i really like these new duals. although they arent as good as the RAV duals, i think theyre strictly better than painlands. itll be interesting to see the effect on standard that these have.
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Think about the color configuration and then remember Ravnica... Not all the tribes were shown the same favor, but the cycle was rounded out in the next 2 sets. This brings me to the conclusion that the last 4 lands will be in the follow-up set, which as I recall is Morningtide. If they are not there, then remember that Lorwyn Dusk is next up and we could see the last 4 there with the missing 4 tribes. I think that Lorwyn Dusk is the opposite side that never sees the light, unless this world is flat like Rath, or has five suns like Mirrodin. And speaking of Mirrodin, I think we'll see lots of artifacts again!
i really like these new duals. although they arent as good as the RAV duals, i think theyre strictly better than painlands. itll be interesting to see the effect on standard that these have.
"strictly better" means its better in all aspects. what if you are playing a g/b deck with no elves. and you need a 3rd land to cast your 3cc card. and you draw this. a painland would enable you to play it. this wouldnt
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
My OCD is kind of flipping out right now, 'cause there isn't a symmetry in the distribution of lands. Teeg.dec needs Brushland then, eh? Not like I wasn't going to include it anyway.
The artwork is quite pleasing - I hope the same artist worked on the other 4 (5?) - is this how it normally works?
Since we know that there aren't 8 (ie, not one for each tribe), but more than 1. So 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7.
We also know the article mentions two-colour combinations many times. Not three, and not all five. The 6 tribes that only have two colours are: kithkin, elves, goblins, merfolk, faeries, and giants.
It says the racelands were designed to help decks with weenie creatures. That removes giants.
Using article information alone, that means that AT MOST, there's a raceland for elves plus:
goblins
faeries
merfolk
kithkin
IMO, merfolk, faeries, and goblins need racelands the most.
Next, I have to say that I'm happy to see a tapland now. And sometimes you can make it come into play untapped, if you build your deck that way. Hopefully the other enemy coloured taplands will all see print. Maybe later this block?
Lastly, elves rock, and so does golgari. Black and green rocks, elves rock, and therefore Gilt-Leaf Palace rocks. Amen.
There's thusly 3 White, 3 Black. 2 Green, 2 Blue, and 2 Red, making a cycle that fits the Tribes, but still feels very complete even without a full 10.
We could later see (pure speculation):
- Spirit
- Beast/Elemental/?????
- Beast/Kavu
- Snake
It would still fit in existing tribal patterns very well, without resorting to Class (ie :symur:Wizard or :symwb:Cleric or :symrg:Shaman).
I suppose not everything has to be a "complete" cycle but it feels like such a ripoff if only 6/10 came from the whole block.
I don't see why they WOULDN'T create G/W and R/W racelands. The article does mention weenie strategies, but it also mentions creature-based strategies.
It doesn't get more weenie than Kithkin, and yet many of you argue there WON'T be a Kithkin land?
I don't buy it.
I expect we'll see 6 racelands in this set, and the remaining 4 in the next set.
If G/W isn't going to be Kithkin, what IS it going to be?
"strictly better" means its better in all aspects. what if you are playing a g/b deck with no elves. and you need a 3rd land to cast your 3cc card. and you draw this. a painland would enable you to play it. this wouldnt
But it wouldn't help if you are on 1 life. Neither would a G/B dual be if your opponent can destroy forests and swamps with a spell.
Strictly better is a very tricky sentence.
But it wouldn't help if you are on 1 life. Neither would a G/B dual be if your opponent can destroy forests and swamps with a spell.
Strictly better is a very tricky sentence.
Right, the point is, neither one of these lands is strictly better than the other. These come into play tapped occasionally, and painlands hurt you.
These ARE strictly better than the invasion Taplands (Coastal Tower, for example), since it does the exact same thing plus a bonus effect.
