Nonsense. Making your whole team immune to wrath is very strong. There are obviously things she dies to, such as tragic slip, oblivion ring, swords to plowshares, path to exile, unmake, final judgment, hallowed burial, etc. But beating wrath of god, day of judgment, go for the throat, rout, damnation, austere command, life's finale, decree of pain, etc. is pretty nice.
Oh noez, storyline talk.
Iona, (why did I spell that Ionia in my post >.<) was the kor(?)'s god/angel and was their sort of belief/representation of emrakul.
Avacyn, although not the soul of a plane, is certianly a very central figure to lore and belief in the plane, and is the core of the Avacynian church's belief system.
And also it states there that she's in actuality just an archangel (cut the she's a debatable figure that I mentioned :P) that is still somewhere around Zendikar but cannot do zilch against the ACTUAL Eldrazi because her powers are useless against them.
Avacyn, although not the soul of a plane, is certianly a very central figure to lore and belief in the plane, and is the core of the Avacynian church's belief system.
Oh, so you're taking the more proverbial take on the "Soul of the Plane"?
She should have been 9 for a 9/9 and also given hexproof. Now that --- is what I call a protector.
IMO Giving her hexproof would actually go against her flavor (and nowadays flavor is going to be more embedded in the cards with the "hiatus" of the active Storyline/Continuity) because as she is a protector, Griselbrand was able to show that she can be vulnerable.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
I almost think I'd have liked her a little more if she was a 6/6 flying vigilance trample rampage 2 everything you control is indestructible for the same cost. At least to me it shows that she's not there just to defend you but to actively seek out and destroy and a simple 1/1 flying token won't be enough to stop her. The lower power/toughness on defense would perhaps give people attacking you a better chance as well since you'd have such an advantage with the indestructibility.
Very dull angel. Hoping that Grisely will be a bit more interesting and a bit cheaper to cast.
Seeing as Grislebrand is THE demon on the plane and hes the one that trapped avacyn in the helvault before he himself was exiled away, im just going to go out on a hunch here and say that hes just about equal power to avacyn. An 8/8 demon for 5BBB is most likely what he'll be at, maybe a little less stronger but cant wait either way to see this behemoth of a demon
Seeing as Grislebrand is THE demon on the plane and hes the one that trapped avacyn in the helvault before he himself was exiled away, im just going to go out on a hunch here and say that hes just about equal power to avacyn. An 8/8 demon for 5BBB is most likely what he'll be at, maybe a little less stronger but cant wait either way to see this behemoth of a demon
they had him already,
he was the demon sealed away in the sword for the last set no?
Wow, first Helvault and now even Avacyn is rubbish.
They probably didn't want to give Solar Flare and Reanimator decks any real ammunition. This card isn't even close to being as good as Iona. There's probably more ways to remove a creature of that size from the game as opposed to destroying.
Vapor Snag, O-Ring, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Liliana, Dungeon Geists, Traitorous Blood, Metamorph, Phantasmal Image, etc., etc.
She could of at least been 8/8 Shroud and I would have been happy with the new Inkwell Leviathan. But what the hell do you do with this?
he was the demon sealed away in the sword for the last set no?
Withengar is the 13/13 demon from the dagger. Grislebrand is the demon that trapped Avacyn in the Helvault.
As for hexproof and indestructible, I doubt we'll ever see them together without some catch anymore than first strike + deathtouch with no catch at common/uncommon. Rediculously powerful is cool, but individual cards should have some hole in their defenses. Now, something high costed that gives other creatures/permanents you control hexproof and indestructible would be cool or something like Angelic Overseer.
I don't see why Avacyn's getting so much crap. We have no idea what the rest of the set will bring, but chances are, it'll not only balance her ability, but include cards that work in with her ability . It's cool that we get to see her in advance, but I'm waiting for the rest of the spoilers to judge.
I have neither the skill to correctly and accurately analyze this set in the context of current and future formats after 12 hours of exposure, nor the hubris to delude myself into believing that I do.
I enjoy spoiler season, it's like Christmas every few months.
Honestly people, not every card is going to be standard playable, there are other formats. I was a standard player and moved to just EDH because I got tired of cutthroat games (well that and I work at a card shop where my days off are EDH tournaments :tongue:).
Avacyn was probably designed flavorfully, so it makes sense that she is expensive but gives everything you control indestructible. I'm going to pick one up on the release for Mayael EDH, because auto-indestructible > WW: Target indestructible.
