This is exactly the kind of thing I want to see. I'm not much for blue, but the Merfolk is definitely solid. My only mono blue deck is a Merfolk deck. "Treasures of the Undertide" Anyway, I absolutely love the Kithkin. Wizards said they were going to not only be formidable, but also feared in numbers. This card demonstrates that perfectly. Weenie decks beware this card. It can take out 5 X/1's without breaking a sweat, and then it can attack, and do it all over again. I am loving this card. Can't wait for the prerelease next weekend!
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"It's unpleasantly like being drunk, " said Ford.
"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?" asked Arthur.
"You ask a glass of water."
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And the kithkin is ok... If you play White Kithkin Weenie, you can have lots of tokens and champion one of them at your fourth turn for the finisher. Nice.
You don't want to champion a token if you can avoid it, it won't come back if your creature is dealt with. Ideally, you want to champion something cheap with a decent CITP or leaves-play ability.
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If God spoke to you, and commanded you to kill your own children, would you do it?
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
You don't want to champion a token if you can avoid it, it won't come back if your creature is dealt with. Ideally, you want to champion something cheap with a decent CITP or leaves-play ability.
The point is: I expect to finish the game with this guy. So, I rather have a W 2/2 Kithkin in play for the next turns than a dumb 1/1 token... If the guy is killed, well, the 1/1 is not a big of a loss...
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Current Playing [T2]:
UBB Rogues UUB Faeries RW Seismic Swans RRR Control
I am pretty sure the Merfolk Champion is Wanderwine Prophets, the one that lets you take extra turns.
If that's the case then I hope merfolk get another one... cus frankly it sucks and by the example all the other tribal champions with the exception of shapeshifters(not sure about giants and treefolk) and elementals... are 4cmc for a 5/5 body why hate out merfolk?
Cards like "Summon the School" and "Sygg, River Guide" show that merfolk should be a cheap and efficient tribe or at least low costed compared to the treefolk and giants....
Let me see, so we still get spoiled a Merfolk Harbringer, Merfolk Lord, Merfolk 1cc's. I think there multiple because in each set there are more then one 1cc's blue creatures. They ain't gonna be faeries.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
The Kithkin champion, however, has the same problem that all dumb creatures have: He's too easy to deal with. Everybody in the tournament scene packs removal, and he has a big bullseye on his head. Also, the champion part sucks, because it means he's not splashable, you have to be playing MWA Kithkin to use him. And I doubt that will do well.
As stated previously, with the rumored Tradewind merrow this merfolk is going to see lots of play. If we get even one half way decent Tribal - Merfolk instant or sorcery then he will be in even more decks. I expect to see him a lot on the other side of the table.
The Kithkin is a house if he resolves properly. In limited he is not so hot, same with the other non-changeling champions. In constructed he will see play if Kithkin are playable at all.
Overall I like both of these cards, they make me happy.
You don't want to champion a token if you can avoid it, it won't come back if your creature is dealt with. Ideally, you want to champion something cheap with a decent CITP or leaves-play ability.
Actually, here is a thought:
Run a tribal deck with lots of creatures with the champion ability and wrath effects. That way when you are forced to wrath, you still end up with a few creatures surviving.
Should the Tradewind Merfolk turn out to be a wizard too, we've just been given one of the most powerful toolboxes in Type 2!
Come on, Hydro! Spoil us some merfolk love ok?
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People hiss and grunt at Mark Rosewater for the state of the game. Few realize, though, that it is Aaron Forsythe who is directly responsible of the current state of affairs due to negligence as head of Magic R&D and a completely skewed view of the game as a whole.
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
The Kithkin champion, however, has the same problem that all dumb creatures have: He's too easy to deal with. Everybody in the tournament scene packs removal, and he has a big bullseye on his head.
This has me worried, too. Now, the fact that champion works like a "nightmare" ability wherein you get your dude back if the Champion dies makes it slightly appealing, but there's been an aggressive push toward creature removal in enchantment form that doesn't remove the offender from the board. The champion mechanic could set you up for an easy 2-in-1.
The coolest thing about the trio is how many creatures it can block without dying. 9 saprolings would break like water on their shields because of first strike. Given the way it looks like kithkin are going to play, it's going to be incredible.