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I find this 'cycle' so... random. Each tribe is supposed to get one, but since Treefolk are 3-color and Elementals are generally just :symr:, they aren't in on the fun. So that leaves 6 two color tribes... to fight over just FIVE slots for these? I wonder which one gets left out... Kithkin (W/G), Merrow (U/W), Giants (R/W), Boggarts (R/B) or Faeries (U/B). One of these tribes gets the shaft for no good reason other than set space or the obsessive-compulsive need for land cycles to be printed as 5s or 10s.
Another problem I have is the randomness of the color combinations. One opposing color combination is confirmed by the preview. Therefore, it's not going to be simply allied colors only or opposing colors only. It's the "lucky" color combinations that get extra manabase help. Why should B/G get an extra, painfree, good dual to help deck construction while U/R doesn't?
The only way I see this cycle not being totally random is the inclusion of 4 new tribes in Morningtide to represent U/R, W/B, U/G and R/G as well as the late printing of the shafted Lorwyn tribe's dual.
I think it's mostly likely that the Elf land and the Kithkin land (if it exists) will be the more heavily played ones (simply because these decks will have better creatures to use the lands with).
If the Merfolk, Goblins and Faerie's get more (and better) aggroish creatures, then these will also be played.
Having said that, I would still prefer the Ravnica duals...simply because I generally play decks with less creatures (or at least, less creatures that share creature types - Combo and Control)
Hmm, where to start. It seems R_E, Hydro, and IM aren't... 'synchronized'? perhaps... Hydro seems confident in IM's confirmation of R/W giant land, yet R_E isn't? That aside, I am happy to see a CiP tapped enemy color land, despite the rarity, but I am also sad that its highly likely to be the only one of it's kind in this set Heres hoping for RU, UG, BW !
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Guuuhhh, I'm done argueing this. They should just change the term from "strictly better" to "reasonably better" so all these stupid arguements will end.
"Reasonably better" is a strictly better phrasing for that. Good job.
*flee*
On topic (the actual topic), I really do like the art on this land. I really do lament the lack of basic land types on these cards, though I understand. I really have been spoiled by Ravnican goodness. And I really hope they find a creative and logical reason to finish the cycle out. Maybe in Jelly.
I really hope they reveal the actual name of Jelly soon so they we can stop talking about cards that'll show up in Jelly. Talk about things that'll look weird out of context.
They were talking about the triballands being strictly better than painlands.. But since they have totally different effects, I think you can't compare them.
Or you could play 100 games, 50 of them with painlands and 50 with triballands, and than note everything down.
Edit: Wildfire and Haiku Ninja I was being sarcastic.
Who knows if these cards are playable? What we may all agree on is that in a well adapted deck, this card is definitely better than a ravnica dual land. I think it'll be interesting seeing its value. Some of the lands in this cycle might actually see play.
They seem ok , although not worth rare slots to be sure.
This is the 1 time I would be REALLY disappointed to see a dual in my rare slot.
I cannot understand why these are rare compared to taplands (yes they are better in tribal decks but seriously apart from goblins once this block rotates you will never again see half the tribes).
I am also disappointed with the art for the elf 1 I really wish they had got Rob Alexander to do it as I have yet to see an art of his I havn't been wow'd by.
I agree 100% with you on this one. This cycle would have been great at uncommon. Like this, it's a T2/block only cycle of rare duals (except for the goblin one, and that's a big if too) that is bound to fetch at least a midrange price without holding any lasting value. Too bad.
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I have an interesting theory so I wanna run it by the masses...
This set is shaping up to be, as we all are aware, VERY tribal. Maybe more so than any set in the past. (This may be a bit of a stretch what with Slivers running around since a little ol' block known as Tempest, but none the less...)
Now any time I see a tribal theme, my brain starts working in a weird way. I start to wonder about the time honoured deck archtype... Mono. Mono Blue, Mono Black, Mono White, etc. Now this doesn't necessarily mean "weenie", but the two (Mono + Weenie) have been synonymous for a while.
