"Creature cards you own that aren't on the battlefield, creature spells you control, and creatures you control are the chosen type." in Conspiracy
It's different from "Each creature you control is the chosen type in addition to its other types." in Xenograph
Basically, Xenograph give them an additional creature type (only on the battlefield, after an ETB could trigger) but Conspiracy removes all other creature type and replace them with the chosen type.
"Creature cards you own that aren't on the battlefield, creature spells you control, and creatures you control are the chosen type." in Conspiracy
It's different from "Each creature you control is the chosen type in addition to its other types." in Xenograph
Basically, Xenograph give them an additional creature type (only on the battlefield, after an ETB could trigger) but Conspiracy removes all other creature type and replace them with the chosen type.
Do note that it's old wording, that might have something to do with it - but nonetheless, this is something to be looked up on
I'm not contesting that situation. I'm talking about the hypothetical situation where your first 7 cards counted as you drawing the card to trigger a miracle.
I am sorry about the confusion, I wasn't contesting you at all, I merely replied so those confused by the card would have an example of a first turn miracle play, I have no issue with your comment at all, I merely quoted it to keep with the continuity of the thread.
Thanks,
Andrew
P.s. Re other thread: according to crystal keep rules summary conspiracy does work with the angel:
Conspiracy
This replaces all creature types on those cards for as long as it is in play. [MM FAQ 1999/09/22]
he ce the angel will go infinite provided that you choose a nonagel type with conspiracy and the all is a legal target hence no pro-white etc.
Makes a nice blinker for infinite life gain in edh etc.
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I'm pretty sure that's not the case. If you name "Salamander," angels that you cast won't lose their angel type, just gain the salamander type; so they'll still be angels.
That's what Xenograft does, iirc Conspiracy overwrites previous types. Compare the text and it definitely sounds that way at least. I'm not 100% confident but I'm pretty sure..
I am sorry about the confusion, I wasn't contesting you at all, I merely replied so those confused by the card would have an example of a first turn miracle play, I have no issue with your comment at all, I merely quoted it to keep with the continuity of the thread.
Do note that it's old wording, that might have something to do with it - but nonetheless, this is something to be looked up on
It's not old writing, the timeshifted cards have actualized rules text, so they aren't really the same card with different expansion symbol.
For example, Uncle Istvan have a different text from its The Dark version, when the original is a "Summon uncle Istvan" and says "All damage done to Uncle Istvan by creatures is reduced to 0"; when the timeshifted version is a Creature - Human" and says "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to Uncle Istvan by creatures."
So you can't say the Conspiracy says so only because its old.
It's not old writing, the timeshifted cards have actualized rules text, so they aren't really the same card with different expansion symbol.
For example, Uncle Istvan have a different text from its The Dark version, when the original is a "Summon uncle Istvan" and says "All damage done to Uncle Istvan by creatures is reduced to 0"; when the timeshifted version is a Creature - Human" and says "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to Uncle Istvan by creatures."
So you can't say the Conspiracy says so only because its old.
I checked it up a little and it seems to be in favor of Conspiracy removing every other existing creature type from the creatures
It says "It does not replace any use of creature types in card text." So no, it does not remove the other creature types, it just adds another one.
Edit: Never mind, it seems I can't make the difference between creature type and card text. Conspiracy does indeed replace all other creature types, it just doesn't care about creature type references in the abilities or effects of the card text.
Ego Erasure does, unless there's a layering issue that I'm ignoring. It seems like a static effect should continuously apply to new objects entering the battlefield, and it's really odd that they didn't put that ruling on Gatherer.
If you draw multiple cards maybe you should reveal the Miracle card to assure it was the first draw. And it's an instant, so you could cast it in an opponent's turn.
regarding thunderous wrath: what happens if you draw more than one card? like for example a desperate ravings on your opponent's turn?
The comprehensive rules already say that drawing more than one card at a time, such as with desperate ravings, is actually drawing one card multiple times, so it would literally have to be the top card of your library. Also, you would have to play it in response to the draw.
120.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.
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I just ordered the Buy-a-Box Card for Return to Ravnica. Its called Supreme Verdict.
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It's a Divine Verdict with tomatoes and sour cream. mmm.
Miracle cards could be a great way to give a lot of different decks both an explosive start AND a solid late game. Not to mention great potential top decks during the mid game.
Thing is, from what we've seen, miracle cards are somewhat bomb-ish, the kind of cards you wouldn't mind top decking on turn 10 or later. However, they also have potential to be played on turns 1-3 with ease.
