Magic is from before the oceans drank atlantis and the rise of the sons of areus, so it was a bit earlier. But the real issue with the 'two sided cards' is the lack of mechanic difference between them and the flip cards of kamigawa
The reason that they didn't wanna do the Kamigawa flip cards again is because it leaves them with very little room for art or card text thus limiting what the cards can actually do and they have less of a clean look to them. Also cards like Garruk Relentless would be impossible to make as Kamigawa flips and other cards that transform back and forth would get very confusing especially when tapped
Magic is from before the oceans drank atlantis and the rise of the sons of areus, so it was a bit earlier. But the real issue with the 'two sided cards' is the lack of mechanic difference between them and the flip cards of kamigawa
I agree, but don't auras overlap with equipment? also arent PW like a pemin's aura for players? Also love the epic quote.
so if it doesnt have a mana cost, its CMC is 0, right? like ancestral visions? so ratchet bomb at 0 destroys all werewolfs?
I haven't been playing the game for too long, but the "two creatures deal damage to each other" has been a major deterrent from Yu-Gi-Oh to me in my earlier years. Seeing it in Magic just makes me a bit leery, but apparently it isn't new. That does ease a lot of my apprehensions towards it
It's a good mechanic, and works as a form of removal for those decks that do not run colors with efficient removal in them. I can't say anything about Yugioh though, as I know absolutely nothing about that game.
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Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Step One: Dump your hand
Step Two: Hope your opponent can't cast two spells in one turn.
Step Three: Win.
Why would rg werewolves cast more than one werewolf in a turn?
The cards will only be played if BOTH sides have relevant abilities, so it doesn't matter how many spells your opponents cast.
I can agree with your third step.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Another thought: If Garruk is a transformer, then he probably won't really have five abilities. I'd imagine his front-side's ultimate will be to transform him, leaving only four actual abilities (2 non-ultimates on front and 2 abilities on back). MaRo, you tricky son of a gun!
Step One: Dump your hand
Step Two: Hope your opponent can't cast two spells in one turn.
Step Three: Win.
The thing I'm noticing is that the "night" sides of these cards aren't always necessarily better, just different. There's the one where one side is a 2/2 flyer and the other side is a 5/5 beater.
Also, I know in constructed (and in limited somewhat) the average is that a player cast one spell a turn. So without some clever strategy these cards aren't going to be flipping back and forth. In general, if you are an aggro deck the cards will flip more often because they can play more cards a turn. For a control deck they sometimes go turns without playing stuff and the cards will flip the other way more often.
It might be interesting to see the control deck play against these cards because if they don't want them to flip they have to play something during their turn.
Step One: Dump your hand
Step Two: Hope your opponent can't cast two spells in one turn/or have a wrath effect.
Step Three: Win.
Fixed that for you.
But on to the actual mechanic, bah. I'm not a fan of a mechanic which forces me to constantly resleeve parts of my deck while I'm playing it. I mean I go through enough card sleeves as it is without that kind of added crap. Thanks wotc, you suck.
In other news I like fight, now I just hope they reprint Contested Cliffs so that I can do an awesome beast deck and fight fight fight!
Also, morbid seems ok - nothing fancy but intuitive and a decent mechanic to work with.
The spoiled curses card seems pretty weak, but I'm alright with it. Hopefully they print some decent stuff with that keyword to make me want to actually play with it.
Lastly, is there a better scan of the new legendary vampire chicky? I can't see anything at all in that 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch scan... She'll be hot s**t in commander though, regardless as to whether or not she's actually hot.
Think about it... if the card is a proxy... and it's only the back side of the card. You aren't going to confuse that with the rest of your sideboard cards. And you can't "cheat" and throw in these proxies when you are sideboarding because you can't actually play the back side of the card because it has no mana cost.
The proxied backs of these cards function exactly like tokens in this sense. And would you not hide tokens under your sideboard (or in your deck box... whatever) if you wanted to keep that information away from your opponent. Before these flip cards came about for example, if you had 3/3 beast tokens... you don't want your opponent knowing you are playing green so you have to hide them somehow. Hide the proxies the same way.
