You do realise that in most examples it comes into play untapped and won't sacrifise itself since it it a Kithkin itself?
Fixing this by saing other Kithkin just doesn't seem right.
Yeah, I think, "you control a Kithkin creature" would be the correct wording. Although with the comes into play one, I believe that checks before the land itself is in play, so it couldn't count itself.
The main thing is I think it will def be type
Tribal Land - Kithkin
if they are going with tribal themed lands
I'm not so sure if I'm very excited about these previews. The Timber Protector is decent, but that's as far as it goes. Chandra is extremely powerful, and by far the best planeswalker we've seen by far. However, if you can't keep her on the field or she's hit by one incinerate, she becomes completely useless. After all, her first two abilities are near useless. Finally, the way I see it, I find Gaddock okay if it has cards which it can prevent. But as far as I'm concerned, it's not hard to remove a 2/2 and I can't think on the top of my head many spells that is competitive at 4 mana or higher (other than wrath and damnation).
I dont agree with all this planeswaker hate. I mean, even it she never his 8 counters, that means that you opponent has wasted burn spells just to delay her effects, or has been attacking it and not you. this means that they are expending their resources and you are getting card advantage based on their innability to decicivly deal with the 'walker. however, if it is saltblasted or boomeranged, that is bad for the 'walker. this is where the mono-red 'walker will be most suseptible to.
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"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
As for the treefolk, I find them all very boring, and this one is no exception. What a let down for Mark's first card, which is usually awesome.
I have to agree about the boring aspect of treefolk but i will say this
This card is far from a letdown.
Conspiracy everything you have to saprolings and life and limb makes all creatures you have indestructible play damnation to clear your opponents
side of the board and swing with all your land.
I don't think the Lava Axe comparison is fair. Chandra can do 6 damage to a creature the turn she comes into play. At 5 mana, that's a boon to red's creature removal.
Currently, my monored decks have faltered against fatties. I am looking forward to playing this card.
Guys, some of you seem to be over looking the fact that Chandra's 8 ability isnt a board clearer ala ***. Its one sided. It pretty much reads as 'Target Player loses the game'.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
if you can keep chancra untouched from your opponent (and his creatures) until the mainphase of the second turn after chandra came in play then you win, unless the rest of your deck is really crappy^^
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
oh my... Chandra is most likely going to be the Tarmogoyf of Lorwyn, as it started out useless, but will get gradually much better and figure out much strategies with her. Much fun to be had. G/R Garruk + Chandra FTW!!!
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Thank Heroes of the Plane for an awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
Standard RWBGFritesGBWR GBBG ZombiesBG
Extended:
lolno
Dunno if this has been mentioned, but this would definitely be:
Kithkin Manor
Tribal Land - Kithkin
Kithkin Manor comes into play tapped unless you control a Kithkin.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
or
Kithkin Manor
Tribal Land - Kithkin
When Kithkin Manor comes into play, if you don't control a Kithkin, sacrifice Kithkin Manor.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
or even
Kithkin Manor
Tribal Land - Kithkin
:symtap:: Add 1
If you control a Kithkin creature, Kithkin Manor gains:
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
or lastly, mabye,
Kithkin Manor
Tribal Land - Kithkin
Kithkin Manor comes into play tapped unless you control a Kithkin.
:symtap:: Add or to your mana pool.
Other options:
Merrow Pool
Tribal Land - Merfolk
Merrow Pool comes into play tapped unless you return a Merfolk you control to its owner's hand.
T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
These could even have tribe-specific effects. For instance:
Boggart Mire
Tribal Land - Goblin
Boggart Mire comes into play tapped unless you sacrifice a Goblin.
T: Add B or R to your mana pool.
And so on and so forth.
Phil, you DO realise that by Planeswalker Hoser, people mean that she stops any other planeswalker from making it to their 3rd ability (except maybe Jace because if his abilities good enough people might clockspin for it... heh) while eventually building to a force where she can just obliterate the opponent's 'walker along with every creature on the field.... right?