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Mayael, the Anima: Six levels of fat
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Karn, Silver Golem: Welcome to the machine
Mistform Ultimus: and the quest for more blue lords!
Thada Adel: and the Theivius Merfolkus
I don't see why Avacyn's getting so much crap. We have no idea what the rest of the set will bring, but chances are, it'll not only balance her ability, but include cards that work in with her ability . It's cool that we get to see her in advance, but I'm waiting for the rest of the spoilers to judge.
No, that's called bad design. The mythics are supposed to show the general theme of the set, not use it as a crutch.
In competitive formats, she is really lacking. She is good, but it's too much work to make her ability relevant, because with stuff like Liliana and BSZ, being indestructible doesn't mean much. Her mana cost makes her unplayable in most decks, both due to the cost and the color requirements. If she had just one less W, she would have worked with HS, like Elesh and the Titans.
The only format where she really shines is casual, because you have the added bonus of being able to recast her, and fun cards like Worldslayer.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
It's not exactly bad design. It could easily hold $10 for years to come on casual value, like Darksteel Forge. Not every card has to be a tournament staple. Mythic just means in the best case senario, it's completely rediculous and makes a great story.
No, that's called bad design. The mythics are supposed to show the general theme of the set, not use it as a crutch.
In competitive formats, she is really lacking. She is good, but it's too much work to make her ability relevant, because with stuff like Liliana and BSZ, being indestructible doesn't mean much. Her mana cost makes her unplayable in most decks, both due to the cost and the color requirements. If she had just one less W, she would have worked with HS, like Elesh and the Titans.
The only format where she really shines is casual, because you have the added bonus of being able to recast her, and fun cards like Worldslayer.
I never fail to be amazed at the ability of people to read the future and rate cards in competitive formats that don't exist yet. Really? BSZ for 8? I've never even seen a game where that COULD have happened.
The reason Avacyn isn't playable in Standard at this point is that she doesn't do anything relevant on ETB, unlike pretty much every 6+ CMC card currently seeing competitive play (the big exceptions being Wurmcoil Engine and Consecrated Sphinx for what should be obvious reasons). It's possible she could see play in post-Scars standard (I don't think it's likely unless Delver and Gravecrawler both get banned, but it's possible).
I never fail to be amazed at the ability of people to read the future and rate cards in competitive formats that don't exist yet. Really? BSZ for 8? I've never even seen a game where that COULD have happened.
I've seen the possibility, and I have seen BSZ for 7 (norn and everything else DIE!)
The reason Avacyn isn't playable in Standard at this point is that she doesn't do anything relevant on ETB, unlike pretty much every 6+ CMC card currently seeing competitive play (the big exceptions being Wurmcoil Engine and Consecrated Sphinx for what should be obvious reasons). It's possible she could see play in post-Scars standard (I don't think it's likely unless Delver and Gravecrawler both get banned, but it's possible).
except, she does have a relevent etb ability, everything is indestructible, and the only win-cons that aren't etb triggerers are either very powerful (sphinx) or resilient to (non-exiling) removal...much like her.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
You don't have to BSZ for 8 to deal with Avacyn. Thats why BSZ is so so powerful. She costs 8, so even in a ramp deck, good luck dropping her by turn 4 or 5 on a good day. If they respond with BSZ for 4, congrats on your Serra Angel. A 4/4 flyer is nothing to sniff at, but it gives them a large window to solve the problem.
Avacyn is a very good finisher for a control deck because she protects herself. She is, however, also very easy to sideboard against, so if she sees play, it'll be marginal.
In older formats, she's hilarious when paired up with Serenity (Sorry Affinity, Enchantress, and MUD; you're getting nuked every turn for the rest of the game) but it's not clear to me that she has a role that isn't better filled by something else.
because with stuff like Liliana and BSZ, being indestructible doesn't mean much.
Black Sun Zenith? It would take 10 mana to kill her with that, and even if you kill the weenies, you've still got a 5/5+ flying indestructible vigilance. Liliana can kill her, certainly, but I feel like the situations where Avacyn excels would be the ones where Liliana's second ability will become irrelevant, and her Ultimate would probably never happen. Nevermind the fact that Avacyn can kill most Planeswalkers by herself. She's not the best creature ever, but "bad" is hardly what I'd call her. Especially since cheating out things like Elesh Norn (a 7 cost creature) into play isn't something incredibly uncommon.
except, she does have a relevent etb ability, everything is indestructible, and the only win-cons that aren't etb triggerers are either very powerful (sphinx) or resilient to (non-exiling) removal...much like her.
