I am amazed at the number of cards that have taken an old concept and made it constructed worthy. Shimmering Grotto > School of Unseen (?)
Does Shenanigans work with mill effects like dredge? That could be youch and maybe make Dakmor Wastes + Seismic Assault a fun deck.
The way it's worded yes. That's what I was thinking but for extended. Play this turn 2 and dredge back golgari Grave Trolls ad nauseum. I figure Gaea's Blessings + 4 Grave Trolls and a free discard outlet means you SHOULD be able to kill them almost immediately when you play this card. Magus of the Bazaar Maybe?
Hydro, you should not tease us like that! Haha. I am flippin drooling in wait to see the White Command over here. And a new Mana Drain with Clash?? Sign me up.
Yes, this is the biggest question: for the Greed do you repeat the draw 2 cards lose 2 life AND the clash or just the draw and lose? I believe it is both but I want to ask. And ppl that think that the card is meh or not playable, dudes what's wrong with you? lawl sry.
Yes, this is the biggest question: for the Greed do you repeat the draw 2 cards lose 2 life AND the clash or just the draw and lose? I believe it is both but I want to ask. And ppl that think that the card is meh or not playable, dudes what's wrong with you? lawl sry.
If the spoiler is correct then you repeat the draw, life loss, and clash...
This spell can draw you some MAJOR cards if you get lucky with the possiblity of winning the clash multiple times
.
Shenanigans is basically the new Goblin Sharpshooter, only better. With things like the goblin Shock and goblin Raise Dead, this thing is pretty well :banana::banana::banana:.
Both lands will see plenty of limited play.
I dunno about the draw one. I want to say it will be really good (I always liked Night's Whisper). We'll see.
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I'd like to have this shenanigan in play against a mill deck
Traumatize me? Glimpse me? Why thank you too, Sir!
Respond with Feast of Footbottom. Of course, they'd have to be nuts to Traumatize if you have Shenanigans in play.
After seeing Gaea's Blessing in TS, I wonder if we might see other "millworks" effects... I know R&D has bantered with the idea for years.
Hmmz, good idea.
A deck with 4 Shenanigans, 2 Blessings and something that will mill infinite times.
Do you have any ideas?
Maybe we should wait for the Lorwyn Spoiler!
I really hope that deck could be build It's like NarcoBridge, but different!
Not a fan. Not at all. I think it's almost a joke of a card. First off, 3B should buy a little bit more than 2 cards and a scry 1. Think of Phyrexian Arena, you got 1 card per turn for just 1 life, Bob was both a creature and accelerated your cards for life. This, well, I'll put it this way, look at the card Foresee. It costs the same, scrys 4, and lets you draw 2 cards. You don't lose life for drawing, you pick the cards you get out of the four and clear the rest you don't need out, and you don't relinquish the chance at more cards to chance. Plus, and I may need to call a judge on this one, but if I clash for Horder's and win, don't have I to KEEP drawing and losing life till I lose the clash? So I have the possibility at losing 4-? life for a fist full of cards I might not be able to use THAT turn?
I can see the card advantage aspect, but this card is way too high cost and iffy for me and I think it falls very short of the previous black draw spells.
In short, this makes me think of how they took out phyrexian arena in 10th and put in that awful Graveborn Muse. Just makes me think they're weakening black on purpose.:mad:
Edit: In reading more of the thread, I have to agree that Night's Whisper was a much better black draw sorcery.
And it is not like it will kill you. Just do it like 2 times (clashing I mean) for 6 cards and 6 life. Extreme card advantage. I'm lovin' it.
I agree that could be kinda cool, and in that way could almost be like a necropotence sorta thing.
But you're still leaving that up to chance. Not to mention how dangerous if not totally useless this card could be late game. I mean the clash isn't optional right?
Even if you do center your deck around winning clash, haven't you just now possibly made your deck sub par for having to throw in all those high CC cards?
And what about all those times where it's just gonna be a Night's Whisper for twice the cost?
IDK, maybe it's just me, I don't mean any disrespect to the people who do like it. I'm just not feeling it.
It's totally alright. This is what a forum is for, for others to voice their opinions of whether they like the stuff or not. Not meaning any disrespect towards our previous poster who thinks rearranging top cards and drawing 2 is better than drawing a lot of cards. This card is 1000 times better than the card you are comparing it to.