Read what I wrote again - the part where I note "no planeswalker in constructed has any business trying to use its super-ability". The big bangs are there for Limited and Timmy-appeal - no one will use them seriously (save perhaps for Garruk, for the sake of blowing him to Overrun in a Tarmogoyf deck, but even that's mainly just a way of getting a Planeswalker into the graveyard). This is why Chandra is so poor - people wax lyrical about how good her third ability is, without considering that the third ability is constructed-worthless. What people need to focus on is how good her primary abilities are, and as noted they fall some way below the power level of Garruk's or Liliana's. As for building up to her big ability, note the comments on how useless a turn 7 kill is for a red deck, not to mention how easy she is to stall - anything that can deal her 1 damage adds a full turn to the time it takes her to blow up. Armageddon Clock deals a lot of damage when it blows too, and no one plays that.
Not to mention your point with condemn... if Teeg's the only thing keeping a U/W control deck from nuking your board, why the HELL would you swing with him? Only an idiot throws their defences into the red zone of their own free will.
You didn't catch the sarcasm there? Teeg is definitely the one good card of this batch - people point out that there aren't many relevant spells he stops. True, but the ones he does stop are extremely relevant, and he's not limited to naming one.
And player burn is better than creature burn? Are you high? Creature removal (at least in limited) is of paramount importance or else stuff happens like people dropping a Spectral force and you're sitting there playing red with nothing big enough to kill it. burn ONLY to creatures is superior to burn ONLY to players in most cases, with burn to both, of course, being superior to both.
Again, read what I wrote in context. I've never denied that Chandra is a strong Limited card - all the planeswalkers are. But there are precious few creatures that you are going to want to deal 6 damage to, and if you're dealing any less Chandra is highly inefficient - 5 for Incinerate (2 as a card, instant speed, extra effect) or Lightning Blast (4 as a card, only 1 red mana requirement and instant speed). 6 damage to a player is a significant slice of the life total; 6 to a creature is overkill against anything bar Dread (and underkill for Spectral Force). High-T creatures you want to answer with a straight kill like Terror, if you can, not with burn. If I'm going to kill a giant creature with a 5 mana red spell, I'd rather they reprinted Fissure, and that's akin to Lava Axe in power level.
Chandra's second ability can be (1) a very, very slow semi-Pyroclasm, (2) a very slow dual incinerate, or (3) a single big burn. In all three cases it's overpriced at 5 mana - the only time hitting a creature for 6 is good value as a 3RR sorcery is when you have a creature that can take exactly 6 damage, without wasting any. Now, if her ability targeted players she could build up her loyalty count and use it as a finisher, like Blaze or Demonfire, but no one uses X spells to fry creatures. Chandra's hardly more efficient as a 5-for-6 creature-only than Blaze is as a 7-for-6 player or creature, and in the context of the game at that point, the anti-player finisher has more value than the 5-mana creature-kill.
[quote]No planeswalker in constructed has any business even trying to use its super 'bomb' ability, so losing loyalty is not a big issue unless they're so low they can't tutor/elephant/whatever.
I think with Chandra, the bomb ability is the whole point of the card. Hence the built in higher loyalty for casting cost. Yes, the fact that you have to wait 2 turns and hope to high heavens that nothing happens to Chandra does make the inevitable 10 point "boom" seem like unlikelyhood, but looking at Chandra from a design standpoint, I think that's what she was made to be: a ticking time bomb.
If Liliana is a well oiled gear in a Johnny's machine of a deck, and Garruk is as aggro as aggro can get (having an immediate effect when he hits the board), Chandra is a "hinder me or else I explodey" kinda card.
If you have Chandra in your deck and you're fighting against a deck that has burn in it you'll probably just sideboard out Chandra. If you're fighting against a creature based tribal deck, that only has effects like Temporal Isolation as it's form of "roadblock removal", then having Chandra in a heavy control deck makes sense -- somewhat. I mean, you can afford to wait right? And you yourself will have spells like Avalance Riders, Void, various assortments of direct damage, and Damnation. What's another two turns for a deck like that? Especially if you've stalled the board with something akin to Jokulhaups.
