However, I stand by my prediction that Evoke will be one of the most terrible keywords of all time. 19 times out of 20, you're going to hardcast this guy instead of evoking him. Instant speed 2 damage hurricane for 4, or instant speed 2 damage hurricane and 7/7 reach for 6? A *huge* increase in utility, basically up an Enormous Baloth and a spot removal for a 50% increase in price (granted, a rather large increase in color intensity). The only situation I can think of Evoking this guy in is if you were mana- or color-screwed and being beaten down by a hoard of Faeries. Not exactly a frequently used ability. This seems to be the general consensus for all Evoke cards seen to date, and I've seen nothing that would make me want to Evoke a creature rather than wait a turn or 2 and hardcast it.
Love Ajani's card now I've seen it fully framed; shame that even with the improved final ability, he's not all that great and will only play in niche decks.
EDIT: Rereads the revised second ability. Then again...
Cloudthresher is fun. A big green reach that isn't a spider (i.e. P<T). Despite CCCC it's an attractive cost; hardly a constructed card, but conceivably sideboardable for the evoke; and the good thing about sideboarding evoke cards is that you occasionally get to play them straight. 2GG is over the odds to Hurricane for 2 - except that you get to block and kill pretty much any big flier or groundpounder in the process, and more to the point you're doing so at instant speed.
However, I stand by my prediction that Evoke will be one of the most terrible keywords of all time. 19 times out of 20, you're going to hardcast this guy instead of evoking him. Instant speed 2 damage hurricane for 4, or instant speed 2 damage hurricane and 7/7 reach for 6? A *huge* increase in utility, basically up an Enormous Baloth and a spot removal for a 50% increase in price (granted, a rather large increase in color intensity). The only situation I can think of Evoking this guy in is if you were mana- or color-screwed and being beaten down by a hoard of Faeries. Not exactly a frequently used ability. This seems to be the general consensus for all Evoke cards seen to date, and I've seen nothing that would make me want to Evoke a creature rather than wait a turn or 2 and hardcast it.
Don't forget the possibility of Evoking something and then cheating on the sacrifice by Blink or something similar.
Cloudthresher is pretty much trash. His abilities are fairly useless. Only his p/t to converted mana cost is good, but his mana cost prohibits you from playing him in anything but a dedicated mono-Green deck. I'm curious, though, why does he not have the anti-reanimation clause like the other large elementals?
That's a particular cycle; Cloudthresher isn't part of it. It's just continuing green's tradition of oversized rare elementals. Shame it doesn't have trample; its cost looks appealing, but it's still essentially a vanilla blocker after it drops.
Why, exactly, would an aggro player play Ajani? If you're gonna play something on turn 4....it had better be a Serra Avenger, or something that actually deals damage.
Granted, the mini-Serra's Blessing and permanent pump is nice, but not enough for turn 4, when you could be doing a lot more than that.
Against control you don't need to play a 3rd creature on turn 4 (except perhaps Gaddock Teeg/Saffi Eriksdotter). Glorius Anthem and vigilance doesn't hurt here - it's damage. How is that not playing a Serra Avenger ?
It also commits less to the board.
Secondly, he turns all of your creatures into more substantial threats and doesn't die to creature removal.
Thirdly... he wins the aggro mirror and probably makes White/X/y aggro a helluva lot stronger than it's burn counterpart when they clash heads. For instance - G/W traditionally beats G/R based on lifegain and bigger beatsticks. Which is essentially what Ajani does. The lifegain is not insubstantial in this match up either. The importantance of Lightning Helix compared to Incinerate is well noted in this context.
Don't forget the possibility of Evoking something and then cheating on the sacrifice by Blink or something similar.
Except that most of the prices of the creatures differ from their evoke costs by less than or equal to two mana. So basically, you're paying 1W and a card instead of GG, and in return you get an extra 2 hurricane damage. Not to mention Blink isn't in Lorwyn, so there's no limited synergy, and I haven't seen any constructed-worthy Evoke creatures other than possibly Shriekmaw or the Council or the Soritami evoker. The council one could easily go into a blink deck, as blinking it would allow you to draw 2 additional cards, but other than that there really are no playable situations combining Evoke with a Blink effect.