As far as these dual lands go, they're decent. Now obviously, we don't have a lot of cards revealed thus far, but I know as it stands now, elves in Black are very few. And, obviously, this does not count any Changelings. A search of the Gatherer, in Time Spiral block (for this will be the the new Standard in a few weeks), reveals no black elves. Only green.
I don't know exactly where I'm going with this... lol. But honestly, these lands are nice, but not jaw droppingly amazing. I wonder if people are going to find fun and exciting ways to run Mono colour decks and do well with them. Cuz like I said, to me, Tribal means Mono....
Just a thought...
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I think the five lands are very likely to be Faeries (UB), Elves (BG), Goblins (BR), Kithkin (GW), and Merrow (WU) because based on the informaton in the article, these lands are geared toward powering up aggro strategies, and those are the aggro tribes.
That is disappointing because it ruins symmetry and color balance: four of those lands are allied colors, but one is an enemy pair, leaving the allied pair GR with no land. I hope Morningtide or Jelly (Shadowfall?) will print tribal lands of the appropriate colors to address this deficiency, but I doubt it will happen, because WotC is unlikely to spend another five slot on a similar cycle in a small set or in the first set of a new block (with presumably new themes).
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. . . the subtle but intentional way they've played and off against each other in the tribes' color distribution . . . of the 8 tribes, there are 3 :symw:/:xmana: two color tribes and 3 :symb:/:xmana: two color tribes, with each of :symu:, :symg:, and filling the second position once or twice. The two other tribes are elementals, which are five colored, and treefolk, which are traditionally but also both AND :symb:.
This is something I hadn't even thought about, but when I checked it out it makes so much sense! Untill I saw this I couldn't figure out the color layout of the set, but now it all falls into place- W/G, W/U, W/R, B/G, B/U, B/R, W/G/B, and 5 color.
Following this neat color setup, we can assume that the lands are organized similarly. Initially, I would expect 6 tribe lands, but Devin Low basically said that this wasn't going to occur and IM already rumored the lack of a Kithkin (W/G) land. This means there will be 2, 3, 4, or 5 lands for sure; of those combinations, only four makes sense in any balanced sort of way. If the tribe lands are organized after the colors (and from what we've seen in this set, it is a very meticulously designed and organized set) we can expect macthing white lands for matching black lands- that is, a W/U to match the B/U, and a W/R to match the B/G.
This itself has a neat little symetry- black and white both have an opposed color land and an allied color land, which just so happens to be blue, the connecting color between black and white! Thus, my prediction (and I'm betting hojillions of dollars on this) is that it will be Merrow, Faerie, Giant and Elf.
Furthermore, introducing two blue lands with supporting tribes is indicative of wizards trying to provide blue with more options for play, instead of just counter-control. I'm the king of the mars, and you must pay me moon tax for looking at it. Ollie ollie oxenfrie, it's four-thirty in the morning and no one is going to read this post because it's so long. In addition, I prefer marmalde to jam in my boots, due to the interesting texture. Deven Low actually talks specifically about this in his article, stating that the lands are "a good example of the many ways Lorwyn moves to put the emphasis of Magic on creatures fighting each other, and backed up by spells, instead of just endless playing of Compulsive Research and Remand."
I've always thought that the only way to make the game fun for both players that play blue and the people that play against them was to provide blue interesting options other than counterspells and draw cards. Placing it directly between black and white in a block that is designed around the two colors being opposed should do just that indeed.
Not spectactular or anything, but it means you have both black and green mana on turn two, so you can play a Llanowar Dead (possibly after revealing it via another Palace).
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The kithken need a two mana land to make having a W/g kithken deck more playable.
Most people might not even have w in a merfolk deck because there isn't very much white cards in Lorywn that would make white in a merfolk deck advantageous ( This is coming from someone who likes u/w and likes merfolk. PLEASE let there be white cards in Lorywn that will make a u/w merfolk deck not very crazy. ).
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It's odd that you don't mention Boggarts. If you don't mind me asking, is this because you just don't know for sure or because they will be left out?
