If you sacrifice the Ring to your Auratog while the "remove from the game" trigger is still on the stack, it'll put the "return the removed thing" ability on top of it, which proceeds to bring back absolutely nothing. Then the "remove" ability resolves and whatever was targeted will be gone forever, or as forever as removed from the game gets nowdays, which isn't much.
Can this also work with Vedalken Mastermind (someone earlier mentioned the combo, but didn't describe it)? Play the spell, target it with the Mastermind while the first effect is still on the stack, and bounce it back to your hand with the inverted effects (the second going off before the first). Or does it only work with Auratog because of the "speed" of the sacrifice? (I'm not a rules guru, obviously. So does a sacrifice use the stack the same way an activated ablitity does? I'm confused)
Definitely looks interesting, I'm a little skeptical if it'll be quite as good as everyone thinks, since once again, we've got a partial list spoiled here - with this being the first good, multifunction enchantment answer in Lorwyn it definitely looks like it might be an A+. But with over 200 cards to go and some really nasty sideboard options already available in 10th it could really drop in effectiveness.
Regardless though, it's a real positive sign for the "new white".
You sacrifice it while it's come into play trigger is on the stack so that its leaves play trigger goes off first, removing something from the game permanently.
If it gets out of hand, they can always give it the same Eratta the Parallax cards did back in nemesis.
No, they can't. That is to say, they wouldn't. They don't do power level errata anymore. Of course, I don't think it would need one. It is, after all, almost strictly worse than Vindicate, even if you use tricks to "abuse" it. Vindicate didn't need to be banned from anything, and while outstanding for a common, this card won't even come close.
1) Play Oblivion Ring
2) citp ability triggers and goes on the stack
3) target Oblivion Ring with Tolarian Sentinel
4) return oblivion Ring to your hand
5) leaves play ability triggers and goes on the stack
6) leaves play ability resolves returning nothing
7) cipt ability resolves removing targeted permanent from the game
Edit: personal best in speed typing and still sarnath'ed...
But doesn't the Ring "lose" its memory of what it removed if it is returned to hand or sac-ed? As I see it is will be very abusive.
I just remember one thing........... What's with Wizards' current obsession with Nightmare mechanics? Champion is a sort of Nightmare mechanic, then this is also one of it (although unfortunately it's not a creature; no Pandemonium mishap).... weird...
Are you sure if the wording is correct? It is "draw this game" for 3 mana if there are no non-land permanents.
I'm not so sure that this card creates an infinite loop on its own if there are no other non-lands in play.
Since "leaving play" and being "removed from the game" are exactly the same action in this case, there is no way the leaves play trigger can see that the card was already removed from the game upon triggering. That means the second ability would do nothing.
I'm pretty good with rules but not so sure on this one, maybe a rules guru can clear this up.
Thanks for the clarifications, Master of Darkness and Smokestack.
The combos are fun and tricksy. If we have this kind of permanent (as opposed to creature) bounce in Lorwyn block, this card will be very useful in limited. I don't know if it's constructed tournament viable (I don't build decks of that quality), but for hangin' out and talking smack at the game shop, this card will be four-ofs in a lot of 60-carders.
I refer to this as the official 0th pick in Lorwyn Limited. There is really no reason to pick anything else above this. It's more versatile than black removal, more powerful than red removal, and the only MDed answer to this is... itself.
Yeah, this + Goldmeadow Harrier + good curve (Kithkin below, Giants above) seems to be positioning White quite well in Limited. I also like the point about Zur. While a 3-color card, he could be quite brutal with this alongside Galepowder Mage. I.e., you can't block anything.
Dolmen's Door could work well with Zur Kithkin as well.
This card is incestuous at the best levels. Even in Constructed, this card can be taken care of by... White and Green (Disenchant/itself and Naturalize respectively). That would point to using it in Constructed.
WW/WR uses this to remove blockers. WU can use it to handle opposing bombs or simply to neutralize something until they can deal with it. WG midrange can use it to selectively neutralize opposing creatures that cause it problems (recent examples would be Stinkweed Imp and Stuffy).