As cool as the card is, it's still pretty depressing that the Champion mechanic is almost an identical rehashing of the Wormfang Drake mechanic. Incredibly, they've managed to repackage what was clearly a downside in the mechanic's first iteration into a supposed upside, and we're all buying into it.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
Something about just these two cards is really turning Lorwyn around for me. I love the new world and flavor they've built (although I wonder if it's all too much of one thing), but thus far the mechanics of this set seemed somewhat uninteresting for me. However, I'm really excited about this pair. Both are the kind of cards I really enjoy playing with. I'll be grabbing a playset of each and I'm looking forward to more cards.
The Kithkin is a house if he resolves properly. In limited he is not so hot, same with the other non-changeling champions.
I fail to see how Thoughtweft Trio is not a powerhouse in limited. Yes, there are ways to stop it from coming into play, ways that you can get two-for-oned, but (a) if you're a good player you can avoid this most of the time (i.e. don't play the Trio when your only other Kithkin is an X/2, your opponent has a Mountain untapped, and you know he's playing with multiple Tarfires), and (b) just like a lot of other limited powerhouses, if you can get him into play, he will ruin your opponent's day (almost) single-handedly.
I also don't expect finding other Kithkin (in limited) to champion will be that difficult. That problem came up rarely in Onslaught limited, and while there are a few more tribes this time around, there are also enchantments--maybe even artifacts?--that can be championed also.
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"Why should I boast? The bards will do it for me--and with music." --Ertai, wizard adept
As cool as the card is, it's still pretty depressing that the Champion mechanic is almost an identical rehashing of the Wormfang Drake mechanic. Incredibly, they've managed to repackage what was clearly a downside in the mechanic's first iteration into a supposed upside, and we're all buying into it.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
Everything Wizards has done since Ice Age has pretty much been a rehash on something else.
If you dont like it, you could try out Yu-Gi-Ho or Pokemon, I hear they only have new fresh ideas!!
Seriously, in a game as old as Magic, its going to have abilities that are slightly tweaked versions of old Abilities.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
Assuming that this is, as you say, "an indication of dwindling design space in Magic," how do you explain the creation of Planeswalkers, an entirely new card type that works completely differently than every other card type?
If this isn't an indication that there is still lots of design space in Magic to be explored, then I don't know what is.
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"Why should I boast? The bards will do it for me--and with music." --Ertai, wizard adept
As cool as the card is, it's still pretty depressing that the Champion mechanic is almost an identical rehashing of the Wormfang Drake mechanic. Incredibly, they've managed to repackage what was clearly a downside in the mechanic's first iteration into a supposed upside, and we're all buying into it.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
It's really not. R&D has taken a mechanic that was expanded in one way (giving up permanents your opponent controlled, or all your life, or other odd things) and redefined it to play in a new way by completely changing the restrictions that apply to it -- and pushing it (because, outside the combo implications of Worldgorger Dragon, the Judgment negative-nightmares were never any good) to be playable at the same time. Even though it shares a mechanical basis, the actual effect on deck-building and play (which are far more important than abstract design appreciation) is very different.
Well, they're basically legendary enchantments which have the additional drawback that they can be attacked and burned like players. Not really original...
We've discussed that many many times.
Echantments are just colored artifacts.
And creatures are just colored artifacts with power/toughness and they can attack.
Instants are just sorceries with flash.
Planeswalkers ARE new, you even forget about their loyalty.
We've discussed that many many times.
Echantments are just colored artifacts.
And creatures are just colored artifacts with power/toughness and they can attack.
Instants are just sorceries with flash.
Planeswalkers ARE new, you even forget about their loyalty.
And whatabout lands?
I actually misread the kitkin... I thought it was 4WW. So, DAMN!, that card is good. Really, this guy is hard to beef, and if you did, he still got at least one creature.
4 mana
first strike, vigilance
can block many creatures
5/5
Pfff, out of balance. Really. Not that I mind but green should get this babies, well actually never mind. They've got goyf.
It's good for white to have a decent non-weenie, with a weenie cost, which actually comes into play with weenies, with a weenie cost.
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hey i have managed to evolve my axolotls by feeding them thyroid glands the thyroxine contained in these gland is enough to change these water dwelling creatures into land based creatures
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
I actually misread the kitkin... I thought it was 4WW. So, DAMN!, that card is good. Really, this guy is hard to beef, and if you did, he still got at least one creature.