Having said all this, yes, I do agree with you that Chandra does seem weakest among the three revealed Planeswalkers thus far. However, I don't think she's total junk - she's just a primadona that needs careful deckbuilding to make her worth her mana cost - alas, her flaw.
I think with Chandra, the bomb ability is the whole point of the card.
I agree. Hence the card's uselessness for constructed play, which is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. No one denies that her super-ability is, well, super. Or that Liliana's is, come to that. But a card that revolves around trying to use that ability in competitive constructed play is simply not workable. No one seems all that impressed by Liliana. If her first ability read "+1 Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life" and her second "-2 Put target creature card from your graveyard on top of your library", no one would consider using her at all. But her more useful discard and tutor abilities are at least borderline playable for her cost. The third, powerful ability is simply ignored altogether.
Hence the built in higher loyalty for casting cost.
I don't think we can rate loyalty by casting cost in the same way as P/T - it's an arbitrary figure which dictates how useful her abilities are likely to be (i.e. how many tiimes she can use them, how much damage she can deal). You can't say "Wow, 6 loyalty for 5 - that's an efficient creature!" Unlike toughness, the value of loyalty is contingent on the way the rest of the card interacts with it. Garruk is only loyalty 4, but he can squeeze a lot more out of those points than this girl, because his abilities have a low loyalty cost and produce stronger effects. It's not like comparing a 0/4 with a 0/6, say.
She's got high loyalty because she's a red card and red cards want to build up steam and blow quickly, but if the main incentive for giving her loyalty 6 was to allow her to use her super-ability in two turns, why not simply make that cost less, say -6 and give her loyalty 4? I think the main reason she has loyalty 6 is to try and make her X spell ability work, but see above for my thoughts in that regard.
Yes, the fact that you have to wait 2 turns and hope to high heavens that nothing happens to Chandra does make the inevitable 10 point "boom" seem like unlikelyhood, but looking at Chandra from a design standpoint, I think that's what she was made to be: a ticking time bomb.
See the Armageddon Clock comment. "Ticking time bombs" in Magic (like, well, Time Bomb) have a history of being largely unplayable cards.
If you have Chandra in your deck and you're fighting against a deck that has burn in it you'll probably just sideboard out Chandra. If you're fighting against a creature based tribal deck, that only has effects like Temporal Isolation as it's form of "roadblock removal", then having Chandra in a heavy control deck makes sense -- somewhat. I mean, you can afford to wait right?
The flaw in this plan is that it fails to consider that you're playing a red deck. You want to win the game - do you actually want to play the waiting game your opponent's trying to force on you and sit around for seven turns, or would you rather go for straight burn and make the kill by turn 4 or 5? You're considering only whether you'd want this card against deck X, not whether you'd want it in the deck you're taking to beat deck X.
And you yourself will have spells like Avalance Riders, Void, various assortments of direct damage, and Damnation. What's another two turns for a deck like that?
Ask yourself - does a deck like that need another two turns? Does it have any need for Chandra for the win once it's waited those extra turns, or can it win reliably with what it has already? You're stretching to find a use for her by saying "yes, in these circumstances she can win the game". In the same circumstances Blaze could probably win the game as well, and likely more reliably.
Gaddock Teeg begs to be used in conjunction with discard. He is a great card, but you think people would learn from stuff like cranial extraction, jester's cap, pithing needle, shadowmage infiltrator(both times it came into print), extirpate, seismic mage and other such hyped cards when they come out.
I'm sure people have stated points like how many cards can potentially kill Teeg and how a number of dominant decks are virtually unaffected by him.
Don't get me wrong: Teeg is a rad card, but he isn't like freak out and start licking my screen and scream on forums as to how broken he is.
He provides disruption and serves as a great speedbump for a aggro/ctrl/disruption deck. If he is just on his own, with little other sources of disruption, he will be worthwhile, but not an auto-maindeck card.