MTR 4.9 - "If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard. "
You CAN conceivably play the double face cards, because "oops, I forgot to flip it" and reflip it in the middle of the game. Since they're stored with your sideboard, you also have a 19 card sideboard, which is illegal.
Why not? My tokens for each deck are in the box with the deck itself. If I'm unfortunately enough to have to run any of these transform cards, where else are the real cards going to go... am I gonna carry around a seperate deck box just for those?!?!
Tokens are not cards and can't be confused with them. These are actual legal magic cards for play, and cause an ambiguous sideboard.
MTR 4.9 - "If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard. "
You CAN conceivably play the double face cards, because "oops, I forgot to flip it" and reflip it in the middle of the game. Since they're stored with your sideboard, you also have a 19 card sideboard, which is illegal.
I believe that they will not be stored with your sideboard and you will have to set aside these cards revealed before the game to avoid cheating. It seems a bit unfair, but I can't imagine a better way to implement this.
Why would rg werewolves cast more than one werewolf in a turn?
The cards will only be played if BOTH sides have relevant abilities, so it doesn't matter how many spells your opponents cast.
I can agree with your third step.
From what we've seen so far, the human form are the standard for limited playables. A bear, a 2/2 for 3 that shoots fliers(Which really I wish was uncommon), and a 1/1 lord for 2(Actually a bit better than limited playable, but eh).
However the flipped side would be far above the curve. A 3/3 evasion for 2, a 4/4 with built in removal for 3, a 3/3 lord that spawns tokens for 2.
So the plan is: Dump your hand. Why? Because if you play your wolves one at a time they'll never transform to begin with anyways. So you want to get rid of every spell you can cast as soon as possible for as much benefit as can be gained by doing so. Then, the wolves will all trigger once you've finally dumped it all, and you can begin thrashing.
Yes, the human sides will be decent, but we want to stay on the wolf side as often as is possible.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I was fairly excited for this set, but after the mechanics article I'm extremely disappointed, transform is horrendous.
It is going to completely WRECK FNM draft, it's going to make it extremely awkward. Normally you'd fan out the cards in a pack to some degree but now you have to try to hide the backsides in case one is a double-sided card to avoid giving away info (I know they made it so there's no penalty for revealing it but seriously??)
What about actually selecting the card? You have to try putting it in your draft pile quickly to avoid people seeing it because now they will know what color your in and draft accordingly?
What if you first pick a transform card? (which is very plausible because several of the spoiled transform cards seem like they're strong in limited)
Now you have to ... hide it under a token or basic land since you don't yet have a pile of drafted cards yet? Any other drafter who was looking in your direction could easily see you put it there and there's no penalty for them doing so. "Ok he took a green card first pick I'll be sure to stay out of green since I'll get cut".
I wouldn't be surprised if some game stores decided to completely eschew hosting Innistrad block drafts.
I can easily see massive decreases in FNM draft turnout as many players will not want to deal with the double sided crap, or worry about revealing cards or people cheating with checklists etc.
Never mind the pain it's going to cause in constructed. Every time I face a player who uses a checklist card to use as his Garruk Relentless, I'm going to need to pretty much ask them to prove they have 4 copies so they're not cheating?
Even though I've obviously not played with any Innistrad cards, I'm calling it right now: Transform will be the worst mechanic in the history of Magic. I'm at a loss for words as to why they'd approve such a monstrosity...
I'm not ragequitting the game over it but I'm 95% sure it will the case.
Even though I've obviously not played with any Innistrad cards, I'm calling it right now: Transform will be the worst mechanic in the history of Magic. I'm at a loss for words as to why they'd approve such a monstrosity...
I'm not ragequitting the game over it but I'm 95% sure it will the case.
That title is already taken by Banding and Horsemanship.