4 mana
first strike, vigilance
can block many creatures
5/5
Pfff, out of balance. Really. Not that I mind but green should get this babies, well actually never mind. They've got goyf.
It's good for white to have a decent non-weenie, with a weenie cost, which actually comes into play with weenies, with a weenie cost.
Lands are just creatures with no manacost, no p/t with a restriction of one each turn and they usually tap for mana.
Well, green does have a 4 mana 5/5 creature that *****s out 2/2 deathtouch tokens. Combined with elves other theme, fast mana, that is very awesome.
The only thing I don't like about The Kithkin Champion is how bad he makes the Merfolk one look.
This is exactly what Kithkin needed to make a viable deck in block and standard. It sits at the top of an aggro curve and when it comes down it changes the game, especially against other aggro decks.
-T-
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Standard-WW, Artifact/W Aggro.
Extended-?
Legacy-Mono Blue Fish.
Does choice of a kithkin to champion hit the stack? thanks
No. The ability that prompts you to choose one does though, but by the time you actually choose one, the ability is already resolving. So, to answer the deeper question, no, they cannot respond one you've choosen a victim.
EDIT: Champion does kinda suck if you've only got one target on the board.
As cool as the card is, it's still pretty depressing that the Champion mechanic is almost an identical rehashing of the Wormfang Drake mechanic. Incredibly, they've managed to repackage what was clearly a downside in the mechanic's first iteration into a supposed upside, and we're all buying into it.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
Wormfang Drake = 1 card. I doubt that we will suffer from the redundancy.
Dwindling design space: They slightly played with the color scheme in Planar Chaos, and people responded by putting avatars of MaRo peeing on their beloved pie charts. If they do anything too inventive, the surprisingly conservative majority of players will cry heresy.
I would be interested to hear a mechanic that you have invented that you would consider "unexplored space". What criteria are you looking for? Not saying you don't have ideas (I indeed have some myself) but it would be a more useful critique if you can explain what you want.
Myself, I was impressed how they carried out the concept of planeswalker buddies in this set.
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"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?" asked Arthur.
"You ask a glass of water."
You don't want to champion a token if you can avoid it, it won't come back if your creature is dealt with. Ideally, you want to champion something cheap with a decent CITP or leaves-play ability.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
The point is: I expect to finish the game with this guy. So, I rather have a W 2/2 Kithkin in play for the next turns than a dumb 1/1 token... If the guy is killed, well, the 1/1 is not a big of a loss...
UBB Rogues
UUB Faeries
RW Seismic Swans
RRR Control
If that's the case then I hope merfolk get another one... cus frankly it sucks and by the example all the other tribal champions with the exception of shapeshifters(not sure about giants and treefolk) and elementals... are 4cmc for a 5/5 body why hate out merfolk?
Cards like "Summon the School" and "Sygg, River Guide" show that merfolk should be a cheap and efficient tribe or at least low costed compared to the treefolk and giants....
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
The Kithkin champion, however, has the same problem that all dumb creatures have: He's too easy to deal with. Everybody in the tournament scene packs removal, and he has a big bullseye on his head. Also, the champion part sucks, because it means he's not splashable, you have to be playing MWA Kithkin to use him. And I doubt that will do well.
The Kithkin is a house if he resolves properly. In limited he is not so hot, same with the other non-changeling champions. In constructed he will see play if Kithkin are playable at all.
Overall I like both of these cards, they make me happy.
Actually, here is a thought:
Run a tribal deck with lots of creatures with the champion ability and wrath effects. That way when you are forced to wrath, you still end up with a few creatures surviving.
For those of you not jumping out of your chairs right now, this means you can Wizardcycle them (or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, or Venser, Shaper Savant) thanks to Vedalken Aethermage!
Should the Tradewind Merfolk turn out to be a wizard too, we've just been given one of the most powerful toolboxes in Type 2!
Come on, Hydro! Spoil us some merfolk love ok?
So next time you want to make an avvy with Rosewater pissing on something, take a deep breath and consider pasting Forsythe's face there instead...
This has me worried, too. Now, the fact that champion works like a "nightmare" ability wherein you get your dude back if the Champion dies makes it slightly appealing, but there's been an aggressive push toward creature removal in enchantment form that doesn't remove the offender from the board. The champion mechanic could set you up for an easy 2-in-1.
