Bets on how long it will take Temporal Mastery to be banned in Legacy?
Also this probably pretty much confirms that ponder won't be in M13. Standard is going to be completely degenerate for a few months, holy crap.
edit:
Delver isn't exactly looking for 7 mana spells. Without a brainstorm effect it's too random. If you draw more than 1 before your third turn you basically lose. Just because it's blue doesn't mean you cram it in delver.
LOL, yeah, because Delver doesn't have ponder and lots of draw. U/R delver is even crazier with Faithless Looting and noxious revival. Having a potential 4 extra turns in a deck that can manipulate it's library even a little is insane. I guarantee the opportunity to have an extra turn will offset the risk of drawing 2 or more before turn 3, which isn't all that likely and can be dealt with anyway. You are nuts if you think Delver won't be playing this card all day. Drawing one of these turn 3 or after is basically an "I win" button for a deck as fast as Delver.
LOL, yeah, because Delver doesn't have ponder and lots of draw. U/R delver is even crazier with Faithless Looting and noxious revival. Having a potential 4 extra turns in a deck that can manipulate it's library even a little is insane. I guarantee the opportunity to have an extra turn will offset the risk of drawing 2 or more before turn 3, which isn't all that likely and can be dealt with anyway. You are nuts if you think Delver won't be playing this card all day. Drawing one of these turn 3 or after is basically an "I win" button for a deck as fast as Delver.
I'm sorry, but you want to play 4 of these in Delver? If you take a hand with one of these in it, congratulations, you just mulliganed. And ponder isn't the library manipulation that this card wants---this card wants Brainstorm. 2 is even suspect, as the variance is just SO HIGH. If you see this card in your first 9 cards, then congrats, it's wasted. Having lots of draw could even hurt it, because if you draw it off of a Gitaxian Probe or something, then it's wasted again. The tempo gain from this is huge in magical christmas land, sure, but then there are other games when you'd just lose because you essentially mulliganed and lost because you had a dead card.
It is true that Mastery is essentially a mulligan in your opening hand, but Faithless Looting was recently printed. I don't think it is unreasonable to predict that people will be taking extra turns with their Delver decks in the coming Standard format. Between Ponder, Looting, Noxious Revival, Desperate Ravings, and Thought Scour it is not unreasonable to put a couple copies into a Delver deck and reasonably expect to cast them. And the payoff is just SO high.
Imagine holding counter magic up with Noxious Revival in hand and EOT Thought Scouring yourself, hitting.a Mastery. Very, very ugly, and not even close to outlandishly unlikely. Whether its worth stretching the mana for red (Looting) is a different story, but it might be.
It is true that Mastery is essentially a mulligan in your opening hand, but Faithless Looting was recently printed. I don't think it is unreasonable to predict that people will be taking extra turns with their Delver decks in the coming Standard format. Between Ponder, Looting, Noxious Revival, Desperate Ravings, and Thought Scour it is not unreasonable to put a couple copies into a Delver deck and reasonably expect to cast them. And the payoff is just SO high.
But that's the problem---look at the cards you listed. You'd need to fit all that in to make this card worth it. and then, even if it did give you limited access to time walk, would that beat a competitive UW delver list now? I'll admit, I could totally see some sort of UR 'Miracle' deck that is based around getting miracles into the grave and using Noxious Revival to get them back, even if i don't think that deck would be tier 1 or anything. But if we're talking about current Delver lists, I don't think it has any place, and the archetype likely won't be moving in that direction. That's what my original post was addressing, not the creation of a deck made to make this sort of thing work.
But that's the problem---look at the cards you listed. You'd need to fit all that in to make this card worth it. and then, even if it did give you limited access to time walk, would that beat a competitive UW delver list now? I'll admit, I could totally see some sort of UR 'Miracle' deck that is based around getting miracles into the grave and using Noxious Revival to get them back, even if i don't think that deck would be tier 1 or anything. But if we're talking about current Delver lists, I don't think it has any place, and the archetype likely won't be moving in that direction. That's what my original post was addressing, not the creation of a deck made to make this sort of thing work.