Fair point...but I still say the converted mana cost of 4 hurts Ajani alot. I'd rather him be 3 mana with 2 loyalty.....since I suppose 3 would be pushing the 'Planeswaler curve'...
This seems to be the general consensus for all Evoke cards seen to date, and I've seen nothing that would make me want to Evoke a creature rather than wait a turn or 2 and hardcast it.
Yeah, a lot of times you would rather wait.
But that'll change when say you've got a Shriekmaw, less than 5 mana and a creature that needs to die now.
Obviously you'd prefer to wait. You'd prefer to always use your kickers too - but sometimes you need the effect immediately.
I do agree, however, that many of the good evoke creatures don't seem to have a large enough discount to make me want to forgo the creature without some strong motivation (i.e. a really bad board position).
But that'll change when say you've got a Shriekmaw, less than 5 mana and a creature that needs to die now.
Obviously you'd prefer to wait. You'd prefer to always use your kickers too - but sometimes you need the effect immediately.
I do agree, however, that many of the good evoke creatures don't seem to have a large enough discount to make me want to forgo the creature without some strong motivation (i.e. a really bad board position).
Actually, now that you mention it, Evoke is more like a reverse-kicker effect than Kicker itself...I mean, instead of playing a creature and paying extra to get a spell effect...you're paying discout to get the effect but not the creature. Hmmmm....$5 says Evoke was an idea based on some Kicker-variant (which it is, come to think of it)
How is this thing an elemental? It looks more like a kami spirit to me. A five-colored tribe of surreal monsters that's fighting the anthropomorphic tribes? Perhaps we should rename Lorwyn "The Rejects of Kamigawa" (no jab at power level intended).
How is this thing an elemental? It looks more like a kami spirit to me. A five-colored tribe of surreal monsters that's fighting the anthropomorphic tribes? Perhaps we should rename Lorwyn "The Rejects of Kamigawa" (no jab at power level intended).
But they're not fighting each other, are they? It's not so much the Spirit vs. Flesh thing. It's more, every tribe for itself thing....
Or... you could just play Glorious Anthem, get the 3 power bonus, ignore the vigilance (which is largely useless), not have to worry about protecting a way vulnerable permanent, and have mana to spare (to cast something like Surge of Thoughtweft for another 3 damage and a cantrip perhaps).
You're forgetting that Kithkin aren't the only white tribe, and the other tribe cares a lot about tap effects that will synergize very nicely with vigilance.
You're forgetting that Kithkin aren't the only white tribe, and the other tribe cares a lot about tap effects that will synergize very nicely with vigilance.
-E
I dunno, then play Marshaling Cry. It'll give you a couple turns of the same effect at least. And at least it can't be Incinerated, and can be cycled when it would otherwise be useless.
Also, Ajani does not combine very well with one of the most interesting weenie horde cards we've seen so far - Militia's Pride. You can't pump the creatures you control AND the Kithkin you're going to get, whereas something like Kjeldoran War Cry or Surge of Thoughtweft can get both, are significantly cheaper, and carry other useful effects.
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Well, to be fair, if you're playing the Pride...Ajani is probably already overkill, since hardly any decks pack maindeck enchantment removal (counterspells not withstanding).
Although, it should be said that with Ajani and the Pride, White based aggro decks are going to have a strong game against *** and it's ilk.
I dunno, then play Marshaling Cry. It'll give you a couple turns of the same effect at least. And at least it can't be Incinerated, and can be cycled when it would otherwise be useless.
Also, Ajani does not combine very well with one of the most interesting weenie horde cards we've seen so far - Militia's Pride. You can't pump the creatures you control AND the Kithkin you're going to get, whereas something like Kjeldoran War Cry or Surge of Thoughtweft can get both, are significantly cheaper, and carry other useful effects.
Marshalling Cry is one card with a temporary pump and one effect. Ajani is one card with permanent pump and several effects. If it draws an incinerate, GOOD. It didn't hit me, or any of the creatures that it pumped to make it vulnerable to incinerate.