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Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
MTR 4.9 - "If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard. "
Ok... so if you have 3/3 beast tokens or 1/1 soldier tokens that you plan to use because a card in your deck references tokens, obviously it's in your best interest to hide said tokens. However you hide those cards is the same way you hide the "night" side of the flip cards.
You CAN conceivably play the double face cards, because "oops, I forgot to flip it" and reflip it in the middle of the game. Since they're stored with your sideboard, you also have a 19 card sideboard, which is illegal.
First of all, remember what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making a proxy of JUST the night side of the card (the one with no mana cost). The day side doesn't exist because it's a proxy of just one side of the card. It acts just like a token would. If a judge came over and checked it out, show him there is no back to the card and you are only using it as a marker for when the card transforms.
Obviously you couldn't have REAL cards mixed in with your 15 card sideboard. You could sleeve up some tokens and hide them under your sideboard in the same way I imagine because there is an obvious way to differentiate the cards from your sideboard.
From what we've seen so far, the human form are the standard for limited playables. A bear, a 2/2 for 3 that shoots fliers(Which really I wish was uncommon), and a 1/1 lord for 2(Actually a bit better than limited playable, but eh).
However the flipped side would be far above the curve. A 3/3 evasion for 2, a 4/4 with built in removal for 3, a 3/3 lord that spawns tokens for 2.
So the plan is: Dump your hand. Why? Because if you play your wolves one at a time they'll never transform to begin with anyways. So you want to get rid of every spell you can cast as soon as possible for as much benefit as can be gained by doing so. Then, the wolves will all trigger once you've finally dumped it all, and you can begin thrashing.
Yes, the human sides will be decent, but we want to stay on the wolf side as often as is possible.
Good points. Wizards better not screw this up. I'm already getting confused, and I'm only a little bit more tired than usual.
I mean I just brought a set of the rg mana base, and a few post rotation staples, so this deck better be fmn playable at the very least. I've waited too long for this to fail. Screw vampires, werewolves are just awesome.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
I believe that they will not be stored with your sideboard and you will have to set aside these cards revealed before the game to avoid cheating. It seems a bit unfair, but I can't imagine a better way to implement this.
I don't get it.
You can sleeve up the real card, and that ends that issue right there because the real card is in your deck. That's all the proof you need. And then you either physically take the card out of the sleeve to flip it or use a proxy of the night side card. Again, it would be exactly as if you were using token. Imagine when the "night side" trigger happens, you just pull the proxy off from the side and put it on top of the real card and that would signify the transformation.
I imagine if you use the checklist card that it would work out the way you say and you would have to somehow prove you own the cards during the game. It's going to be interesting how they end up handling this for the few people that for some reason want to use the checklist card.
By worst I didn't mean lowest power level or worst for constructed playability.
I meant the most damaging to the game and cause of the most trouble.
Damage to the game? Erm, affinity then? how about storm?
To everyone who thinks transform will actually drastically change this game: Please, please reserve judgment until you've actually played with the mechanic a bit. Yes, it's probably going to be physically clunky, but its not like this mechanic is going to destroy the format or anything. It'll likely be a minor annoyance to a mechanic I think is otherwise pretty cool
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currently playing---
Legacy: B currently brewing... W
EDH: RRosheen Meanderer G
The foolish wish for that which they desire. The cunning wish for that which they require.
Transform isn't a bad mechanic it just seems to be poorly executed their is a huge difference between those two. For MTGO this mechanic will be perfectly fine and play exactly how it should. In real life it will be a little more clunky to play with but that doesn't make it bad. People keep freaking out about draft but I don't think it will be nearly as big a problem as people think I mean how hard is it to cover ur cards with your hard while u look through or maybe just give people divided areas to fan out their cards in while they draft making it easier to look at all ur cards and make sure your opponent doesnt see.
people talk about cheating but nothing more than normal and nothing a deck check couldn't solve in constructed play
I wonder how this is going to be received in a couple of weeks. I'm going to give it some time and I feel like it will grow on people. However, will this mechanic even be used outside of limited? It doesn't seem very competitive to me, so it won't even affect most people here.
so if it doesnt have a mana cost, its CMC is 0, right? like ancestral visions? so ratchet bomb at 0 destroys all werewolfs?