And, no, you don't need a lot of high casting cost stuff to make it work. Replacing my AK's with this card is gona work flawlessly in my Tog. FoW and Misdirection already in + this card's CC isn't that low makes my clash win chances a lot higher. And even if you play in T2 there are a lot of high CC stuff, and from what I have seen WotC is even awarding us for using them.
And no way in hell does black become gimped because of this card. Quite the contrary. Black may become quite dominant.
P.S. Night's Whisper is not a better card draw because it only does it once, while here as long as you keep winning you keep drawing. Well comparable, but not better.
Just like to start out with saying I'm a HUGE fan of black. When black was the lowest played color at PTQ's, I was still playing with it and trying to get it to work. With that said:
I can understand the card advantage this gives you (Hoarder's Greed), but I think it's too uncontrollable. So you have to clash every time, and lets say your opponent just lets you draw to your hearts content, you can only use so many of those cards this turn, then you pitch the rest when you discard. Hopefully, you've got enough board control to kill your opponent before too long, but if they have something like Cryptic and just swing through for enough damage or buy enough time to get the rest of your life down, is it worth it?
I know card advantage is important, and black spends life to get it (often that's a very worthwile trade), but this is uncontrolable. You can't determine how many times you clash. And if you can't stabalize the board or your opponent lets you draw a ton then just burns you (with say Sudden Impact) the rest of the way down, what good are all thsoe cards?
To quote Quint from Jaws "I dunno, Chief. He's very smart or very dumb." This card is either going to validate a whole archatype, or it's just a failed R&D experiment waiting to make black players cry for another set. Personally, I'm hoping for the first and betting on the latter.
What do you mean uncontrollable? You can decided whether to keep the high CC card on top or ship it on the bottom. That is a good option. You keep the card on top till you decide you have enough and boot it downtown. We (the black players), at least I strongly doubt, will not cry because of it. As you can tell I am rejoicing :X. They (WotC) need to print such cards more often.
As for your argument regarding the pitch at end of turn coz u can't use them all, np I will pitch them to my tog and smack you in the face for a lot.
Just like to start out with saying I'm a HUGE fan of black. When black was the lowest played color at PTQ's, I was still playing with it and trying to get it to work. With that said:
I can understand the card advantage this gives you (Hoarder's Greed), but I think it's too uncontrollable. So you have to clash every time, and lets say your opponent just lets you draw to your hearts content, you can only use so many of those cards this turn, then you pitch the rest when you discard. Hopefully, you've got enough board control to kill your opponent before too long, but if they have something like Cryptic and just swing through for enough damage or buy enough time to get the rest of your life down, is it worth it?
I know card advantage is important, and black spends life to get it (often that's a very worthwile trade), but this is uncontrolable. You can't determine how many times you clash. And if you can't stabalize the board or your opponent lets you draw a ton then just burns you (with say Sudden Impact) the rest of the way down, what good are all thsoe cards?
To quote Quint from Jaws "I dunno, Chief. He's very smart or very dumb." This card is either going to validate a whole archatype, or it's just a failed R&D experiment waiting to make black players cry for another set. Personally, I'm hoping for the first and betting on the latter.
It's a shame Dimir House-Guard is rotating. This would be a great mid- to late-game grab using the house guard. In fact, I have a casual MBC deck that probably will run one of these just to do that.
Edit: @Robster: You can't "keep an expensive card at the top till you want to stop drawing" because when you win, you DRAW that card. So it's something completely unknown that you reveal for the next clash. It could be a land that stops you when you wanted another 2 cards, or it could be a Tombstalker that forces you to take another two points of lifeloss for cards you're likely going to have to discard anyways.
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Hoarder's greed would have been very good as an instant (hey, they did it with Skeletal scrying). As a sorcery it's still a decent card but paying 3B for a Night's whisper is just bad, so unless you win a clash at least once, you're on the losing end with this card.
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It could be a land that stops you when you wanted another 2 cards, or it could be a Tombstalker that forces you to take another two points of lifeloss for cards you're likely going to have to discard anyways.
EXACTLY. I REALLY want this card to be good, and I'll give it its play testing due, but I think it's right on the edge of circumstantial: no control and you can play right into a burn or counter. Sill, if it works, it makes MB a force (finally) and it'll be a must have. Either way I'll have a play set by the end of pre-release (just in case).
It's a shame Dimir House-Guard is rotating. This would be a great mid- to late-game grab using the house guard. In fact, I have a casual MBC deck that probably will run one of these just to do that.