Yes, you don't like it cos it doesn't seem likely it may work. How about you continue that rant once we see the entire set of Avacyn Restored for starters
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the sharpest steel is tempered in fire!!! though the plane of mirrodin is lost, the fire of mirrans still burn!!!!!
But if you do happen to cast it for miracle cost, don't you pretty much just win the game? Isn't that worth it?
Time Walk isn't an instant win card. If there is a close race, it will win the game for you, otherwise it's simply a powerful cantrip. While powerful, there are plenty of Vintage cards that win games much more reliably than Time Walk.
The thing about Delver though is that the existence of the card allows for virtually any U/x/y color combo (mana base dependent) to have a very real fast-clock plan of attack despite being 1/3 cheap spells. There are currently 7+ different color combinations that support competitive Delver decks in at least one format. It is not hard to fit Delver into a new shell.
I do understand what you mean and I agree. But people hear "Delver" and they think the creature, not the U/W Standard deck necessarily. And I think their concern is warranted.
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I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Time Walk isn't an instant win card. If there is a close race, it will win the game for you, otherwise it's simply a powerful cantrip. While powerful, there are plenty of Vintage cards that win games much more reliably than Time Walk.
Eh, I don't know anything about vintage/legacy. No real comment there, though it seems worth the effort with brainstorm to me.
In standard, though, where you're beating over the face with delver, it seems like the extra mana, turn of attacks, and land drop would be game-deciding. It might not win instantly, but it could give such an advantage that it'd take a miracle to come back.
Eh, I don't know anything about vintage/legacy. No real comment there, though it seems worth the effort with brainstorm to me.
In standard, though, where you're beating over the face with delver, it seems like the extra mana, turn of attacks, and land drop would be game-deciding. It might not win instantly, but it could give such an advantage that it'd take a miracle to come back.
It's a powerful effect, my point was that it isn't a guaranteed win. You need a powerful board presence for it to have the desired effect. It basically reads, "draw a card, untap all permanents you control, put a land into play, take an additional combat phase." If you don't have creatures out, the additional combat phase isn't too useful, if you aren't making every land drop, put a land into play isn't useful, if you weren't going to use all of your mana this turn, the untap isn't useful. Take an extra turn does lots of things, but it doesn't reverse games as much as people think it does. What it does is lock up close games or games where you are wining.
If you have a Geist of Saint Traft against an opponent's empty board, this will lock the game up and win it for you. If you have no board presence and are trying to answer an opponent's Geist of Saint Traft, this won't do much more than cycling 0. It is by no means bad, the question becomes whether the incredibly powerful Miracle effect is worth having the occasional brick. For a deck that isn't planing on having a board presence before it wins, the answer might be no. For a deck where having a brick means a loss, the answer might be no as well.
It's a powerful effect, my point was that it isn't a guaranteed win. You need a powerful board presence for it to have the desired effect. It basically reads, "draw a card, untap all permanents you control, put a land into play, take an additional combat phase." If you don't have creatures out, the additional combat phase isn't too useful, if you aren't making every land drop, put a land into play isn't useful, if you weren't going to use all of your mana this turn, the untap isn't useful. Take an extra turn does lots of things, but it doesn't reverse games as much as people think it does. What it does is lock up close games or games where you are wining.
If you have a Geist of Saint Traft against an opponent's empty board, this will lock the game up and win it for you. If you have no board presence and are trying to answer an opponent's Geist of Saint Traft, this won't do much more than cycling 0. It is by no means bad, the question becomes whether the incredibly powerful Miracle effect is worth having the occasional brick. For a deck that isn't planing on having a board presence before it wins, the answer might be no. For a deck where having a brick means a loss, the answer might be no as well.
Fair and true enough, and I agree. I'm not super familiar with many standard delver decks, but I was under the impression that they kept pressure on as best they could. Best way to stop them is to race and disrupt their ability to swing, via vapor snag, gut shot, or other removal. In decks like that, flipping the card seems pretty solid.
But yeah, it doesn't necessarily end the game if you flip it turn three and end up just dropping another land and passing turn for counterspells.
I wish there was some way to selectively ban this card UNLESS your deck had a pre-approved quota of terrible cards in it. This card seems sweet with, I don't know, Knowledge Pool or Mirror Of Fate or something. Obviously if you can make it work with real cards it is pretty broken, but I'd love for it to be exclusively playable in weird brews rather than Spike-y killing machines.