True, indestructibility is somewhat relevant. However, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed basically saves your creatures from board wipes for 2 less cmc (along with being an extra combo piece that lets creatures survive Elesh Norn), and if all you want is to save creatures from board wipes, Dauntless Escort basically does it for only 3 mana. In short, Melira Pod, one of the most likely decks to use Avacyn in Modern, has cheaper ways to basically get Avacyn's effect. (Hot diggity, though, I did not predict Mikaeus the Undead would be such a great fit in Melira Pod.)
I mean, flavourfully i love it. I know its going to be a card thats going to probally be paralled with Griselbrand beautifully.
But as someone who plays exclusively Commander on MTGO, (still looking for people to play Wheel with), i already hate her. Shes going to end up like Jhoria, Iona and Ghave, where people quit upon seeing her as commander.
She makes me sad =(
I hope, that Griselbrand has a sacrifice theme to balance her indestructibility =)
I don't think she'll be as bad as all that. The Worst she can manage is dropping Armageddon/Ravages of War/Soulscour/Catastrophe after coming down. And given that she costs 8 in the worst ramp color, that's probably turn 7-10. And there are a lot of outs to her - Bounce, Clone effects, Edicts, Exile, Tuck, Control Magic effects, and on and on. Most of these things are pretty common in EDH as well.
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Echoing a comment on this card's thread on the New Card Discussion board, it would be funny if within Avacyn Restored a card ends up having synergy with her; may it be a direct effect ala Angel's Herald, a human/angel/enchantment creature that lowers her casting cost.
Can't wait for more reveals to kick in.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Nonsense. Making your whole team immune to wrath is very strong. There are obviously things she dies to, such as tragic slip, oblivion ring, swords to plowshares, path to exile, unmake, final judgment, hallowed burial, etc. But beating wrath of god, day of judgment, go for the throat, rout, damnation, austere command, life's finale, decree of pain, etc. is pretty nice.
It's a fun, well flavored card. That's really I was looking for. I'd say they embodied the soul of Innistrad's Humans very well.
Reading this article in Daily MTG (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/86) the way the kor associated Iona to the Emeria Goddess legend is more of an underling and not a God in her own right.
And also it states there that she's in actuality just an archangel (cut the she's a debatable figure that I mentioned :P) that is still somewhere around Zendikar but cannot do zilch against the ACTUAL Eldrazi because her powers are useless against them.
Oh, so you're taking the more proverbial take on the "Soul of the Plane"?
IMO Giving her hexproof would actually go against her flavor (and nowadays flavor is going to be more embedded in the cards with the "hiatus" of the active Storyline/Continuity) because as she is a protector, Griselbrand was able to show that she can be vulnerable.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Yes.
Seeing as Grislebrand is THE demon on the plane and hes the one that trapped avacyn in the helvault before he himself was exiled away, im just going to go out on a hunch here and say that hes just about equal power to avacyn. An 8/8 demon for 5BBB is most likely what he'll be at, maybe a little less stronger but cant wait either way to see this behemoth of a demon
And it does ^^> damn.
they had him already,
he was the demon sealed away in the sword for the last set no?
They probably didn't want to give Solar Flare and Reanimator decks any real ammunition. This card isn't even close to being as good as Iona. There's probably more ways to remove a creature of that size from the game as opposed to destroying.
Vapor Snag, O-Ring, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Liliana, Dungeon Geists, Traitorous Blood, Metamorph, Phantasmal Image, etc., etc.
She could of at least been 8/8 Shroud and I would have been happy with the new Inkwell Leviathan. But what the hell do you do with this?
Withengar is the 13/13 demon from the dagger. Grislebrand is the demon that trapped Avacyn in the Helvault.
As for hexproof and indestructible, I doubt we'll ever see them together without some catch anymore than first strike + deathtouch with no catch at common/uncommon. Rediculously powerful is cool, but individual cards should have some hole in their defenses. Now, something high costed that gives other creatures/permanents you control hexproof and indestructible would be cool or something like Angelic Overseer.
What the hell do you do with Avacyn, Angel of Trolling?
You give her a WORLDSLAYER!