There's very little this card can't do, handled properly.
Well, Im satisfied. I was wondering what could possibly do they to make up for the loss of fetters once ravnica rotated out and this is just great. Now white only needs a replacement for life gain attached to a playable permanent and we'll be ok
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Is it worth packing in Pull from Eternities with this when they sideboard enchantment hate. They go to destroy your Oblivion Ring and you just pull whatever it is thats going to be removed into their graveyard instead.
A nice casual combo. It might be worth running SB with Ring, since Pull also hoses suspend and possibly allows you to reuse flashback(?).
We'd have to see in practice first.
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I think people are getting far too excited about this card. Yes, it's 3 mana removal but 95% of the time it's hitting a creature. Now that is nothing to scoff at, clearly, but there have been tons of similar effects before. Faith's Fetters, for instance, was a MUCH better constructed card because not only did it provide crucial life for control decks when paired against aggro, it also shut down lands like Vitu-Ghazi. If Fetters did not do those things it wouldn't have been played.
In limited this is first pick material but it is hardly a "bomb" as some people have said. Temporal Isolation was better than this in limited because it was both cheaper and had flash (the fact that you can hit artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers will hardly ever be relevent - creatures in limited are almost always the more pressing threats).
Don't get me wrong, this is a very solid card. However, it is merely par-for-the-course removal in limited and a card that will probably not see competitive play in constructed. People are overreacting far too much by saying that enchantment removal suddenly becomes more important - it does not. This is removal that trades 1-for-1. Instead of packing Disenchant, why don't you just play an extra creature?
Yes, I see it as a bomb as well, it is a great card. But I do not see players replacing some key cards in their already constructed decks just to slip in a few copies of this card.
That is exactly something that my friend would say. Disenchant << creature in this case. Even though in his opinion creatures suck. Their only use would be to get the other non-creature stuff out and win the game.
This card is just a downright limited bomb. It is strictly better than saltblast and slighty worse than temporal isolation imo. It may see constructed play depending on the regularity of planeswalkers being used, and also its sheer versatility. Mono-white Vindicate FTW.
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Sure... board in your enchantment hate against it... or play a better creature. Generally, answers to answers are teh suck.
QFT. One-for-one to remove threat removal isn't worth it. This card won't have a downside unless a ton of other playable enchantments to target somehow surface.
The wording also has to be "other permanent". "When this leaves play" already implies that the card is changing zones, it doesn't forget what it removed when ring hits the graveyard for example. Even with that wording, three of them should draw a game just like faceless butcher. This could be an occasional nusiance in constructed since unlike the faceless guys, these cards are actually playable...
I think people are getting far too excited about this card. Yes, it's 3 mana removal but 95% of the time it's hitting a creature. Now that is nothing to scoff at, clearly, but there have been tons of similar effects before. Faith's Fetters, for instance, was a MUCH better constructed card because not only did it provide crucial life for control decks when paired against aggro, it also shut down lands like Vitu-Ghazi. If Fetters did not do those things it wouldn't have been played.
In limited this is first pick material but it is hardly a "bomb" as some people have said. Temporal Isolation was better than this in limited because it was both cheaper and had flash (the fact that you can hit artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers will hardly ever be relevent - creatures in limited are almost always the more pressing threats).
Don't get me wrong, this is a very solid card. However, it is merely par-for-the-course removal in limited and a card that will probably not see competitive play in constructed. People are overreacting far too much by saying that enchantment removal suddenly becomes more important - it does not. This is removal that trades 1-for-1. Instead of packing Disenchant, why don't you just play an extra creature?
Faith's Fetters never laid a finger on Teferi or any other permanent with a static or triggered ability.