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I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
LOL, yeah, because Delver doesn't have ponder and lots of draw. U/R delver is even crazier with Faithless Looting and noxious revival. Having a potential 4 extra turns in a deck that can manipulate it's library even a little is insane. I guarantee the opportunity to have an extra turn will offset the risk of drawing 2 or more before turn 3, which isn't all that likely and can be dealt with anyway. You are nuts if you think Delver won't be playing this card all day. Drawing one of these turn 3 or after is basically an "I win" button for a deck as fast as Delver.
UR Delver isn't a deck. What card draw? The cantrips? That's not card draw. Tidings is card draw. Not sure how that helps at all, Gitaxian Probe does absolutely nothing. Ponder I mentioned, but that's not enough. It's obvious most people don't have a clue about Vintage, Time Walk isn't a staple. A lot of decks don't play it. It's usually an Explore. Gush is about the only play it does anything degenerate, and that's because of Gush and Yawgmoth's Will, not Time Walk itself. Time Walk is not an instant win card. You're living in magical christmas land, you've probably been there for a while.
Lol Time Walk is pretty good for a Standard Enviroment.
Couldn't you just cheat with the Miracle cards? How do you prove if the card someone drew was the miracle card? Not all of them will be cast right away, and almost everyone (including myself) that I play with shuffle their hands all the time, so whos to say they don't just play a card for its miracle cost regardless of if they drew it or not?
Realistically he should only be unblockable without equipment
Guard 1: There goes a sword floating down the street!
Guard 2: Well, he's unblockable, so ignore it.
Eat your greens kids, omnath does, and it makes him strong....
I think that between Ponder, Noxious Revival, faithless looting , miracle time walk, and the 5 damage red miracle there could be a deck out there that would do well at least %85 of the time.
...also part of me REALLY wants to play Chandra, the Firebrand in there just to say I copied a Miracle.
UR Delver isn't a deck. What card draw? The cantrips? That's not card draw. Tidings is card draw. Not sure how that helps at all, Gitaxian Probe does absolutely nothing. Ponder I mentioned, but that's not enough. It's obvious most people don't have a clue about Vintage, Time Walk isn't a staple. A lot of decks don't play it. It's usually an Explore. Gush is about the only play it does anything degenerate, and that's because of Gush and Yawgmoth's Will, not Time Walk itself. Time Walk is not an instant win card. You're living in magical christmas land, you've probably been there for a while.
You can't compare Vintage with other formats. A Time Walk in any other format will essentially mean a win. For Vintage it does not mean this, because of the rest of the Power 9 are that powerful that you can play your turn 1 without a land. Every other format you are limited in what you cand do be how much you have down, An example would be a turn 3 Jace in Legacy. Not may decks that aren't doing even more broken things can deal with that. Even more so as I mentioned earlier in the thread, those more broken decks almost all run Blue and can run Brainstorm to stack this as a draw for when you need it.
This card will be virtually unplayable in Standard, but it's essentially broken in Legacy.
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Legacy Decks
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Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
I think that between Ponder, Noxious Revival, faithless looting , miracle time walk, and the 5 damage red miracle there could be a deck out there that would do well at least %85 of the time.
...also part of me REALLY wants to play Chandra, the Firebrand in there just to say I copied a Miracle.
You won't be able to copy a Miracle with Chandra. Planeswalker abilities can only be used at sorcery speed, but you must play the Miracle WHEN YOU DRAW IT (during your draw step), so you will have no chance to activate Chandra's -2 beforehand.
This would only work if you had a way of skipping your draw step, then activating her -2 and drawing it during your main phase. Which is a 3-card combo just to take an extra turn, at which point you might as well just be playing a combo that actually wins you the game.
Lol Time Walk is pretty good for a Standard Enviroment.
Couldn't you just cheat with the Miracle cards? How do you prove if the card someone drew was the miracle card? Not all of them will be cast right away, and almost everyone (including myself) that I play with shuffle their hands all the time, so whos to say they don't just play a card for its miracle cost regardless of if they drew it or not?
