Every single time there is an argument about what "strictly better" means. On one side, people who want that term to be actually useful, on other side, people who hold onto a strict interpretation that is semantically correct, but almost useless in practice.
How about this: let's agree that it's "mostly better", where "mostly better" is defined as "it's always better in your deck unless you specifically build it to take advantage of the second card's minor differences".
For example, City of Brass is also usable with Platinum Emperion, Angel of Jubilation or any of the cards that let you survive on 0 or less life and is painfree with Urza's Armor, but in that case you'd specifically choose it over Mana Confluence because of that and not because it's a better card (unless you're afraid of opponent's Angel of Jubilation shutting your Mana Confluence).
A NEW CITY OF BRASS?!?!?!? OGMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!!! ITS GOING TO BREAK THE FORMATS WIDE OPEN! ESPECIALLY THAT ONE WHERE CITY OF BRASS IS ALREADY LEGAL!!! OMGOMG!
...yawn. someone wake me up when this set gets mildly interesting.
I think everyone needs to focus on how the card could be used in standard where mana is atrocious rather than how it's a hair better than CoB.
Well, I totally didn't foresee the green dictate being Heartbeat of Spring... said no one ever. It's still a very good card though, if slightly predictable from earlier spoils. I know I will groan when my opponents play it in Commander (I will more likely play more Dictates of Kruphix than this).
Launch the fleet is super flavorful and powerful. Will go in my janky WR heroic deck, although I don't think that will be enough to make it unjanky. Also, now they need to make a legendary creature named Helen that taps for 999 colorless and W.
...but that mana can only be used to cast a spell with the name Launch the Fleet
Dat fixed City of Brass! Really pumped about that for the junk beats deck I've been working on, I'll have to think harder on it when I'm not so tired, but pretty sure this fixes the mana issues nicely. As to how this hurts my red matchup, well, we'll have to see about that (there's great sideboard options at least). As to whether it is strictly better than CoB, it clearly isn't as there are cases where one is better than the other, although it would be hard to argue that it isn't generally speaking an upgrade. It is especially hard for me to think of it as strictly better because I still remember playing City of Brass and Worship in the same deck, and Mana Confluence in the same spot would have been worthless.
City of Brack! Excuse me, I was a bit too excited. City of Brass is back! And so beautiful too. I'm wayyy more into JOU than BNG and there's plenty more to go yet! Yeah! Money will be spent.
Soooo are they gona show the good cards next week? At best some of these are "Somewhat standard playable" This block is basically Kamigawa 2.0 I don't even play city of brass in my 5 color commander decks...
I like how half a dozen people are acting like Mana Confluence is a major upgrade over City of Brass.
Um, they're the same card in 99.99% of situations, and in the other 0.001% of situations, both have very minor pros and cons. Who gives a damn if its "strictly better" or not? It's the same card for all intents and purposes.
I really like the spoilers tonight. Mama confluence is very cool to have ninths format, really wasn't expecting it. I like dictate of karametra as well for EDH.
No, seriously, I really like it. It allows better manabases for standard (it's exactly what my BR aggro deck needs for the first couple of turns) and will even show up in older formats. Anyway, I don't expect it to reach Mutavault prices, but it can easily hit shockland level.
Dictate of Karametra is a great ramp option. It offers the same as Zhur-Taa Ancient but fixes the problem of helping your opponent ramp first. Don't know if it will see standard play but I'm already thinking...
And last, Launch of the Fleet is awesome for white weenie decks, especially those that make use of heroic. It's a shame that the tokens don't trigger battalion, but still.
A pseudo CoB reprint, not bad. JOU is shaping up to be much more powerful than either THS or BNG and thas saying something. In standard I am expecting almost every multicolored deck to be using this what with how the mana in standard is pretty bad, this shall be its saving grace. But with almost every deck (in standard) using this, I will bet that this will enter the $20 range. As fpr older formats, it will be based on the players preference in which deck he fits, in some cases, CoB is better while in others Mana Confluence is better.
The only other card that interests me in today's spoilers is Launch the Fleet, don't know why the lack of love but this is pretty good from early to mid game because of the strive mechanic, also it has a huge synergy with the Heroic mechanic thus you can trigger multiple Heroics with this. Its like giving your creatures +1/+1 but dividing it up into 2 creatures. That and if you have a Spear of Heliod in play or any card with a Static +1/+1 you will be dealing a lot of damage.
#1 - What's the dumbest idea you ever had?
#2 - 15/15 for 15?
#1 - Make it dumber
#2 - Give it protection from removal and counter?