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Cloudthresher is cool. While he won't get played he's proof that wizards is learning. You can still make powerful, effecient, and useful fat without breaking anything. This guy is a 7/7 for 6 mana, no disabilities (except the casting cost), reach, flash, and a minor hurricane effect. And even then he's still not good enough : P Power creep isn't a problem when it's just creeping the bad stuff closer to the good stuff.
But, , given how creature filled Lorwyn is, I wouldn't be suprised to see a mono, or mostly green Big Mana control deck. The kind that just sits behind a wall of accelerrants (wall of roots) and powers out big fun spells. If such a deck does emerge, it will most likely run 4 Summoner's Pact, with a toolbox of fun things to search up. In this hypothetical deck, the cloudthreser makes an amazing one of, but nothing more.
Also, Ajani is suddenly great. Before his second ability was the only useful one, and then only as a weak crusade variant. Permanently pumping your troops, and letting them hang back as blockers basically dominates the aggro mirror. Definitely a great way to finish off your Kithkin curve. Doesn't hurt that it can turn into a game winning threat against a control player whom, most likely, hasn't hurt your life total.
Ajani Goldmane is amazing. maybe the best walker(followed by the blue one). The Cloudthresher is a limited bomb at worst might even see play in type 2 or block depending on Metagame/rest of block.
Wow, Ajani is better than we expected, and actually I would play him. For 4 mana, all your creatures have vigilance and get a +1/+1 counter EACH TURN for the next 4 turns, unless your opponent throws some burn or an attack his way. But good luck getting an attack through, with your pumped up wall of vigilant men. Ignore the last ability, and only use the first ability if you're out of loyalty and stuck in a stalemate.
Jace is nice. I think all the planeswalkers are playable but not broken. I guess that's probably what they were aiming for.
Yeah, that's the big news for me.
I'm not put off by the mana cost. In fact, I enjoy it. Many of my decks are mono-green or heavy-green, and have no problem with it. Hell, make it GGGGGG if you want. Rushwood Elemental is a good friend of mine. Yeah, Moldervine Cloak will be rotating. Big deal! You don't think there'll be anything playable in LOR to make green playable?
The design is impeccable. People are going to say "it's unplayable because it doesn't have evasion". Bullcrap! Think a little harder. Imagine you're facing a typical board of a few flying creatures and a few ground attackers. You don't see how this guy will turn the tide for you? Play it with Flash when they attack. Block their biggest thread, be it flying or non-flying - it's your choice. The comes into play ability will take care of any smaller fliers. And each player takes 2. You kill the biggest threat, untap, and you're ready for the offensive. Not only did you get a creature effectively with "haste", meaning you may get through for 7, but you ALREADY hit them for 2 AND took out at least one of their creatures. So he hasn't got trample, big deal. Your mana is uptapped - slap a Hammer on him or something if you really need it.
The evoke cost is just gravy. Slap him in a deck with a bit of black. Evoke him out (as an instant, even) and then uptap and Zombify him. You get a 7/7 with multiple abilities on turn 4, and he got HIMSELF into the graveyard. Reminds me of cycling.
7/7 flash reach woulda done it for me, at 6 mana. The two extra abilities, which are powerful and provide options, just put it right up there with cards like Silvos, Rogue Elemental and Weatherseed Treefolk. Very green, efficient, and useful abilities.
Another thing to point out about the 7 power is that it's a 3 turn clock. If you can kill or tap potential blockers, this guy only needs to hit 3 times to win it for you. Actually, he does 2 when it comes into play... all you need to do it hit with him twice, and scrounge up another 4 damage from other creatures.
1) Bird
2) Elf
3) Some kind of attacker
4) ... flash out Thresher
And yes, people are going to whine. It's too green, it can die, and so on. Yup. That's why I'll have 4 in my deck. If you kill one, you better be holding another spell for the other guy in my hand! Not to mention the 4/4s and 5/5 tramples and 3/2 shrouds that I'll be drawing into or holding in hand.
Sometimes he'll dominate the board, and that's what it takes to make me put it in a deck.
Thanks RE for that comment. People look at mana costs way too much. Certain decks will use him for the creature aspect and some decks will use it for just the evoke. Remember in a clash deck, these evoke creatures will come in handy, since you get to play the cheap cost of the evoke, yet have the high CC for winning clash
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This coloured mana cost creep **** started in TSP, and it needs to stop, it was by far the worst thing about TSP draft and limited.