1) 0 Chrome Mox
2) 0 Mana Crypt
3) 1 Sol Ring
4) 1 Sensei's Divining Top3) 1 Sol Ring
4) 1 Sensei's Divining Top
5) 2 Lightning Greaves
6) 2 Scroll Rack
7) 3 Darksteel Ingot
8) 3 Chromatic Lantern
9) 3 Oblivion Stone
10) 6 Duplicant
Bonus: Hall of the Bandit Lord
Everyone should learn from this
Honestly people, not every card is going to be standard playable, there are other formats. I was a standard player and moved to just EDH because I got tired of cutthroat games (well that and I work at a card shop where my days off are EDH tournaments :tongue:).
Avacyn was probably designed flavorfully, so it makes sense that she is expensive but gives everything you control indestructible. I'm going to pick one up on the release for Mayael EDH, because auto-indestructible > WW: Target indestructible.
Mayael, the Anima: Six levels of fat
Norin the Wary: Spreading the gospel and trolliness of Gaka
Child of Alara: Vast amounts of land and one angry baby!
Karn, Silver Golem: Welcome to the machine
Mistform Ultimus: and the quest for more blue lords!
Thada Adel: and the Theivius Merfolkus
No, that's called bad design. The mythics are supposed to show the general theme of the set, not use it as a crutch.
In competitive formats, she is really lacking. She is good, but it's too much work to make her ability relevant, because with stuff like Liliana and BSZ, being indestructible doesn't mean much. Her mana cost makes her unplayable in most decks, both due to the cost and the color requirements. If she had just one less W, she would have worked with HS, like Elesh and the Titans.
The only format where she really shines is casual, because you have the added bonus of being able to recast her, and fun cards like Worldslayer.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I never fail to be amazed at the ability of people to read the future and rate cards in competitive formats that don't exist yet. Really? BSZ for 8? I've never even seen a game where that COULD have happened.
The reason Avacyn isn't playable in Standard at this point is that she doesn't do anything relevant on ETB, unlike pretty much every 6+ CMC card currently seeing competitive play (the big exceptions being Wurmcoil Engine and Consecrated Sphinx for what should be obvious reasons). It's possible she could see play in post-Scars standard (I don't think it's likely unless Delver and Gravecrawler both get banned, but it's possible).
Standard: W/R Aggro
Flavorfully that seems wrong.
And then I remember birds with swords.
I've seen the possibility, and I have seen BSZ for 7 (norn and everything else DIE!)
except, she does have a relevent etb ability, everything is indestructible, and the only win-cons that aren't etb triggerers are either very powerful (sphinx) or resilient to (non-exiling) removal...much like her.
Avacyn is a very good finisher for a control deck because she protects herself. She is, however, also very easy to sideboard against, so if she sees play, it'll be marginal.
In older formats, she's hilarious when paired up with Serenity (Sorry Affinity, Enchantress, and MUD; you're getting nuked every turn for the rest of the game) but it's not clear to me that she has a role that isn't better filled by something else.
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Black Sun Zenith? It would take 10 mana to kill her with that, and even if you kill the weenies, you've still got a 5/5+ flying indestructible vigilance. Liliana can kill her, certainly, but I feel like the situations where Avacyn excels would be the ones where Liliana's second ability will become irrelevant, and her Ultimate would probably never happen. Nevermind the fact that Avacyn can kill most Planeswalkers by herself. She's not the best creature ever, but "bad" is hardly what I'd call her. Especially since cheating out things like Elesh Norn (a 7 cost creature) into play isn't something incredibly uncommon.
True, indestructibility is somewhat relevant. However, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed basically saves your creatures from board wipes for 2 less cmc (along with being an extra combo piece that lets creatures survive Elesh Norn), and if all you want is to save creatures from board wipes, Dauntless Escort basically does it for only 3 mana. In short, Melira Pod, one of the most likely decks to use Avacyn in Modern, has cheaper ways to basically get Avacyn's effect. (Hot diggity, though, I did not predict Mikaeus the Undead would be such a great fit in Melira Pod.)
I don't think she'll be as bad as all that. The Worst she can manage is dropping Armageddon/Ravages of War/Soulscour/Catastrophe after coming down. And given that she costs 8 in the worst ramp color, that's probably turn 7-10. And there are a lot of outs to her - Bounce, Clone effects, Edicts, Exile, Tuck, Control Magic effects, and on and on. Most of these things are pretty common in EDH as well.
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