#1 - DUMBER!
#2 - Add Timewalk?
#1 - DAMN IT MAN, I SAID DUMB!! DUMB !!!
#2 - It destroys everything when it attacks.... And wait, I have a friend who plays mill decks... I want to beat him too.
#1 - Excellent! Recess is over, go back and learn sex-ed with the other 6th graders.
Soooo are they gona show the good cards next week? At best some of these are "Somewhat standard playable" This block is basically Kamigawa 2.0 I don't even play city of brass in my 5 color commander decks...
The set is more like Innistrad for EDH and Kamigawa for Standard, and Homelands for the rest of the game.
This set looks fantastic for block constructed and maybe a few cards will break out come rotation, but right now barely anything is playable. So far out of the entire spoiler, only the following is going to be played in this standard.
-Dictate of Kruphix
-Gnared Scalhide
-Edilion of Great Revel
-Mana Confluence
-Both Scry Lands
-Hall of Triumph
-Sesstan Tactics (this is a big maybe since people don't even run Time to Feed and this is a lot slower)
Just too many of the cards are outclassed by what Esper, Mono B, GR Monsters and Mono U have to offer. People will try to be cute and try things out with Ajani and some of the gods already spoiled around the first few weeks of the set being released, but after time goes on, the winning decks won't include them. Nothing really spoiled so far can really hang with whats already winning in standard.
Not strictly better. Loss of life is worse than damage (damage can be prevented). Probably mostly better though as opponents can't tap it to damage you.
Never had your city of brass ported I guess?
I've had my City of Brasses Manipulated by Ice, but that doesn't make this strictly better.
Besides for the sake of being one of the "strictly better" people that only exist on this forum nowadays and are lol'ed at elsewhere (also, consider me surprised to see you championing such a concept after becoming accustomed to your wise posts,) please tell me some non-absurd, non name-a-card, relevant situations when City of Brass is better.
Just for the record, Mana Confluence isn't strictly better than City of Brass. The life payment is part of the cost rather than triggered. Anyone who has played against Burning Earth with something like Sphinx's Revelation knows how important that distinction can be in very close games with any sort of instant life gain/burn. If I'm at 1, you're at 3 and my only untapped land is City of Brass, I can kill you with a Lightning Bolt. I can't with a Mana Confluence. If I'm at 1 with Sphinx's Revelation, I can't use Mana Confluence to add one to the casting cost, but I could use City of Brass. Those aren't even remotely absurd or fringe scenarios. Mana Confluence is better, but certainly not strictly better.
It's really not hard to use the term strictly better - the struggles of this board to do it intelligently shocks me. Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock because Shock could only possibly be better if it somehow gets cast on you (Midslaver, for example) or redirected towards you or your creature (Wild Ricochet, for example). These aren't cards that are really played except maybe Mindlsaver, and that would be in a lock where Shock vs. Lightning Bolt could almost certainly not matter. Lightning Bolt isn't strictly better than Incinerate, though, because regeneration is a thing. It's a whole added ability on top of the other card, even if it's worse in most situations.
I wish Launch the Fleet could have been balanced around being an instant and said that if target creature is attacking, rather than if it attacks. That would have been fun.
Not strictly better. Loss of life is worse than damage (damage can be prevented). Probably mostly better though as opponents can't tap it to damage you.
Never had your city of brass ported I guess?
I've had my City of Brasses Manipulated by Ice, but that doesn't make this strictly better.
Besides for the sake of being one of the "strictly better" people that only exist on this forum nowadays and are lol'ed at elsewhere (also, consider me surprised to see you championing such a concept after becoming accustomed to your wise posts,) please tell me some non-absurd, non name-a-card, relevant situations when City of Brass is better.
Mana Confluence is great, I am very happy to see a City of Brass reprint in this format right now. This block has really put out some great lands so far.
Not strictly better. Loss of life is worse than damage (damage can be prevented). Probably mostly better though as opponents can't tap it to damage you.
Never had your city of brass ported I guess?
I've had my City of Brasses Manipulated by Ice, but that doesn't make this strictly better.