If this is intended as constructed driven card then fair enough. But seriously, how many green sources are you going to need to be comfortable playing this in limited? Around twelve, that's how many.
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However, I stand by my prediction that Evoke will be one of the most terrible keywords of all time. 19 times out of 20, you're going to hardcast this guy instead of evoking him. Instant speed 2 damage hurricane for 4, or instant speed 2 damage hurricane and 7/7 reach for 6? A *huge* increase in utility, basically up an Enormous Baloth and a spot removal for a 50% increase in price (granted, a rather large increase in color intensity). The only situation I can think of Evoking this guy in is if you were mana- or color-screwed and being beaten down by a hoard of Faeries. Not exactly a frequently used ability. This seems to be the general consensus for all Evoke cards seen to date, and I've seen nothing that would make me want to Evoke a creature rather than wait a turn or 2 and hardcast it.
Thanks IM
EDIT: Rereads the revised second ability. Then again...
Cloudthresher is fun. A big green reach that isn't a spider (i.e. P<T). Despite CCCC it's an attractive cost; hardly a constructed card, but conceivably sideboardable for the evoke; and the good thing about sideboarding evoke cards is that you occasionally get to play them straight. 2GG is over the odds to Hurricane for 2 - except that you get to block and kill pretty much any big flier or groundpounder in the process, and more to the point you're doing so at instant speed.
Phil
Don't forget the possibility of Evoking something and then cheating on the sacrifice by Blink or something similar.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
That's a particular cycle; Cloudthresher isn't part of it. It's just continuing green's tradition of oversized rare elementals. Shame it doesn't have trample; its cost looks appealing, but it's still essentially a vanilla blocker after it drops.
Phil
Against control you don't need to play a 3rd creature on turn 4 (except perhaps Gaddock Teeg/Saffi Eriksdotter). Glorius Anthem and vigilance doesn't hurt here - it's damage. How is that not playing a Serra Avenger ?
It also commits less to the board.
Secondly, he turns all of your creatures into more substantial threats and doesn't die to creature removal.
Thirdly... he wins the aggro mirror and probably makes White/X/y aggro a helluva lot stronger than it's burn counterpart when they clash heads. For instance - G/W traditionally beats G/R based on lifegain and bigger beatsticks. Which is essentially what Ajani does. The lifegain is not insubstantial in this match up either. The importantance of Lightning Helix compared to Incinerate is well noted in this context.
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Except that most of the prices of the creatures differ from their evoke costs by less than or equal to two mana. So basically, you're paying 1W and a card instead of GG, and in return you get an extra 2 hurricane damage. Not to mention Blink isn't in Lorwyn, so there's no limited synergy, and I haven't seen any constructed-worthy Evoke creatures other than possibly Shriekmaw or the Council or the Soritami evoker. The council one could easily go into a blink deck, as blinking it would allow you to draw 2 additional cards, but other than that there really are no playable situations combining Evoke with a Blink effect.
Thanks IM
But that'll change when say you've got a Shriekmaw, less than 5 mana and a creature that needs to die now.
Obviously you'd prefer to wait. You'd prefer to always use your kickers too - but sometimes you need the effect immediately.
I do agree, however, that many of the good evoke creatures don't seem to have a large enough discount to make me want to forgo the creature without some strong motivation (i.e. a really bad board position).
Actually, now that you mention it, Evoke is more like a reverse-kicker effect than Kicker itself...I mean, instead of playing a creature and paying extra to get a spell effect...you're paying discout to get the effect but not the creature. Hmmmm....$5 says Evoke was an idea based on some Kicker-variant (which it is, come to think of it)
But they're not fighting each other, are they? It's not so much the Spirit vs. Flesh thing. It's more, every tribe for itself thing....
You're forgetting that Kithkin aren't the only white tribe, and the other tribe cares a lot about tap effects that will synergize very nicely with vigilance.
-E
I dunno, then play Marshaling Cry. It'll give you a couple turns of the same effect at least. And at least it can't be Incinerated, and can be cycled when it would otherwise be useless.