Furthermore, in the specific case of Thunderous Wrath, it puts one more reasonably usable and possibly 1 mana costed 5 damage spell in the hands of RDW. Keeping in mind that RDW already has multiple ways to copy spells, goblin grenade, and Brimstone volley.
Question: in the case of Desperate Ravings, can you even use the miracle cost on a card drawn with it? The Miracle mechanic states that you can cast the card for it's miracle cost when you draw it. So with Desperate Ravings, would you be able to cast the card before desperate ravings resolves, would it not matter so long as you reveal the card to show you drew it first, or would you be unable to play it for it's miracle cost because you'd have had to go past drawing it and on to drawing a second card and then discarding?
Miracle is going to create a lot of hard feelings for people who take shortcuts.
I will refuse to let my opponent play a miracle card 100% of the time if they draw multiple cards in one go.
Sadly, that's exactly how it's going to have to be. People will simply have to follow the rules of Magic more closely, and take less shortcuts. It was said at PAX that there will be an FAQ available tomorrow which will probably answer a lot of our questions about.
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Quote from MisterMind »
I just ordered the Buy-a-Box Card for Return to Ravnica. Its called Supreme Verdict.
Quote from Kryptnyt »
It's a Divine Verdict with tomatoes and sour cream. mmm.
I like the angels, the restoration angel seems very solid. I like blink effects, and this one has a very reasonable mana cost, body.
I am not all that happy with the miracle mechanic because the way how to properly play it out is running blue with zillions of cantrips to make it playable. I cant really imagine how would a burn player want to run a 6cc spell while the chance of miracling it is pretty slim. Obviously, no other colour than blue can make it work properly. Thoughts?
It's a new mechanic, so there will only be so many cards in each color with the mechanic. Therefore, one of two things will happen.
1. There won't be enough soulbound creatures in the set to build a deck around and the mechanic itself is going to turn into another allies, where there just weren't enough creatures to make a really good allied deck in standard.
2. They'll load up on soulbound creatures which will essentially alienate the other two sets in this block and standard will turn into the soulbound showdown. How many standard staples of current standard will still be played? My guess is, many cards will be done away with the make room for the soulbound mechanic.
Finding just the right balance, based on past performance when they've done things like this (again, I direct you to allies) is not going to be easy and I seriously doubt they'll do it.
Now, if soulbound continues beyond Avacyn (doubtful) then maybe in the future it could be a solid mechanic for standard and even eternal or non rotating formats like Modern and Legacy.
But right now, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one.
Sadly, that's exactly how it's going to have to be. People will simply have to follow the rules of Magic more closely, and take less shortcuts. It was said at PAX that there will be an FAQ available tomorrow which will probably answer a lot of our questions about.
It's a new mechanic, so there will only be so many cards in each color with the mechanic. Therefore, one of two things will happen.
1. There won't be enough soulbound creatures in the set to build a deck around and the mechanic itself is going to turn into another allies, where there just weren't enough creatures to make a really good allied deck in standard.
2. They'll load up on soulbound creatures which will essentially alienate the other two sets in this block and standard will turn into the soulbound showdown. How many standard staples of current standard will still be played? My guess is, many cards will be done away with the make room for the soulbound mechanic.
Finding just the right balance, based on past performance when they've done things like this (again, I direct you to allies) is not going to be easy and I seriously doubt they'll do it.
Now, if soulbound continues beyond Avacyn (doubtful) then maybe in the future it could be a solid mechanic for standard and even eternal or non rotating formats like Modern and Legacy.
But right now, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one.
Soulbound has the advantage that only one of the creatures needs to have the ability though.
It's a new mechanic, so there will only be so many cards in each color with the mechanic. Therefore, one of two things will happen.
1. There won't be enough soulbound creatures in the set to build a deck around and the mechanic itself is going to turn into another allies, where there just weren't enough creatures to make a really good allied deck in standard.
2. They'll load up on soulbound creatures which will essentially alienate the other two sets in this block and standard will turn into the soulbound showdown. How many standard staples of current standard will still be played? My guess is, many cards will be done away with the make room for the soulbound mechanic.
Finding just the right balance, based on past performance when they've done things like this (again, I direct you to allies) is not going to be easy and I seriously doubt they'll do it.