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"strictly better" means its better in all aspects. what if you are playing a g/b deck with no elves. and you need a 3rd land to cast your 3cc card. and you draw this. a painland would enable you to play it. this wouldnt
The artwork is quite pleasing - I hope the same artist worked on the other 4 (5?) - is this how it normally works?
We also know the article mentions two-colour combinations many times. Not three, and not all five. The 6 tribes that only have two colours are: kithkin, elves, goblins, merfolk, faeries, and giants.
It says the racelands were designed to help decks with weenie creatures. That removes giants.
Using article information alone, that means that AT MOST, there's a raceland for elves plus:
goblins
faeries
merfolk
kithkin
IMO, merfolk, faeries, and goblins need racelands the most.
Next, I have to say that I'm happy to see a tapland now. And sometimes you can make it come into play untapped, if you build your deck that way. Hopefully the other enemy coloured taplands will all see print. Maybe later this block?
Lastly, elves rock, and so does golgari. Black and green rocks, elves rock, and therefore Gilt-Leaf Palace rocks. Amen.
.
- Giant
- Kithkin
- Merfolk
- Faerie
- Elf
- Goblin
There's thusly 3 White, 3 Black. 2 Green, 2 Blue, and 2 Red, making a cycle that fits the Tribes, but still feels very complete even without a full 10.
We could later see (pure speculation):
- Spirit
- Beast/Elemental/?????
- Beast/Kavu
- Snake
It would still fit in existing tribal patterns very well, without resorting to Class (ie :symur:Wizard or :symwb:Cleric or :symrg:Shaman).
I suppose not everything has to be a "complete" cycle but it feels like such a ripoff if only 6/10 came from the whole block.
It doesn't get more weenie than Kithkin, and yet many of you argue there WON'T be a Kithkin land?
I don't buy it.
I expect we'll see 6 racelands in this set, and the remaining 4 in the next set.
If G/W isn't going to be Kithkin, what IS it going to be?
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I have a feeling we may see a different type of tribal land for the treefolk and elemental tribes.
Perhaps a 5 color land that can only be used for elemental spells?
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But it wouldn't help if you are on 1 life. Neither would a G/B dual be if your opponent can destroy forests and swamps with a spell.
Strictly better is a very tricky sentence.
Right, the point is, neither one of these lands is strictly better than the other. These come into play tapped occasionally, and painlands hurt you.
These ARE strictly better than the invasion Taplands (Coastal Tower, for example), since it does the exact same thing plus a bonus effect.
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Another problem I have is the randomness of the color combinations. One opposing color combination is confirmed by the preview. Therefore, it's not going to be simply allied colors only or opposing colors only. It's the "lucky" color combinations that get extra manabase help. Why should B/G get an extra, painfree, good dual to help deck construction while U/R doesn't?
The only way I see this cycle not being totally random is the inclusion of 4 new tribes in Morningtide to represent U/R, W/B, U/G and R/G as well as the late printing of the shafted Lorwyn tribe's dual.
If the Merfolk, Goblins and Faerie's get more (and better) aggroish creatures, then these will also be played.
Having said that, I would still prefer the Ravnica duals...simply because I generally play decks with less creatures (or at least, less creatures that share creature types - Combo and Control)
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"Reasonably better" is a strictly better phrasing for that. Good job.
*flee*
On topic (the actual topic), I really do like the art on this land. I really do lament the lack of basic land types on these cards, though I understand. I really have been spoiled by Ravnican goodness. And I really hope they find a creative and logical reason to finish the cycle out. Maybe in Jelly.
I really hope they reveal the actual name of Jelly soon so they we can stop talking about cards that'll show up in Jelly. Talk about things that'll look weird out of context.
-E
Or you could play 100 games, 50 of them with painlands and 50 with triballands, and than note everything down.
Edit: Wildfire and Haiku Ninja I was being sarcastic.
I agree 100% with you on this one. This cycle would have been great at uncommon. Like this, it's a T2/block only cycle of rare duals (except for the goblin one, and that's a big if too) that is bound to fetch at least a midrange price without holding any lasting value. Too bad.