Well, if someone suspected you or caught you in my shop, you can expect to be basically shunned for, like, ever. Oh, and then the judges would usually rule against you whenever a tricky rules question would come up.
Unfortunately the nutters have made a Time Walk 2.0 with Temporal Mastery and Vampiric Tutor and Brainstorm or any other Deck rigging card. Though in T2 it isn't that broken but it's going to be overpowered in draft. Since u are running 40 cards, it's very easy to run into a Miracle card. Happy drafting around Miracles. :D:D:D
Unfortunately the nutters have made a Time Walk 2.0 with Temporal Mastery and Vampiric Tutor and Brainstorm or any other Deck rigging card. Though in T2 it isn't that broken but it's going to be overpowered in draft. Since u are running 40 cards, it's very easy to run into a Miracle card. Happy drafting around Miracles. :D:D:D
To me personally, I don't believe Miracle is broken, it's the cards the mechanic is placed on. Temporal Mastery aside, the ability to pay R to deal 5 damage to target creature or player (Thunderous Wrath) is pretty crazy, normally you pay a R to deal 3 damage to target creature or player (Lightning Bolt)!
Also this probably pretty much confirms that ponder won't be in M13. Standard is going to be completely degenerate for a few months, holy crap.
edit:
LOL, yeah, because Delver doesn't have ponder and lots of draw. U/R delver is even crazier with Faithless Looting and noxious revival. Having a potential 4 extra turns in a deck that can manipulate it's library even a little is insane. I guarantee the opportunity to have an extra turn will offset the risk of drawing 2 or more before turn 3, which isn't all that likely and can be dealt with anyway. You are nuts if you think Delver won't be playing this card all day. Drawing one of these turn 3 or after is basically an "I win" button for a deck as fast as Delver.
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I'm sorry, but you want to play 4 of these in Delver? If you take a hand with one of these in it, congratulations, you just mulliganed. And ponder isn't the library manipulation that this card wants---this card wants Brainstorm. 2 is even suspect, as the variance is just SO HIGH. If you see this card in your first 9 cards, then congrats, it's wasted. Having lots of draw could even hurt it, because if you draw it off of a Gitaxian Probe or something, then it's wasted again. The tempo gain from this is huge in magical christmas land, sure, but then there are other games when you'd just lose because you essentially mulliganed and lost because you had a dead card.
Imagine holding counter magic up with Noxious Revival in hand and EOT Thought Scouring yourself, hitting.a Mastery. Very, very ugly, and not even close to outlandishly unlikely. Whether its worth stretching the mana for red (Looting) is a different story, but it might be.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
But that's the problem---look at the cards you listed. You'd need to fit all that in to make this card worth it. and then, even if it did give you limited access to time walk, would that beat a competitive UW delver list now? I'll admit, I could totally see some sort of UR 'Miracle' deck that is based around getting miracles into the grave and using Noxious Revival to get them back, even if i don't think that deck would be tier 1 or anything. But if we're talking about current Delver lists, I don't think it has any place, and the archetype likely won't be moving in that direction. That's what my original post was addressing, not the creation of a deck made to make this sort of thing work.
Yes, you don't like it cos it doesn't seem likely it may work. How about you continue that rant once we see the entire set of Avacyn Restored for starters
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
Time Walk isn't an instant win card. If there is a close race, it will win the game for you, otherwise it's simply a powerful cantrip. While powerful, there are plenty of Vintage cards that win games much more reliably than Time Walk.
I do understand what you mean and I agree. But people hear "Delver" and they think the creature, not the U/W Standard deck necessarily. And I think their concern is warranted.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Eh, I don't know anything about vintage/legacy. No real comment there, though it seems worth the effort with brainstorm to me.
In standard, though, where you're beating over the face with delver, it seems like the extra mana, turn of attacks, and land drop would be game-deciding. It might not win instantly, but it could give such an advantage that it'd take a miracle to come back.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
It's a powerful effect, my point was that it isn't a guaranteed win. You need a powerful board presence for it to have the desired effect. It basically reads, "draw a card, untap all permanents you control, put a land into play, take an additional combat phase." If you don't have creatures out, the additional combat phase isn't too useful, if you aren't making every land drop, put a land into play isn't useful, if you weren't going to use all of your mana this turn, the untap isn't useful. Take an extra turn does lots of things, but it doesn't reverse games as much as people think it does. What it does is lock up close games or games where you are wining.