I bet he'll combine well with 1u counters and stuff like that, should you not feel like playing black in a deck with him.
It appears that it's just local speculation that popped up because Future sight preivewed stuff from lorwyn. I can't really say it's anything other that speculation.
Quote from Ludd gang »
I don't think the lava axe comparison is fair. Chandra can do 6 damage to a creature the turn she comes into play. At 5 mana, that's a boon to reds creature removal.
Ever heard of Shivan Meteor? It'll take out any fatty you please, at the same manacost. (or less because of suspend)
and a card that finally cares about Goats
-Raelf Stemogg :2mana::symr::symb:
Legendary Creature - Goat Rigger
Tap an untapped goat you control: Assemble a contraption.
4/4
man i LMAO at this one. this thing is going to BREAK standard over its knee. who can beat the deadly combination of riggers goats, and MULTIPLE contraptions. tarmogoyf is screwed!
but on a serious note, i'm loving this set, ESPECIALLY DORAN. i doubt i'll be able to pick him up for 0.99 a set like i did tarmogoyfs though.
Khaldun
_____________
“Game over,” Lursen said. “Demon’s Horn.”
Demon’s Horn has a reputation in multiplayer games, Lursen said.“Usually if somebody in multiplayer plays a Demon’s Horn, we all just immediately attack that person, because he’s going to win,” Lursen said.
Gaddock is a strong disruption card...in GW. That alone makes him invaluable to GW decks. Although it is certainly true that he doesn't deal with everything, especially cards that deal with him....let's just think if GW became a dominant deck, with every GW aggro deck having Gaddock in it...what other decks will have to change.
In a nutshell...every deck will have to have sideboard/maindeck removal that costs less than 4. Obviously, the best choice for black decks will be Deathmark. However, in conjunction with other kinds of disruption...Gaddock becomes a literal beast. A tiny monster, but a monster nevertheless. This card will cause headaches for many a control player, and be an efficient body against other aggro decks. Hence, having at least 3 copies of this card in any GW aggro-based deck, is recommended.
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Yeah, I think, "you control a Kithkin creature" would be the correct wording. Although with the comes into play one, I believe that checks before the land itself is in play, so it couldn't count itself.
The main thing is I think it will def be type
Tribal Land - Kithkin
if they are going with tribal themed lands
Which I think is kinda cool.
Chandra is pretty good, since you can use her first ability to kill other planeswalkers.
The Protector doesn't strike me as a very as very creative - I think it's pretty boring, even though it may be powerful.
Thanks to Chizzad from Aether for the rockin' banner!
R Red Deck Wins
Decks under Construction:
BR Tombstalking
B The Rack
UB The Rack
I dont agree with all this planeswaker hate. I mean, even it she never his 8 counters, that means that you opponent has wasted burn spells just to delay her effects, or has been attacking it and not you. this means that they are expending their resources and you are getting card advantage based on their innability to decicivly deal with the 'walker. however, if it is saltblasted or boomeranged, that is bad for the 'walker. this is where the mono-red 'walker will be most suseptible to.
Tribute to Dr. Jeebus
Not a little Sheeple.
Does indestructible mean that they can't be killed by combat and spell damage or that they just can't be killed by spells that "destroy"
Thanks
Life's end, isn't it beautiful... its almost tragic.
I have to agree about the boring aspect of treefolk but i will say this
This card is far from a letdown.
Conspiracy everything you have to saprolings and life and limb makes all creatures you have indestructible play damnation to clear your opponents
side of the board and swing with all your land.
Currently, my monored decks have faltered against fatties. I am looking forward to playing this card.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
Thank Heroes of the Plane for an awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
Standard
RWBGFritesGBWR
GBBG ZombiesBG
Extended:
lolno
Gleemax shall take over the world. Go Gleemax.:D
Other options:
Merrow Pool
Tribal Land - Merfolk
Merrow Pool comes into play tapped unless you return a Merfolk you control to its owner's hand.
T: Add U or W to your mana pool.