Can this also work with Vedalken Mastermind (someone earlier mentioned the combo, but didn't describe it)? Play the spell, target it with the Mastermind while the first effect is still on the stack, and bounce it back to your hand with the inverted effects (the second going off before the first). Or does it only work with Auratog because of the "speed" of the sacrifice? (I'm not a rules guru, obviously. So does a sacrifice use the stack the same way an activated ablitity does? I'm confused)
Thanks
BB
This combo used to work with Day of the Dragons (ie, you drop DotD, the 'turn things into dragons' effect triggers, then you bounce or destroy DotD in response, triggering the kill all the dragons ability... then once that resolves, you get all your 5/5 dragons), so it should be fine. I know someone who'll love splashing in white for this, since he already runs a mono-blue Mastermind/Reality Acid deck. This is basically acids 5-8, albeit somewhat more effective without the mastermind around to bounce it than Acid is.
I just remember one thing........... What's with Wizards' current obsession with Nightmare mechanics? Champion is a sort of Nightmare mechanic, then this is also one of it (although unfortunately it's not a creature; no Pandemonium mishap).... weird...
Nightmare mechanics hose wrath effects. The past two blocks have been extremely creature heavy, and we have something like 8 or 9 wraths in the card pool right now (although only 2 or 3 are played). Wizards is now making wraths less effective, giving us a more creature-oriented block. This was predictable (and, in fact, predicted by some.)
The next block will likely have something to hose remove from game effects. And thus the cycle of each block eating the previous one's lunch continues.
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It will be a recurring loop forever. Its a draw game, thats broken, you can just draw the game if you feel that your hand sucks and you get this out early.
With it being at common, itsnt it too good for Limited?
Firstly, its not a creature, making it not as vulnearable.
Secondly, its basically Vindicate for 2W, easily splashable.
In Constructed, its a also useful. Every deck has nonland permanents, so you can easily just grab something with this.
Too good to be true. There must be a catch or drawback somewhere.
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Well, it's probably actually "another target nonland permanent," so it's not an insta-draw.
As for it being common, I'd say they probably wanted a strong answer to the strong creatures that are sure to be in the set. Also, they may have wanted a common answer to Rings of Brighthearth, which makes combos with so many different things that it can can probably enable some pretty strong combo decks in limited.
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BlueNu has it right. This card is superior to both Faith's Fetters and Temporal Isolation. Temporal Isolation has the advantage of having Flash, but neither of the cards deal with static or triggered abilities, with Teferi heading the list. Quite possibly Teeg will be the new 'Teferi', at least in the 'white had no way of stopping its ability' department.
Ironically, the deck archetype that Fetters is best against is the archetype that Ring is worst against; i.e., fast aggro. Against a deck that is mostly interchangeable parts (e.g., decks situated around Empty the Warrens), Fetters works better.
However, in Limited at the very least, I'd rather have the Ring than the Fetters.
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Can this also work with Vedalken Mastermind (someone earlier mentioned the combo, but didn't describe it)? Play the spell, target it with the Mastermind while the first effect is still on the stack, and bounce it back to your hand with the inverted effects (the second going off before the first). Or does it only work with Auratog because of the "speed" of the sacrifice? (I'm not a rules guru, obviously. So does a sacrifice use the stack the same way an activated ablitity does? I'm confused)
Thanks
BB
Regardless though, it's a real positive sign for the "new white".
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No, they can't. That is to say, they wouldn't. They don't do power level errata anymore. Of course, I don't think it would need one. It is, after all, almost strictly worse than Vindicate, even if you use tricks to "abuse" it. Vindicate didn't need to be banned from anything, and while outstanding for a common, this card won't even come close.
COMMON?
Take that, Mangara! Also, this is almost strictly better than Arrest. Talk about an absurd bomb in draft, with possible constructed applications.
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But doesn't the Ring "lose" its memory of what it removed if it is returned to hand or sac-ed? As I see it is will be very abusive.
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I'm not so sure that this card creates an infinite loop on its own if there are no other non-lands in play.
Since "leaving play" and being "removed from the game" are exactly the same action in this case, there is no way the leaves play trigger can see that the card was already removed from the game upon triggering. That means the second ability would do nothing.
I'm pretty good with rules but not so sure on this one, maybe a rules guru can clear this up.