Also, Ajani does not combine very well with one of the most interesting weenie horde cards we've seen so far - Militia's Pride. You can't pump the creatures you control AND the Kithkin you're going to get, whereas something like Kjeldoran War Cry or Surge of Thoughtweft can get both, are significantly cheaper, and carry other useful effects.
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Although, it should be said that with Ajani and the Pride, White based aggro decks are going to have a strong game against *** and it's ilk.
Marshalling Cry is one card with a temporary pump and one effect. Ajani is one card with permanent pump and several effects. If it draws an incinerate, GOOD. It didn't hit me, or any of the creatures that it pumped to make it vulnerable to incinerate.
-E
Cards like Cloudthresher show how relatively inefficient or inflexible cards like Silklash Spider and Scaled Wurm are.
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But, , given how creature filled Lorwyn is, I wouldn't be suprised to see a mono, or mostly green Big Mana control deck. The kind that just sits behind a wall of accelerrants (wall of roots) and powers out big fun spells. If such a deck does emerge, it will most likely run 4 Summoner's Pact, with a toolbox of fun things to search up. In this hypothetical deck, the cloudthreser makes an amazing one of, but nothing more.
Also, Ajani is suddenly great. Before his second ability was the only useful one, and then only as a weak crusade variant. Permanently pumping your troops, and letting them hang back as blockers basically dominates the aggro mirror. Definitely a great way to finish off your Kithkin curve. Doesn't hurt that it can turn into a game winning threat against a control player whom, most likely, hasn't hurt your life total.
Maybe there'll be a Sneak Attack like card that you can use *shrugs*
Jace is nice. I think all the planeswalkers are playable but not broken. I guess that's probably what they were aiming for.
Yeah, that's the big news for me.
I'm not put off by the mana cost. In fact, I enjoy it. Many of my decks are mono-green or heavy-green, and have no problem with it. Hell, make it GGGGGG if you want. Rushwood Elemental is a good friend of mine. Yeah, Moldervine Cloak will be rotating. Big deal! You don't think there'll be anything playable in LOR to make green playable?
The design is impeccable. People are going to say "it's unplayable because it doesn't have evasion". Bullcrap! Think a little harder. Imagine you're facing a typical board of a few flying creatures and a few ground attackers. You don't see how this guy will turn the tide for you? Play it with Flash when they attack. Block their biggest thread, be it flying or non-flying - it's your choice. The comes into play ability will take care of any smaller fliers. And each player takes 2. You kill the biggest threat, untap, and you're ready for the offensive. Not only did you get a creature effectively with "haste", meaning you may get through for 7, but you ALREADY hit them for 2 AND took out at least one of their creatures. So he hasn't got trample, big deal. Your mana is uptapped - slap a Hammer on him or something if you really need it.
The evoke cost is just gravy. Slap him in a deck with a bit of black. Evoke him out (as an instant, even) and then uptap and Zombify him. You get a 7/7 with multiple abilities on turn 4, and he got HIMSELF into the graveyard. Reminds me of cycling.
7/7 flash reach woulda done it for me, at 6 mana. The two extra abilities, which are powerful and provide options, just put it right up there with cards like Silvos, Rogue Elemental and Weatherseed Treefolk. Very green, efficient, and useful abilities.
Another thing to point out about the 7 power is that it's a 3 turn clock. If you can kill or tap potential blockers, this guy only needs to hit 3 times to win it for you. Actually, he does 2 when it comes into play... all you need to do it hit with him twice, and scrounge up another 4 damage from other creatures.
1) Bird
2) Elf
3) Some kind of attacker
4) ... flash out Thresher
And yes, people are going to whine. It's too green, it can die, and so on. Yup. That's why I'll have 4 in my deck. If you kill one, you better be holding another spell for the other guy in my hand! Not to mention the 4/4s and 5/5 tramples and 3/2 shrouds that I'll be drawing into or holding in hand.
Sometimes he'll dominate the board, and that's what it takes to make me put it in a deck.
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This coloured mana cost creep **** started in TSP, and it needs to stop, it was by far the worst thing about TSP draft and limited.
If this is intended as constructed driven card then fair enough. But seriously, how many green sources are you going to need to be comfortable playing this in limited? Around twelve, that's how many.