The reason that they didn't wanna do the Kamigawa flip cards again is because it leaves them with very little room for art or card text thus limiting what the cards can actually do and they have less of a clean look to them. Also cards like Garruk Relentless would be impossible to make as Kamigawa flips and other cards that transform back and forth would get very confusing especially when tapped
I agree, but don't auras overlap with equipment? also arent PW like a pemin's aura for players? Also love the epic quote.
i believe so
Think of it as removal moreso than Combat to do damage.
It's a good mechanic, and works as a form of removal for those decks that do not run colors with efficient removal in them. I can't say anything about Yugioh though, as I know absolutely nothing about that game.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
No, cmc is the same as the day side
Step One: Dump your hand
Step Two: Hope your opponent can't cast two spells in one turn.
Step Three: Win.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Why would rg werewolves cast more than one werewolf in a turn?
The cards will only be played if BOTH sides have relevant abilities, so it doesn't matter how many spells your opponents cast.
I can agree with your third step.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Sig and Avatar by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Shop!
The thing I'm noticing is that the "night" sides of these cards aren't always necessarily better, just different. There's the one where one side is a 2/2 flyer and the other side is a 5/5 beater.
Also, I know in constructed (and in limited somewhat) the average is that a player cast one spell a turn. So without some clever strategy these cards aren't going to be flipping back and forth. In general, if you are an aggro deck the cards will flip more often because they can play more cards a turn. For a control deck they sometimes go turns without playing stuff and the cards will flip the other way more often.
It might be interesting to see the control deck play against these cards because if they don't want them to flip they have to play something during their turn.
Fixed that for you.
But on to the actual mechanic, bah. I'm not a fan of a mechanic which forces me to constantly resleeve parts of my deck while I'm playing it. I mean I go through enough card sleeves as it is without that kind of added crap. Thanks wotc, you suck.
In other news I like fight, now I just hope they reprint Contested Cliffs so that I can do an awesome beast deck and fight fight fight!
Also, morbid seems ok - nothing fancy but intuitive and a decent mechanic to work with.
The spoiled curses card seems pretty weak, but I'm alright with it. Hopefully they print some decent stuff with that keyword to make me want to actually play with it.
Lastly, is there a better scan of the new legendary vampire chicky? I can't see anything at all in that 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch scan... She'll be hot s**t in commander though, regardless as to whether or not she's actually hot.
MTR 4.9 - "If the sideboard is not kept sufficiently separate from the deck during play, it becomes impossible to determine the legality of the deck. Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard. "
You CAN conceivably play the double face cards, because "oops, I forgot to flip it" and reflip it in the middle of the game. Since they're stored with your sideboard, you also have a 19 card sideboard, which is illegal.
Tokens are not cards and can't be confused with them. These are actual legal magic cards for play, and cause an ambiguous sideboard.
I believe that they will not be stored with your sideboard and you will have to set aside these cards revealed before the game to avoid cheating. It seems a bit unfair, but I can't imagine a better way to implement this.
From what we've seen so far, the human form are the standard for limited playables. A bear, a 2/2 for 3 that shoots fliers(Which really I wish was uncommon), and a 1/1 lord for 2(Actually a bit better than limited playable, but eh).
However the flipped side would be far above the curve. A 3/3 evasion for 2, a 4/4 with built in removal for 3, a 3/3 lord that spawns tokens for 2.
So the plan is: Dump your hand. Why? Because if you play your wolves one at a time they'll never transform to begin with anyways. So you want to get rid of every spell you can cast as soon as possible for as much benefit as can be gained by doing so. Then, the wolves will all trigger once you've finally dumped it all, and you can begin thrashing.