Edit: @Robster: You can't "keep an expensive card at the top till you want to stop drawing" because when you win, you DRAW that card. So it's something completely unknown that you reveal for the next clash. It could be a land that stops you when you wanted another 2 cards, or it could be a Tombstalker that forces you to take another two points of lifeloss for cards you're likely going to have to discard anyways.
yea u are right. but even if that is the case it is a great card. better than whispers for sure.
yea u are right. but even if that is the case it is a great card. better than whispers for sure.
Night's Whisper is an AMAZING card. It provides some of the most efficient card advantage in recent years, and is black's best card draw after the skull and yawgmoth's bargain. This card, not quite so much. Considering decks are about 40% land, that means there's a 40% chance of automatic failure. Even if we assume that every clash where you reveal a non-land card, you win, that still only gives you a 60% chance of getting four or more cards, and only about one of three times you cast it will you get 6 or more cards. 1 out of 5 tries will get you 8+ cards, and it degenerates from there (to about a 1% chance of drawing a lethal 20 cards). So using just the 4 likeliest outcomes, we can break it down like this:
That means this averages about 4 cards, 4 life lost, and a semi-scry of 2. That means this IS better than, say Ambition's Cost, but that never saw play when it was in standard.
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Please do not misunderstand me. I am no way saying Night's Whisper is a bad card. Just saying that Greed is a better card because for 3B you get Whisper + a chance to get another whisper going and more. Sure you might hit a land to stop the cycle but 60% is a heck higher probability than let's say getting a certain card in your opening hand, which is about 12% or so, or something to that extent.
I can understand the the possibility of drawing 4 for 4 is nice, and if that is the case most of the time it'll be worth playing. However, you just can't control when it stops. What I see as a possibility is putting in something like Soul Spike as damage control so you have a free and quick way of gaining 4 back and taking out a creature. Tendrils of Corruption would also be a good possibility, then you've got HUGE card advantage and a way of getting back all that life you lost.
I dunno, it has potential the more I think about it. I don't like the sorcery speed on turn 4, but if you build the deck right, it DOES have the potential to make a good mono black deck. My only concern is just the lack of control, but who knows, we'll have to see what the pros do with it.
1.) Somebody actually sat down and did the math on clash in one of these threads, and your chances of winning (assuming your opponent plays to stop you from winning) are something like slightly less than 40% in a deck with a somewhat overcosted curve fighting against a low-curved aggro deck, if I'm not mistaken. Remember, it's not good enough to draw the clash: you have to win it!
2.) The Scry effect of clash is symmetrical. If it is beneficial to you overall, that benefit is very double-edged (and you may be mistaken about the idea that the scry benefits you more than your opponent given certain decks).
3.) Whispers costs 2. This costs 4. Whispers is good because it costs half as much and gives you card advantage in a very timely way. Constructed playable or not, this is not on the level of power that you should plan to discard cards drawn with this spell to Psychatog. You know how Flores weirdly insists that in all formats, spells that cost 4 should win you the game? Well, in the formats where psychatog is still playable, his belief is probably semi-accurate.
I don't honestly think this is going to get play in Constructed because the Clash mechanic is just statistically rather weak. The problem with this card regardless is not that it sometimes deals 4 damage to you when you can't help it; rather, the problem is that it usually doesn't draw you four cards.
Now that I think about it, I'm almost sure this isn't playable in constructed until the block rotation after this happens. The reason is that 4 is by far the most hotly contested slot on the curve in all B and U/B control decks out there -- I think this is easy to see as you start actively tuning one -- and there are so many ludicrously effective options available here that this gets cut so you can somehow squeeze in more Tendrils, Korlash, Damnation and so on.
That means this averages about 4 cards, 4 life lost, and a semi-scry of 2. That means this IS better than, say Ambition's Cost, but that never saw play when it was in standard.
I think you're mistaken about the numbers. On average, Ambition's Cost will almost certainly draw you more cards than this because of how Clash's statistics pan out. And again, the scry effect is symmetrical.
I would prefer Wild Growth. t1 Wild Growth, t2 Overgrowth, t3 Garruck Wildspeaker, untap 2 lands, umm . . . Akroma's Memorial? I dunno. Wouldn't be competitive anyway, so might as well go for the biggest fun.