These could even have tribe-specific effects. For instance:
Boggart Mire
Tribal Land - Goblin
Boggart Mire comes into play tapped unless you sacrifice a Goblin.
T: Add B or R to your mana pool.
And so on and so forth.
Read what I wrote again - the part where I note "no planeswalker in constructed has any business trying to use its super-ability". The big bangs are there for Limited and Timmy-appeal - no one will use them seriously (save perhaps for Garruk, for the sake of blowing him to Overrun in a Tarmogoyf deck, but even that's mainly just a way of getting a Planeswalker into the graveyard). This is why Chandra is so poor - people wax lyrical about how good her third ability is, without considering that the third ability is constructed-worthless. What people need to focus on is how good her primary abilities are, and as noted they fall some way below the power level of Garruk's or Liliana's. As for building up to her big ability, note the comments on how useless a turn 7 kill is for a red deck, not to mention how easy she is to stall - anything that can deal her 1 damage adds a full turn to the time it takes her to blow up. Armageddon Clock deals a lot of damage when it blows too, and no one plays that.
You didn't catch the sarcasm there? Teeg is definitely the one good card of this batch - people point out that there aren't many relevant spells he stops. True, but the ones he does stop are extremely relevant, and he's not limited to naming one.
Again, read what I wrote in context. I've never denied that Chandra is a strong Limited card - all the planeswalkers are. But there are precious few creatures that you are going to want to deal 6 damage to, and if you're dealing any less Chandra is highly inefficient - 5 for Incinerate (2 as a card, instant speed, extra effect) or Lightning Blast (4 as a card, only 1 red mana requirement and instant speed). 6 damage to a player is a significant slice of the life total; 6 to a creature is overkill against anything bar Dread (and underkill for Spectral Force). High-T creatures you want to answer with a straight kill like Terror, if you can, not with burn. If I'm going to kill a giant creature with a 5 mana red spell, I'd rather they reprinted Fissure, and that's akin to Lava Axe in power level.
Chandra's second ability can be (1) a very, very slow semi-Pyroclasm, (2) a very slow dual incinerate, or (3) a single big burn. In all three cases it's overpriced at 5 mana - the only time hitting a creature for 6 is good value as a 3RR sorcery is when you have a creature that can take exactly 6 damage, without wasting any. Now, if her ability targeted players she could build up her loyalty count and use it as a finisher, like Blaze or Demonfire, but no one uses X spells to fry creatures. Chandra's hardly more efficient as a 5-for-6 creature-only than Blaze is as a 7-for-6 player or creature, and in the context of the game at that point, the anti-player finisher has more value than the 5-mana creature-kill.
Phil
I think with Chandra, the bomb ability is the whole point of the card. Hence the built in higher loyalty for casting cost. Yes, the fact that you have to wait 2 turns and hope to high heavens that nothing happens to Chandra does make the inevitable 10 point "boom" seem like unlikelyhood, but looking at Chandra from a design standpoint, I think that's what she was made to be: a ticking time bomb.
If Liliana is a well oiled gear in a Johnny's machine of a deck, and Garruk is as aggro as aggro can get (having an immediate effect when he hits the board), Chandra is a "hinder me or else I explodey" kinda card.
If you have Chandra in your deck and you're fighting against a deck that has burn in it you'll probably just sideboard out Chandra. If you're fighting against a creature based tribal deck, that only has effects like Temporal Isolation as it's form of "roadblock removal", then having Chandra in a heavy control deck makes sense -- somewhat. I mean, you can afford to wait right? And you yourself will have spells like Avalance Riders, Void, various assortments of direct damage, and Damnation. What's another two turns for a deck like that? Especially if you've stalled the board with something akin to Jokulhaups.
Having said all this, yes, I do agree with you that Chandra does seem weakest among the three revealed Planeswalkers thus far. However, I don't think she's total junk - she's just a primadona that needs careful deckbuilding to make her worth her mana cost - alas, her flaw.