Memento Mori, if the nineth lion ate the sun.
It this isn't an indication of dwindling design space in Magic - or of WotC's inability to tap into unexplored space - then I don't know what is.
RRR Buy some of my art! Prints! RRR
I fail to see how Thoughtweft Trio is not a powerhouse in limited. Yes, there are ways to stop it from coming into play, ways that you can get two-for-oned, but (a) if you're a good player you can avoid this most of the time (i.e. don't play the Trio when your only other Kithkin is an X/2, your opponent has a Mountain untapped, and you know he's playing with multiple Tarfires), and (b) just like a lot of other limited powerhouses, if you can get him into play, he will ruin your opponent's day (almost) single-handedly.
I also don't expect finding other Kithkin (in limited) to champion will be that difficult. That problem came up rarely in Onslaught limited, and while there are a few more tribes this time around, there are also enchantments--maybe even artifacts?--that can be championed also.
--Ertai, wizard adept
Everything Wizards has done since Ice Age has pretty much been a rehash on something else.
If you dont like it, you could try out Yu-Gi-Ho or Pokemon, I hear they only have new fresh ideas!!
Seriously, in a game as old as Magic, its going to have abilities that are slightly tweaked versions of old Abilities.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Assuming that this is, as you say, "an indication of dwindling design space in Magic," how do you explain the creation of Planeswalkers, an entirely new card type that works completely differently than every other card type?
If this isn't an indication that there is still lots of design space in Magic to be explored, then I don't know what is.
--Ertai, wizard adept
It's really not. R&D has taken a mechanic that was expanded in one way (giving up permanents your opponent controlled, or all your life, or other odd things) and redefined it to play in a new way by completely changing the restrictions that apply to it -- and pushing it (because, outside the combo implications of Worldgorger Dragon, the Judgment negative-nightmares were never any good) to be playable at the same time. Even though it shares a mechanical basis, the actual effect on deck-building and play (which are far more important than abstract design appreciation) is very different.
We've discussed that many many times.
Echantments are just colored artifacts.
And creatures are just colored artifacts with power/toughness and they can attack.
Instants are just sorceries with flash.
Planeswalkers ARE new, you even forget about their loyalty.
And whatabout lands?
I actually misread the kitkin... I thought it was 4WW. So, DAMN!, that card is good. Really, this guy is hard to beef, and if you did, he still got at least one creature.
4 mana
first strike, vigilance
can block many creatures
5/5
Pfff, out of balance. Really. Not that I mind but green should get this babies, well actually never mind. They've got goyf.
It's good for white to have a decent non-weenie, with a weenie cost, which actually comes into play with weenies, with a weenie cost.
Posted by: Tay Collins | January 20, 2010 6:45 AM
Tay, that's not evolution. It's metamorphosis. Evolution means descent with heritable modification – individuals cannot evolve, unless they're Pokemon.
Posted by: David Marjanović | January 20, 2010 8:55 AM
Lands are just creatures with no manacost, no p/t with a restriction of one each turn and they usually tap for mana.
Well, green does have a 4 mana 5/5 creature that *****s out 2/2 deathtouch tokens. Combined with elves other theme, fast mana, that is very awesome.
Every factor of the card, and how they work together makes it a really new card type.
This is exactly what Kithkin needed to make a viable deck in block and standard. It sits at the top of an aggro curve and when it comes down it changes the game, especially against other aggro decks.
-T-
Extended-?
Legacy-Mono Blue Fish.
No. The ability that prompts you to choose one does though, but by the time you actually choose one, the ability is already resolving. So, to answer the deeper question, no, they cannot respond one you've choosen a victim.
EDIT: Champion does kinda suck if you've only got one target on the board.
Wormfang Drake = 1 card. I doubt that we will suffer from the redundancy.
Dwindling design space: They slightly played with the color scheme in Planar Chaos, and people responded by putting avatars of MaRo peeing on their beloved pie charts. If they do anything too inventive, the surprisingly conservative majority of players will cry heresy.
I would be interested to hear a mechanic that you have invented that you would consider "unexplored space". What criteria are you looking for? Not saying you don't have ideas (I indeed have some myself) but it would be a more useful critique if you can explain what you want.
Myself, I was impressed how they carried out the concept of planeswalker buddies in this set.