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The way it's worded yes. That's what I was thinking but for extended. Play this turn 2 and dredge back golgari Grave Trolls ad nauseum. I figure Gaea's Blessings + 4 Grave Trolls and a free discard outlet means you SHOULD be able to kill them almost immediately when you play this card. Magus of the Bazaar Maybe?
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But seriously, the original card says
"I'm gonna pistol whip the next person that says shennanigans!"
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If the spoiler is correct then you repeat the draw, life loss, and clash...
This spell can draw you some MAJOR cards if you get lucky with the possiblity of winning the clash multiple times
.
And it is not like it will kill you. Just do it like 2 times (clashing I mean) for 6 cards and 6 life. Extreme card advantage. I'm lovin' it.
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I'd like to have this shenanigan in play against a mill deck
Traumatize me? Glimpse me? Why thank you too, Sir!
Respond with Feast of Footbottom. Of course, they'd have to be nuts to Traumatize if you have Shenanigans in play.
After seeing Gaea's Blessing in TS, I wonder if we might see other "millworks" effects... I know R&D has bantered with the idea for years.
Totally agreed. I'm loving the common and uncommon color fixing-- there's going to be a lot of third color splashing going on in LLL drafts.
Hmmz, good idea.
A deck with 4 Shenanigans, 2 Blessings and something that will mill infinite times.
Do you have any ideas?
Maybe we should wait for the Lorwyn Spoiler!
I really hope that deck could be build It's like NarcoBridge, but different!
Not a fan. Not at all. I think it's almost a joke of a card. First off, 3B should buy a little bit more than 2 cards and a scry 1. Think of Phyrexian Arena, you got 1 card per turn for just 1 life, Bob was both a creature and accelerated your cards for life. This, well, I'll put it this way, look at the card Foresee. It costs the same, scrys 4, and lets you draw 2 cards. You don't lose life for drawing, you pick the cards you get out of the four and clear the rest you don't need out, and you don't relinquish the chance at more cards to chance. Plus, and I may need to call a judge on this one, but if I clash for Horder's and win, don't have I to KEEP drawing and losing life till I lose the clash? So I have the possibility at losing 4-? life for a fist full of cards I might not be able to use THAT turn?
I can see the card advantage aspect, but this card is way too high cost and iffy for me and I think it falls very short of the previous black draw spells.
In short, this makes me think of how they took out phyrexian arena in 10th and put in that awful Graveborn Muse. Just makes me think they're weakening black on purpose.:mad:
Edit: In reading more of the thread, I have to agree that Night's Whisper was a much better black draw sorcery.
I agree that could be kinda cool, and in that way could almost be like a necropotence sorta thing.
But you're still leaving that up to chance. Not to mention how dangerous if not totally useless this card could be late game. I mean the clash isn't optional right?
Even if you do center your deck around winning clash, haven't you just now possibly made your deck sub par for having to throw in all those high CC cards?
And what about all those times where it's just gonna be a Night's Whisper for twice the cost?
IDK, maybe it's just me, I don't mean any disrespect to the people who do like it. I'm just not feeling it.
And, no, you don't need a lot of high casting cost stuff to make it work. Replacing my AK's with this card is gona work flawlessly in my Tog. FoW and Misdirection already in + this card's CC isn't that low makes my clash win chances a lot higher. And even if you play in T2 there are a lot of high CC stuff, and from what I have seen WotC is even awarding us for using them.
And no way in hell does black become gimped because of this card. Quite the contrary. Black may become quite dominant.
P.S. Night's Whisper is not a better card draw because it only does it once, while here as long as you keep winning you keep drawing. Well comparable, but not better.
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I can understand the card advantage this gives you (Hoarder's Greed), but I think it's too uncontrollable. So you have to clash every time, and lets say your opponent just lets you draw to your hearts content, you can only use so many of those cards this turn, then you pitch the rest when you discard. Hopefully, you've got enough board control to kill your opponent before too long, but if they have something like Cryptic and just swing through for enough damage or buy enough time to get the rest of your life down, is it worth it?
I know card advantage is important, and black spends life to get it (often that's a very worthwile trade), but this is uncontrolable. You can't determine how many times you clash. And if you can't stabalize the board or your opponent lets you draw a ton then just burns you (with say Sudden Impact) the rest of the way down, what good are all thsoe cards?
To quote Quint from Jaws "I dunno, Chief. He's very smart or very dumb." This card is either going to validate a whole archatype, or it's just a failed R&D experiment waiting to make black players cry for another set. Personally, I'm hoping for the first and betting on the latter.
