Play it for free, non-evoked.
Also, I think this+the storm counterspell from a while back=infinite storm count.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I would probably play it in a casual constructed deck that didn't run any counterspells. It's simply a very efficient blue beatstick with evasion. Up until recently, even green didn't get creatures this good.
.
A simple Boomerang costs 2 as well though.
Edit: As of right now, you CAN steal copies of anything you counter and they won't cease to exist from being RFG temporarily. There's a specific rule (216.4 A token that has left play can't come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked.) that prevents tokens from doing this trick with Momentary Blink, but there's no rule, at least yet, that prevents copies of anything ceasing to exist until State-Based effects are checked. So unless, or until, they make a rule like that for copies of things, this will work.
Anyways, I like Guile. It's certainly not a card that can go into just any deck, but it's a card that a deck can be built around. I plan on using it with Counterbalance. How much will that mess with your opponent's heads? It's bad enough that they'd have to wonder if you have a counterspell in hand AND if you're tapped out, whether the Pact of Negation is there. But when they ALSO have to worry about whether the top card of your library is going to equal the casting cost of their spell? Wicked. Plus as a lot of people are saying, this card is best used with Teferi. Which ties into my using Counterbalance with Guile since I could possibly counter a spell for one blue mana by playing Sage of Epityr. And everyone thought Counterbalance was only good with Sensei's Divening Top. I certainly think this is a decent, if not great, replacement for it (Though, I'll always prefer the Top to it).