Yes, the human sides will be decent, but we want to stay on the wolf side as often as is possible.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
It is going to completely WRECK FNM draft, it's going to make it extremely awkward. Normally you'd fan out the cards in a pack to some degree but now you have to try to hide the backsides in case one is a double-sided card to avoid giving away info (I know they made it so there's no penalty for revealing it but seriously??)
What about actually selecting the card? You have to try putting it in your draft pile quickly to avoid people seeing it because now they will know what color your in and draft accordingly?
What if you first pick a transform card? (which is very plausible because several of the spoiled transform cards seem like they're strong in limited)
Now you have to ... hide it under a token or basic land since you don't yet have a pile of drafted cards yet? Any other drafter who was looking in your direction could easily see you put it there and there's no penalty for them doing so. "Ok he took a green card first pick I'll be sure to stay out of green since I'll get cut".
I wouldn't be surprised if some game stores decided to completely eschew hosting Innistrad block drafts.
I can easily see massive decreases in FNM draft turnout as many players will not want to deal with the double sided crap, or worry about revealing cards or people cheating with checklists etc.
Never mind the pain it's going to cause in constructed. Every time I face a player who uses a checklist card to use as his Garruk Relentless, I'm going to need to pretty much ask them to prove they have 4 copies so they're not cheating?
Even though I've obviously not played with any Innistrad cards, I'm calling it right now: Transform will be the worst mechanic in the history of Magic. I'm at a loss for words as to why they'd approve such a monstrosity...
I'm not ragequitting the game over it but I'm 95% sure it will the case.
That title is already taken by Banding and Horsemanship.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Ok... so if you have 3/3 beast tokens or 1/1 soldier tokens that you plan to use because a card in your deck references tokens, obviously it's in your best interest to hide said tokens. However you hide those cards is the same way you hide the "night" side of the flip cards.
First of all, remember what I'm talking about. I'm talking about making a proxy of JUST the night side of the card (the one with no mana cost). The day side doesn't exist because it's a proxy of just one side of the card. It acts just like a token would. If a judge came over and checked it out, show him there is no back to the card and you are only using it as a marker for when the card transforms.
Obviously you couldn't have REAL cards mixed in with your 15 card sideboard. You could sleeve up some tokens and hide them under your sideboard in the same way I imagine because there is an obvious way to differentiate the cards from your sideboard.
By worst I didn't mean lowest power level or worst for constructed playability.
I meant the most damaging to the game and cause of the most trouble.
Good points. Wizards better not screw this up. I'm already getting confused, and I'm only a little bit more tired than usual.
I mean I just brought a set of the rg mana base, and a few post rotation staples, so this deck better be fmn playable at the very least. I've waited too long for this to fail. Screw vampires, werewolves are just awesome.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I don't get it.
You can sleeve up the real card, and that ends that issue right there because the real card is in your deck. That's all the proof you need. And then you either physically take the card out of the sleeve to flip it or use a proxy of the night side card. Again, it would be exactly as if you were using token. Imagine when the "night side" trigger happens, you just pull the proxy off from the side and put it on top of the real card and that would signify the transformation.
I imagine if you use the checklist card that it would work out the way you say and you would have to somehow prove you own the cards during the game. It's going to be interesting how they end up handling this for the few people that for some reason want to use the checklist card.
Damage to the game? Erm, affinity then? how about storm?
To everyone who thinks transform will actually drastically change this game: Please, please reserve judgment until you've actually played with the mechanic a bit. Yes, it's probably going to be physically clunky, but its not like this mechanic is going to destroy the format or anything. It'll likely be a minor annoyance to a mechanic I think is otherwise pretty cool
Legacy: B currently brewing... W
EDH: RRosheen Meanderer G
people talk about cheating but nothing more than normal and nothing a deck check couldn't solve in constructed play
W/U Lavinia of the Tenth
G/W Selvala, Explorer Returned
B Mono-black random General
R/G Xenagos, God of Revels
U/B Wydwen the BIting Gale
For all of your Magic art needs, check out my tumblr The Art of Magic.
They're CMC 0 per Aaron Forsythe.
Aaron's tweet about it