My response to that is only that I cant recall a game in which I was able to prevent the damage from City of brass. I have had my City of brass ported on my upkeep many times though.
grrrrr, City of Brass is making me miss the guildgates more and more. "Launching of a Thousand Ships" is going to be pretty sweet--definitely gonna help with WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW's reach or final alpha strike, i think. I'm gonna have to pick up a few Spear of Heliods now. Just need mroe Rootborn Defenses and a decision for what color to splash (probably red because of their hasties, though i lack more than 1 Boros Charm. Green is another option i tried but for THAT i need more Unflinching Courage)
Dictate of Karametra is pretty cool! I can just imagine a super flash/ramp riku deck with Prophet of Kruphix+ Zhur-Taa Ancient on opp's turn + Kruphix, God of Horizons (5 floating, 7 if you hit your land drop) + Dictate of Karametra on opp's turn (2 or 4 remaining from previous turn--let's go with 4--with 4 untapped lands) + Dictate of Kruphix (3 floating, 3 untapped lands) um...oh crap, need to copy Zhur-ta ancient!! lol well, whatever, it;s still a christmas town play, but would be hilarious
I like how half a dozen people are acting like Mana Confluence is a major upgrade over City of Brass.
Um, they're the same card in 99.99% of situations, and in the other 0.001% of situations, both have very minor pros and cons. Who gives a damn if its "strictly better" or not? It's the same card for all intents and purposes.
It is the difference between 4-5 damage and none in Legacy for many matches in no small part to Rishadan Port. Which is far from a corner case, really, and could be brutally important. Granted, City doesn't show up in many decks, even 3-color, but it does show up occasionally in some decks.
It's not even really a corner case in this scenario; one would be quite lucky not to see a Port at any given legacy event, due to how strong it and due to how strong Death and Taxes is.
In standard and modern, however, it's an entirely different story. There would be almost no noticeable difference between the two.
To the first, that is rarely ever going to occur. That said, there isn't really much benefit to running Confluence over City. Nor is there really a significant downside either. Certainly in modern there are corner cases where what you described would occur, but I think it's safe to say that it will come up approximately almost never where exactly 1 mana and 1 extra life will win you the game instead of lose you the game. You'd have to be tapped out with everything else, have an instant in hand that will win you the game, and have the opponent to a point where they will die.
As far as Angel of Jubilation is concerned, I don't even think that sees modern play at all. At least not that I know of. I'm trying to keep this at least in the realm of somewhat likely to occur for the sake of discussion; certainly I can forsee the example that you're at 1 life and just so happen to have an instant that wins you the game, however unlikely I find that scenario. Angel of Jubilation? Eh...
And as said for legacy, I believe that the lack of a further downside with Port will far more than make up for those incredible corner cases that probably won't occur all that often.
And it standard they are going to be largely interchangeable again, as a Sphinx's revelation deck is certainly not going to run this.
I like how half a dozen people are acting like Mana Confluence is a major upgrade over City of Brass.
Um, they're the same card in 99.99% of situations, and in the other 0.001% of situations, both have very minor pros and cons. Who gives a damn if its "strictly better" or not? It's the same card for all intents and purposes.
It is the difference between 4-5 damage and none in Legacy for many matches in no small part to Rishadan Port. Which is far from a corner case, really, and could be brutally important. Granted, City doesn't show up in many decks, even 3-color, but it does show up occasionally in some decks.
It's not even really a corner case in this scenario; one would be quite lucky not to see a Port at any given legacy event, due to how strong it and due to how strong Death and Taxes is.
Um, it's an incredible corner case because only a single deck plays Port and more importantly no one plays City of Brass except Dredge and the Dredge players life total barely matters.
Angelheart Vial works with city of brass not the new card
I think everyone needs to focus on how the card could be used in standard where mana is atrocious rather than how it's a hair better than CoB.
Modern: U M'Olk; B Goodstuff
...but that mana can only be used to cast a spell with the name Launch the Fleet
It isn't happening no matter what in M15. Deathrite Shaman will still be in Standard. Jund and BG Rock would just crush everything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Um, they're the same card in 99.99% of situations, and in the other 0.001% of situations, both have very minor pros and cons. Who gives a damn if its "strictly better" or not? It's the same card for all intents and purposes.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
No, seriously, I really like it. It allows better manabases for standard (it's exactly what my BR aggro deck needs for the first couple of turns) and will even show up in older formats. Anyway, I don't expect it to reach Mutavault prices, but it can easily hit shockland level.
Dictate of Karametra is a great ramp option. It offers the same as Zhur-Taa Ancient but fixes the problem of helping your opponent ramp first. Don't know if it will see standard play but I'm already thinking...
And last, Launch of the Fleet is awesome for white weenie decks, especially those that make use of heroic. It's a shame that the tokens don't trigger battalion, but still.
The only other card that interests me in today's spoilers is Launch the Fleet, don't know why the lack of love but this is pretty good from early to mid game because of the strive mechanic, also it has a huge synergy with the Heroic mechanic thus you can trigger multiple Heroics with this. Its like giving your creatures +1/+1 but dividing it up into 2 creatures. That and if you have a Spear of Heliod in play or any card with a Static +1/+1 you will be dealing a lot of damage.