As for your argument regarding the pitch at end of turn coz u can't use them all, np I will pitch them to my tog and smack you in the face for a lot.
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It's a shame Dimir House-Guard is rotating. This would be a great mid- to late-game grab using the house guard. In fact, I have a casual MBC deck that probably will run one of these just to do that.
Edit: @Robster: You can't "keep an expensive card at the top till you want to stop drawing" because when you win, you DRAW that card. So it's something completely unknown that you reveal for the next clash. It could be a land that stops you when you wanted another 2 cards, or it could be a Tombstalker that forces you to take another two points of lifeloss for cards you're likely going to have to discard anyways.
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EXACTLY. I REALLY want this card to be good, and I'll give it its play testing due, but I think it's right on the edge of circumstantial: no control and you can play right into a burn or counter. Sill, if it works, it makes MB a force (finally) and it'll be a must have. Either way I'll have a play set by the end of pre-release (just in case).
yea u are right. but even if that is the case it is a great card. better than whispers for sure.
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Night's Whisper is an AMAZING card. It provides some of the most efficient card advantage in recent years, and is black's best card draw after the skull and yawgmoth's bargain. This card, not quite so much. Considering decks are about 40% land, that means there's a 40% chance of automatic failure. Even if we assume that every clash where you reveal a non-land card, you win, that still only gives you a 60% chance of getting four or more cards, and only about one of three times you cast it will you get 6 or more cards. 1 out of 5 tries will get you 8+ cards, and it degenerates from there (to about a 1% chance of drawing a lethal 20 cards). So using just the 4 likeliest outcomes, we can break it down like this:
.40*(draw 2, lose 2, "scry 1")+.24*(draw 4, lose 4, "scry 2")+.16*(draw 6, lose 6, "scry 3")+.2*(draw 8, lose 8, "scry 4") ~= draw 4.32 + lose 4.32 + "scry" 2.16
That means this averages about 4 cards, 4 life lost, and a semi-scry of 2. That means this IS better than, say Ambition's Cost, but that never saw play when it was in standard.
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I dunno, it has potential the more I think about it. I don't like the sorcery speed on turn 4, but if you build the deck right, it DOES have the potential to make a good mono black deck. My only concern is just the lack of control, but who knows, we'll have to see what the pros do with it.
1.) Somebody actually sat down and did the math on clash in one of these threads, and your chances of winning (assuming your opponent plays to stop you from winning) are something like slightly less than 40% in a deck with a somewhat overcosted curve fighting against a low-curved aggro deck, if I'm not mistaken. Remember, it's not good enough to draw the clash: you have to win it!
2.) The Scry effect of clash is symmetrical. If it is beneficial to you overall, that benefit is very double-edged (and you may be mistaken about the idea that the scry benefits you more than your opponent given certain decks).
3.) Whispers costs 2. This costs 4. Whispers is good because it costs half as much and gives you card advantage in a very timely way. Constructed playable or not, this is not on the level of power that you should plan to discard cards drawn with this spell to Psychatog. You know how Flores weirdly insists that in all formats, spells that cost 4 should win you the game? Well, in the formats where psychatog is still playable, his belief is probably semi-accurate.
I don't honestly think this is going to get play in Constructed because the Clash mechanic is just statistically rather weak. The problem with this card regardless is not that it sometimes deals 4 damage to you when you can't help it; rather, the problem is that it usually doesn't draw you four cards.
Now that I think about it, I'm almost sure this isn't playable in constructed until the block rotation after this happens. The reason is that 4 is by far the most hotly contested slot on the curve in all B and U/B control decks out there -- I think this is easy to see as you start actively tuning one -- and there are so many ludicrously effective options available here that this gets cut so you can somehow squeeze in more Tendrils, Korlash, Damnation and so on.
I think you're mistaken about the numbers. On average, Ambition's Cost will almost certainly draw you more cards than this because of how Clash's statistics pan out. And again, the scry effect is symmetrical.
If so having multiples would be as much a deterrant to Tempest of Light effects as *** effects.
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I would prefer Wild Growth. t1 Wild Growth, t2 Overgrowth, t3 Garruck Wildspeaker, untap 2 lands, umm . . . Akroma's Memorial? I dunno. Wouldn't be competitive anyway, so might as well go for the biggest fun.