I agree. Hence the card's uselessness for constructed play, which is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. No one denies that her super-ability is, well, super. Or that Liliana's is, come to that. But a card that revolves around trying to use that ability in competitive constructed play is simply not workable. No one seems all that impressed by Liliana. If her first ability read "+1 Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life" and her second "-2 Put target creature card from your graveyard on top of your library", no one would consider using her at all. But her more useful discard and tutor abilities are at least borderline playable for her cost. The third, powerful ability is simply ignored altogether.
I don't think we can rate loyalty by casting cost in the same way as P/T - it's an arbitrary figure which dictates how useful her abilities are likely to be (i.e. how many tiimes she can use them, how much damage she can deal). You can't say "Wow, 6 loyalty for 5 - that's an efficient creature!" Unlike toughness, the value of loyalty is contingent on the way the rest of the card interacts with it. Garruk is only loyalty 4, but he can squeeze a lot more out of those points than this girl, because his abilities have a low loyalty cost and produce stronger effects. It's not like comparing a 0/4 with a 0/6, say.
She's got high loyalty because she's a red card and red cards want to build up steam and blow quickly, but if the main incentive for giving her loyalty 6 was to allow her to use her super-ability in two turns, why not simply make that cost less, say -6 and give her loyalty 4? I think the main reason she has loyalty 6 is to try and make her X spell ability work, but see above for my thoughts in that regard.
See the Armageddon Clock comment. "Ticking time bombs" in Magic (like, well, Time Bomb) have a history of being largely unplayable cards.
The flaw in this plan is that it fails to consider that you're playing a red deck. You want to win the game - do you actually want to play the waiting game your opponent's trying to force on you and sit around for seven turns, or would you rather go for straight burn and make the kill by turn 4 or 5? You're considering only whether you'd want this card against deck X, not whether you'd want it in the deck you're taking to beat deck X.
Ask yourself - does a deck like that need another two turns? Does it have any need for Chandra for the win once it's waited those extra turns, or can it win reliably with what it has already? You're stretching to find a use for her by saying "yes, in these circumstances she can win the game". In the same circumstances Blaze could probably win the game as well, and likely more reliably.
Phil
I'm sure people have stated points like how many cards can potentially kill Teeg and how a number of dominant decks are virtually unaffected by him.
Don't get me wrong: Teeg is a rad card, but he isn't like freak out and start licking my screen and scream on forums as to how broken he is.
He provides disruption and serves as a great speedbump for a aggro/ctrl/disruption deck. If he is just on his own, with little other sources of disruption, he will be worthwhile, but not an auto-maindeck card.
I bet he'll combine well with 1u counters and stuff like that, should you not feel like playing black in a deck with him.
It appears that it's just local speculation that popped up because Future sight preivewed stuff from lorwyn. I can't really say it's anything other that speculation.
Ever heard of Shivan Meteor? It'll take out any fatty you please, at the same manacost. (or less because of suspend)
-Raelf Stemogg :2mana::symr::symb:
Legendary Creature - Goat Rigger
Tap an untapped goat you control: Assemble a contraption.
4/4
man i LMAO at this one. this thing is going to BREAK standard over its knee. who can beat the deadly combination of riggers goats, and MULTIPLE contraptions. tarmogoyf is screwed!
but on a serious note, i'm loving this set, ESPECIALLY DORAN. i doubt i'll be able to pick him up for 0.99 a set like i did tarmogoyfs though.
_____________
“Game over,” Lursen said. “Demon’s Horn.”
Demon’s Horn has a reputation in multiplayer games, Lursen said.“Usually if somebody in multiplayer plays a Demon’s Horn, we all just immediately attack that person, because he’s going to win,” Lursen said.
In a nutshell...every deck will have to have sideboard/maindeck removal that costs less than 4. Obviously, the best choice for black decks will be Deathmark. However, in conjunction with other kinds of disruption...Gaddock becomes a literal beast. A tiny monster, but a monster nevertheless. This card will cause headaches for many a control player, and be an efficient body against other aggro decks. Hence, having at least 3 copies of this card in any GW aggro-based deck, is recommended.