Now, if soulbound continues beyond Avacyn (doubtful) then maybe in the future it could be a solid mechanic for standard and even eternal or non rotating formats like Modern and Legacy.
But right now, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one.
Well, not every mechanic is a build-around mechanic. Honestly, having a 'soulbound' deck would probably be counterproductive, as creatures with soulbound can't pair together. A soulbound creature will just work with whatever deck it'd naturally fit in--the paladin would just work in some white weenie deck.
Edit: I could be wrong on the 'creatures with soulbound can't pair together' part, the card doesn't state it at all. though for some reason, I remember reading that...regardless, it doesn't change my point much.
Well, not every mechanic is a build-around mechanic. Honestly, having a 'soulbound' deck would probably be counterproductive, as creatures with soulbound can't pair together. A soulbound creature will just work with whatever deck it'd naturally fit in--the paladin would just work in some white weenie deck.
Well, not every mechanic is a build-around mechanic. Honestly, having a 'soulbound' deck would probably be counterproductive, as creatures with soulbound can't pair together. A soulbound creature will just work with whatever deck it'd naturally fit in--the paladin would just work in some white weenie deck.
Edit: I could be wrong on the 'creatures with soulbound can't pair together' part, the card doesn't state it at all. though for some reason, I remember reading that...regardless, it doesn't change my point much.
I think he meant that you need a creature on the battlefield to start with if you want soulbound to be effective, thus they wouldn't be that useful all by themselves.
Not that there's a problem in there, with the amount of good 1-drops we have nowadays.
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Well, not every mechanic is a build-around mechanic. Honestly, having a 'soulbound' deck would probably be counterproductive, as creatures with soulbound can't pair together. A soulbound creature will just work with whatever deck it'd naturally fit in--the paladin would just work in some white weenie deck.
Edit: I could be wrong on the 'creatures with soulbound can't pair together' part, the card doesn't state it at all. though for some reason, I remember reading that...regardless, it doesn't change my point much.
Actually, soulbound has a may option, so you don't have to pair it with something when a creature comes down, and pairing a soulbound creature with another soulbound creature that comes down later actually gives you insane value. As both creatures would get the buffs that each gives. Imagine some creature gives a soulbound of +1/+1, pairing with the paladin that gives doublestrike. Both would get +1/+1 and double strike.
Edit: I realize you mean that soulbound creatures just go well in the decks that already want them. I'm simply saying that a ton of value can be gained by having two soulbound creatures pair together.
It's different from "Each creature you control is the chosen type in addition to its other types." in Xenograph
Basically, Xenograph give them an additional creature type (only on the battlefield, after an ETB could trigger) but Conspiracy removes all other creature type and replace them with the chosen type.
Do note that it's old wording, that might have something to do with it - but nonetheless, this is something to be looked up on
I am sorry about the confusion, I wasn't contesting you at all, I merely replied so those confused by the card would have an example of a first turn miracle play, I have no issue with your comment at all, I merely quoted it to keep with the continuity of the thread.
Thanks,
Andrew
P.s. Re other thread: according to crystal keep rules summary conspiracy does work with the angel:
Conspiracy
This replaces all creature types on those cards for as long as it is in play. [MM FAQ 1999/09/22]
he ce the angel will go infinite provided that you choose a nonagel type with conspiracy and the all is a legal target hence no pro-white etc.
Makes a nice blinker for infinite life gain in edh etc.
"I feel like I haven't done my job unless somebody says, 'How the hell is that supposed to work?'" - Mark Rosewater
Collecting Islands need:
Unhinged & Unglued
Arena: Donato Giancola, Tony Szczudlo, Anson Maddocks, John Avon (ravnica)
European Land Program: Ben Thompsom, Eric Peterson, Ben Thompson
Fifth Edition J. W. Frost Islands foil
Location: Bangkok
Maybe, maybe not. Not all madness cards were instants and that worked out fine.
That's what Xenograft does, iirc Conspiracy overwrites previous types. Compare the text and it definitely sounds that way at least. I'm not 100% confident but I'm pretty sure..
It's not old writing, the timeshifted cards have actualized rules text, so they aren't really the same card with different expansion symbol.
For example, Uncle Istvan have a different text from its The Dark version, when the original is a "Summon uncle Istvan" and says "All damage done to Uncle Istvan by creatures is reduced to 0"; when the timeshifted version is a Creature - Human" and says "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to Uncle Istvan by creatures."
So you can't say the Conspiracy says so only because its old.