The combos are fun and tricksy. If we have this kind of permanent (as opposed to creature) bounce in Lorwyn block, this card will be very useful in limited. I don't know if it's constructed tournament viable (I don't build decks of that quality), but for hangin' out and talking smack at the game shop, this card will be four-ofs in a lot of 60-carders.
BB
Yeah, this + Goldmeadow Harrier + good curve (Kithkin below, Giants above) seems to be positioning White quite well in Limited. I also like the point about Zur. While a 3-color card, he could be quite brutal with this alongside Galepowder Mage. I.e., you can't block anything.
Dolmen's Door could work well with Zur Kithkin as well.
This card is incestuous at the best levels. Even in Constructed, this card can be taken care of by... White and Green (Disenchant/itself and Naturalize respectively). That would point to using it in Constructed.
WW/WR uses this to remove blockers. WU can use it to handle opposing bombs or simply to neutralize something until they can deal with it. WG midrange can use it to selectively neutralize opposing creatures that cause it problems (recent examples would be Stinkweed Imp and Stuffy).
There's very little this card can't do, handled properly.
Thumbs + pinkies on this one, WotC.
A nice casual combo. It might be worth running SB with Ring, since Pull also hoses suspend and possibly allows you to reuse flashback(?).
We'd have to see in practice first.
Yes, I see it as a bomb as well, it is a great card. But I do not see players replacing some key cards in their already constructed decks just to slip in a few copies of this card.
That is exactly something that my friend would say. Disenchant << creature in this case. Even though in his opinion creatures suck. Their only use would be to get the other non-creature stuff out and win the game.
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QFT. One-for-one to remove threat removal isn't worth it. This card won't have a downside unless a ton of other playable enchantments to target somehow surface.
The wording also has to be "other permanent". "When this leaves play" already implies that the card is changing zones, it doesn't forget what it removed when ring hits the graveyard for example. Even with that wording, three of them should draw a game just like faceless butcher. This could be an occasional nusiance in constructed since unlike the faceless guys, these cards are actually playable...
Faith's Fetters never laid a finger on Teferi or any other permanent with a static or triggered ability.
This combo used to work with Day of the Dragons (ie, you drop DotD, the 'turn things into dragons' effect triggers, then you bounce or destroy DotD in response, triggering the kill all the dragons ability... then once that resolves, you get all your 5/5 dragons), so it should be fine. I know someone who'll love splashing in white for this, since he already runs a mono-blue Mastermind/Reality Acid deck. This is basically acids 5-8, albeit somewhat more effective without the mastermind around to bounce it than Acid is.
Nightmare mechanics hose wrath effects. The past two blocks have been extremely creature heavy, and we have something like 8 or 9 wraths in the card pool right now (although only 2 or 3 are played). Wizards is now making wraths less effective, giving us a more creature-oriented block. This was predictable (and, in fact, predicted by some.)
The next block will likely have something to hose remove from game effects. And thus the cycle of each block eating the previous one's lunch continues.
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effects very valuable... common is about right though, nice card!
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It will be a recurring loop forever. Its a draw game, thats broken, you can just draw the game if you feel that your hand sucks and you get this out early.
With it being at common, itsnt it too good for Limited?
Firstly, its not a creature, making it not as vulnearable.
Secondly, its basically Vindicate for 2W, easily splashable.
In Constructed, its a also useful. Every deck has nonland permanents, so you can easily just grab something with this.
Too good to be true. There must be a catch or drawback somewhere.
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As for it being common, I'd say they probably wanted a strong answer to the strong creatures that are sure to be in the set. Also, they may have wanted a common answer to Rings of Brighthearth, which makes combos with so many different things that it can can probably enable some pretty strong combo decks in limited.
Ironically, the deck archetype that Fetters is best against is the archetype that Ring is worst against; i.e., fast aggro. Against a deck that is mostly interchangeable parts (e.g., decks situated around Empty the Warrens), Fetters works better.
However, in Limited at the very least, I'd rather have the Ring than the Fetters.