If you have a Geist of Saint Traft against an opponent's empty board, this will lock the game up and win it for you. If you have no board presence and are trying to answer an opponent's Geist of Saint Traft, this won't do much more than cycling 0. It is by no means bad, the question becomes whether the incredibly powerful Miracle effect is worth having the occasional brick. For a deck that isn't planing on having a board presence before it wins, the answer might be no. For a deck where having a brick means a loss, the answer might be no as well.
Fair and true enough, and I agree. I'm not super familiar with many standard delver decks, but I was under the impression that they kept pressure on as best they could. Best way to stop them is to race and disrupt their ability to swing, via vapor snag, gut shot, or other removal. In decks like that, flipping the card seems pretty solid.
But yeah, it doesn't necessarily end the game if you flip it turn three and end up just dropping another land and passing turn for counterspells.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
1C
Crappy effect, draw a card
Miracle 0
1W
You gain 2 life, draw a card
Miracle 0
1R
Target creature you control gets +1/+0 and must attack this turn if able, draw a card.
Miracle 0
1G
Put a 0/1 green Plant creature token onto the battlefield, draw a card.
1B
Exile target card from a graveyard, draw a card.
1U
Target creature gets -2/-0 until end of turn, draw a card.
UR Delver isn't a deck. What card draw? The cantrips? That's not card draw. Tidings is card draw. Not sure how that helps at all, Gitaxian Probe does absolutely nothing. Ponder I mentioned, but that's not enough. It's obvious most people don't have a clue about Vintage, Time Walk isn't a staple. A lot of decks don't play it. It's usually an Explore. Gush is about the only play it does anything degenerate, and that's because of Gush and Yawgmoth's Will, not Time Walk itself. Time Walk is not an instant win card. You're living in magical christmas land, you've probably been there for a while.
Bident Layers
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RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
Couldn't you just cheat with the Miracle cards? How do you prove if the card someone drew was the miracle card? Not all of them will be cast right away, and almost everyone (including myself) that I play with shuffle their hands all the time, so whos to say they don't just play a card for its miracle cost regardless of if they drew it or not?
Come help me make my Pauper cube awsome!
...also part of me REALLY wants to play Chandra, the Firebrand in there just to say I copied a Miracle.
RGW Mayael the Anima fatties
Standard:
Building GU Simic beats
You can't compare Vintage with other formats. A Time Walk in any other format will essentially mean a win. For Vintage it does not mean this, because of the rest of the Power 9 are that powerful that you can play your turn 1 without a land. Every other format you are limited in what you cand do be how much you have down, An example would be a turn 3 Jace in Legacy. Not may decks that aren't doing even more broken things can deal with that. Even more so as I mentioned earlier in the thread, those more broken decks almost all run Blue and can run Brainstorm to stack this as a draw for when you need it.
This card will be virtually unplayable in Standard, but it's essentially broken in Legacy.
~~~~~~~~~
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Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
You won't be able to copy a Miracle with Chandra. Planeswalker abilities can only be used at sorcery speed, but you must play the Miracle WHEN YOU DRAW IT (during your draw step), so you will have no chance to activate Chandra's -2 beforehand.
This would only work if you had a way of skipping your draw step, then activating her -2 and drawing it during your main phase. Which is a 3-card combo just to take an extra turn, at which point you might as well just be playing a combo that actually wins you the game.
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Well, if someone suspected you or caught you in my shop, you can expect to be basically shunned for, like, ever. Oh, and then the judges would usually rule against you whenever a tricky rules question would come up.
Hope this is a set and we get angles like her for B,R and U. Maybe angelic versions of Dread, Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs & Tidespout Tyrant
To me personally, I don't believe Miracle is broken, it's the cards the mechanic is placed on. Temporal Mastery aside, the ability to pay R to deal 5 damage to target creature or player (Thunderous Wrath) is pretty crazy, normally you pay a R to deal 3 damage to target creature or player (Lightning Bolt)!
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