I checked it up a little and it seems to be in favor of Conspiracy removing every other existing creature type from the creatures
http://magiccards.info/query?q=conspiracy&v=card&s=cname
It says "It does not replace any use of creature types in card text." So no, it does not remove the other creature types, it just adds another one.
Edit: Never mind, it seems I can't make the difference between creature type and card text. Conspiracy does indeed replace all other creature types, it just doesn't care about creature type references in the abilities or effects of the card text.
Ego Erasure does, unless there's a layering issue that I'm ignoring. It seems like a static effect should continuously apply to new objects entering the battlefield, and it's really odd that they didn't put that ruling on Gatherer.
The comprehensive rules already say that drawing more than one card at a time, such as with desperate ravings, is actually drawing one card multiple times, so it would literally have to be the top card of your library. Also, you would have to play it in response to the draw.
120.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.
I will refuse to let my opponent play a miracle card 100% of the time if they draw multiple cards in one go.
Thing is, from what we've seen, miracle cards are somewhat bomb-ish, the kind of cards you wouldn't mind top decking on turn 10 or later. However, they also have potential to be played on turns 1-3 with ease.
Furthermore, in the specific case of Thunderous Wrath, it puts one more reasonably usable and possibly 1 mana costed 5 damage spell in the hands of RDW. Keeping in mind that RDW already has multiple ways to copy spells, goblin grenade, and Brimstone volley.
Question: in the case of Desperate Ravings, can you even use the miracle cost on a card drawn with it? The Miracle mechanic states that you can cast the card for it's miracle cost when you draw it. So with Desperate Ravings, would you be able to cast the card before desperate ravings resolves, would it not matter so long as you reveal the card to show you drew it first, or would you be unable to play it for it's miracle cost because you'd have had to go past drawing it and on to drawing a second card and then discarding?
Sadly, that's exactly how it's going to have to be. People will simply have to follow the rules of Magic more closely, and take less shortcuts. It was said at PAX that there will be an FAQ available tomorrow which will probably answer a lot of our questions about.
I am not all that happy with the miracle mechanic because the way how to properly play it out is running blue with zillions of cantrips to make it playable. I cant really imagine how would a burn player want to run a 6cc spell while the chance of miracling it is pretty slim. Obviously, no other colour than blue can make it work properly. Thoughts?
It's a new mechanic, so there will only be so many cards in each color with the mechanic. Therefore, one of two things will happen.
1. There won't be enough soulbound creatures in the set to build a deck around and the mechanic itself is going to turn into another allies, where there just weren't enough creatures to make a really good allied deck in standard.
2. They'll load up on soulbound creatures which will essentially alienate the other two sets in this block and standard will turn into the soulbound showdown. How many standard staples of current standard will still be played? My guess is, many cards will be done away with the make room for the soulbound mechanic.
Finding just the right balance, based on past performance when they've done things like this (again, I direct you to allies) is not going to be easy and I seriously doubt they'll do it.
Now, if soulbound continues beyond Avacyn (doubtful) then maybe in the future it could be a solid mechanic for standard and even eternal or non rotating formats like Modern and Legacy.
But right now, I'm not getting my hopes up for this one.
Can't wait to read that FAQ.
Soulbound has the advantage that only one of the creatures needs to have the ability though.
Well, not every mechanic is a build-around mechanic. Honestly, having a 'soulbound' deck would probably be counterproductive, as creatures with soulbound can't pair together. A soulbound creature will just work with whatever deck it'd naturally fit in--the paladin would just work in some white weenie deck.
Edit: I could be wrong on the 'creatures with soulbound can't pair together' part, the card doesn't state it at all. though for some reason, I remember reading that...regardless, it doesn't change my point much.
Says who?
Why can they pair together?
I think he meant that you need a creature on the battlefield to start with if you want soulbound to be effective, thus they wouldn't be that useful all by themselves.
Not that there's a problem in there, with the amount of good 1-drops we have nowadays.
Pauper: UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck
Actually, soulbound has a may option, so you don't have to pair it with something when a creature comes down, and pairing a soulbound creature with another soulbound creature that comes down later actually gives you insane value. As both creatures would get the buffs that each gives. Imagine some creature gives a soulbound of +1/+1, pairing with the paladin that gives doublestrike. Both would get +1/+1 and double strike.
Edit: I realize you mean that soulbound creatures just go well in the decks that already want them. I'm simply saying that a ton of value can be gained by having two soulbound creatures pair together.