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This set is shaping up to be, as we all are aware, VERY tribal. Maybe more so than any set in the past. (This may be a bit of a stretch what with Slivers running around since a little ol' block known as Tempest, but none the less...)
Now any time I see a tribal theme, my brain starts working in a weird way. I start to wonder about the time honoured deck archtype... Mono. Mono Blue, Mono Black, Mono White, etc. Now this doesn't necessarily mean "weenie", but the two (Mono + Weenie) have been synonymous for a while.
As far as these dual lands go, they're decent. Now obviously, we don't have a lot of cards revealed thus far, but I know as it stands now, elves in Black are very few. And, obviously, this does not count any Changelings. A search of the Gatherer, in Time Spiral block (for this will be the the new Standard in a few weeks), reveals no black elves. Only green.
I don't know exactly where I'm going with this... lol. But honestly, these lands are nice, but not jaw droppingly amazing. I wonder if people are going to find fun and exciting ways to run Mono colour decks and do well with them. Cuz like I said, to me, Tribal means Mono....
Just a thought...
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That is disappointing because it ruins symmetry and color balance: four of those lands are allied colors, but one is an enemy pair, leaving the allied pair GR with no land. I hope Morningtide or Jelly (Shadowfall?) will print tribal lands of the appropriate colors to address this deficiency, but I doubt it will happen, because WotC is unlikely to spend another five slot on a similar cycle in a small set or in the first set of a new block (with presumably new themes).
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His art is so cool I'm glad to see a land from him, he hasn't almoust any other i remember.
This is something I hadn't even thought about, but when I checked it out it makes so much sense! Untill I saw this I couldn't figure out the color layout of the set, but now it all falls into place- W/G, W/U, W/R, B/G, B/U, B/R, W/G/B, and 5 color.
Following this neat color setup, we can assume that the lands are organized similarly. Initially, I would expect 6 tribe lands, but Devin Low basically said that this wasn't going to occur and IM already rumored the lack of a Kithkin (W/G) land. This means there will be 2, 3, 4, or 5 lands for sure; of those combinations, only four makes sense in any balanced sort of way. If the tribe lands are organized after the colors (and from what we've seen in this set, it is a very meticulously designed and organized set) we can expect macthing white lands for matching black lands- that is, a W/U to match the B/U, and a W/R to match the B/G.
This itself has a neat little symetry- black and white both have an opposed color land and an allied color land, which just so happens to be blue, the connecting color between black and white! Thus, my prediction (and I'm betting hojillions of dollars on this) is that it will be Merrow, Faerie, Giant and Elf.
Furthermore, introducing two blue lands with supporting tribes is indicative of wizards trying to provide blue with more options for play, instead of just counter-control. I'm the king of the mars, and you must pay me moon tax for looking at it. Ollie ollie oxenfrie, it's four-thirty in the morning and no one is going to read this post because it's so long. In addition, I prefer marmalde to jam in my boots, due to the interesting texture. Deven Low actually talks specifically about this in his article, stating that the lands are "a good example of the many ways Lorwyn moves to put the emphasis of Magic on creatures fighting each other, and backed up by spells, instead of just endless playing of Compulsive Research and Remand."
I've always thought that the only way to make the game fun for both players that play blue and the people that play against them was to provide blue interesting options other than counterspells and draw cards. Placing it directly between black and white in a block that is designed around the two colors being opposed should do just that indeed.
I suspect a lot of this kind of turn will be made come Lorwyn:
Turn 1: Gilt-Leaf Palace - revealing Llanowar Elves, Llanowar Elves.
Not spectactular or anything, but it means you have both black and green mana on turn two, so you can play a Llanowar Dead (possibly after revealing it via another Palace).
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Most people might not even have w in a merfolk deck because there isn't very much white cards in Lorywn that would make white in a merfolk deck advantageous ( This is coming from someone who likes u/w and likes merfolk. PLEASE let there be white cards in Lorywn that will make a u/w merfolk deck not very crazy. ).