The set is more like Innistrad for EDH and Kamigawa for Standard, and Homelands for the rest of the game.
This set looks fantastic for block constructed and maybe a few cards will break out come rotation, but right now barely anything is playable. So far out of the entire spoiler, only the following is going to be played in this standard.
-Dictate of Kruphix
-Gnared Scalhide
-Edilion of Great Revel
-Mana Confluence
-Both Scry Lands
-Hall of Triumph
-Sesstan Tactics (this is a big maybe since people don't even run Time to Feed and this is a lot slower)
Just too many of the cards are outclassed by what Esper, Mono B, GR Monsters and Mono U have to offer. People will try to be cute and try things out with Ajani and some of the gods already spoiled around the first few weeks of the set being released, but after time goes on, the winning decks won't include them. Nothing really spoiled so far can really hang with whats already winning in standard.
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Besides for the sake of being one of the "strictly better" people that only exist on this forum nowadays and are lol'ed at elsewhere (also, consider me surprised to see you championing such a concept after becoming accustomed to your wise posts,) please tell me some non-absurd, non name-a-card, relevant situations when City of Brass is better.
It's really not hard to use the term strictly better - the struggles of this board to do it intelligently shocks me. Lightning Bolt is strictly better than Shock because Shock could only possibly be better if it somehow gets cast on you (Midslaver, for example) or redirected towards you or your creature (Wild Ricochet, for example). These aren't cards that are really played except maybe Mindlsaver, and that would be in a lock where Shock vs. Lightning Bolt could almost certainly not matter. Lightning Bolt isn't strictly better than Incinerate, though, because regeneration is a thing. It's a whole added ability on top of the other card, even if it's worse in most situations.
I wish Launch the Fleet could have been balanced around being an instant and said that if target creature is attacking, rather than if it attacks. That would have been fun.
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My response to that is only that I cant recall a game in which I was able to prevent the damage from City of brass. I have had my City of brass ported on my upkeep many times though.
Dictate of Karametra is pretty cool! I can just imagine a super flash/ramp riku deck with Prophet of Kruphix+ Zhur-Taa Ancient on opp's turn + Kruphix, God of Horizons (5 floating, 7 if you hit your land drop) + Dictate of Karametra on opp's turn (2 or 4 remaining from previous turn--let's go with 4--with 4 untapped lands) + Dictate of Kruphix (3 floating, 3 untapped lands) um...oh crap, need to copy Zhur-ta ancient!! lol well, whatever, it;s still a christmas town play, but would be hilarious
enchanting Witchstalker with Raised by Wolves
It is the difference between 4-5 damage and none in Legacy for many matches in no small part to Rishadan Port. Which is far from a corner case, really, and could be brutally important. Granted, City doesn't show up in many decks, even 3-color, but it does show up occasionally in some decks.
It's not even really a corner case in this scenario; one would be quite lucky not to see a Port at any given legacy event, due to how strong it and due to how strong Death and Taxes is.
In standard and modern, however, it's an entirely different story. There would be almost no noticeable difference between the two.
This. If you are at 1 life but have an instant-speed way to win, you can use City of Brass to win, while this new land won't help you.
Also not standard, but Angel of Jubilation doesn't shut down City of Brass.
To the first, that is rarely ever going to occur. That said, there isn't really much benefit to running Confluence over City. Nor is there really a significant downside either. Certainly in modern there are corner cases where what you described would occur, but I think it's safe to say that it will come up approximately almost never where exactly 1 mana and 1 extra life will win you the game instead of lose you the game. You'd have to be tapped out with everything else, have an instant in hand that will win you the game, and have the opponent to a point where they will die.
As far as Angel of Jubilation is concerned, I don't even think that sees modern play at all. At least not that I know of. I'm trying to keep this at least in the realm of somewhat likely to occur for the sake of discussion; certainly I can forsee the example that you're at 1 life and just so happen to have an instant that wins you the game, however unlikely I find that scenario. Angel of Jubilation? Eh...
And as said for legacy, I believe that the lack of a further downside with Port will far more than make up for those incredible corner cases that probably won't occur all that often.
And it standard they are going to be largely interchangeable again, as a Sphinx's revelation deck is certainly not going to run this.
Um, it's an incredible corner case because only a single deck plays Port and more importantly no one plays City of Brass except Dredge and the Dredge players life total barely matters.
That's the definition of "a corner case".
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades