Ladies and gentleman, Christmas came 12 months early this year.
I present the first sultai control commander:
You might think there are other sultai control legends. But you'd be wrong - all the other sultai commanders are fundamentally unsuited to helm control decks. Here's why:
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: in order to trigger her ability, you have to be running a significant number of creatures. Guess what card type really sucks when you're trying to react to enemy threats efficiently and control the board?
Vorosh, the Hunter: this guy is just boring. Nothing specifically prevents you from playing him as control, but he just kinda sucks. And he doesn't help control in any crucial way.
Damia, Sage of Stone: (1) She costs too much (2) She's a hate magnet, something you don't want when playing control unless you're about to win (3) She works best when you're dumping your hand. Control decks do not dump their hand.
Mimeoplasm: He works okay as a control commander, but he runs into the same problem as Sidisi, and generally he wants a bunch of card slots dedicated to synergizing with him to really get your money's worth, most of which are not good for control. And he also has the Damia problem of drawing hate.
So, Tasigur? Tasigur is the real freaking deal. I'm sure people will build boring old ramp-draw-bomb decks with him, but they'll always be fighting against his nature. Your opponents don't WANT to give you bombs, they don't WANT to give you ramp. You'd have to exile cards from your own graveyard to force them to give you want you want - and even then, Tasigur can throw a wrench in the works by dumping something you don't want into your grave when you activate him. But if you play him as control - asking one opponent to give you removal or a counterspell to stop a mutually-detrimental bomb from another opponent, you can work not against him, but WITH him. You can use him to pit the table against itself, and destroy your enemies one at a time, using the game's most undervalued resource: your opponents.
Ok, enough squee. Here's the decklist I've put together.
Removal is the lifeblood of Tasigur. Removal is great at breaking combos, saving your bacon, saving someone else's bacon, and generally balancing the table for a low cost.
Tragic Slip: 4.0
The preponderance of removal in this deck makes it fairly easy to get the morbid, but it also has few creatures of its own to sacrifice. The low cost and ability to kill indestructibles make this a strong creature-only removal spell nevertheless.
Hero's Downfall: 3.0
The ability to his planeswalkers, which is otherwise fairly difficult for this deck, makes this a strong card despite the relatively high cost.
Into the Roil: 2.5
Hitting non-creature permanents makes this useful in its flexibility, and the option of casting it without cantrip makes it fairly cheap when necessary. However it can get tiresome to get this back into your hand repeatedly as it doesn't solve problems permanently unless they're tokens.
Wipe away: 2.0
Very effective at breaking combos, however it's expensive and can get pretty clunky to recur with Tasigur. I would try to hold this in your hand unless it's necessary to cast it.
Submerge: 3.5
This has a fairly high chance of being totally free, which is outstanding, it can get around indestructibility, and it's easy to tuck commanders in response to a shuffle. When it's not free, it's okay, but clunky. When things get down to 1v1, locking down enemy draws is pretty powerful so you don't get surprised by a lucky topdeck.
capsize: 4.0
With the amount of ramp this deck generates, Capsize is a strong way to use it, protecting your own critical permanents and getting rid of theirs. With seedborn or Prophet this gets pretty out of control and can be used to lock someone out of lands while you kill the other player with Tasigur.
Spin into Myth: 3.5
If we had access to white this might not make the cut, but here it's our only reliable tuck spell for commanders on the field. This makes it a great spell to shut down someone who's threatening to overwhelm the table, to hold as ultimate retaliation, or to use once you're down to a 1v1 game to lock down your last opponent. Don't forget that it fateseals their topdeck as well, which either lets you know that their topdeck is dead or gets rid of a serious threat.
Far // Away: 3.5
This deck needs ways to interact with hexproof commanders, and this is a pretty good way to do it. The cheap bounce is also nice to have access too, and the all-around flexibility makes up for the highish cost.
Domineering will: 4.5
This card is an incredible blowout for 4 mana. This card has the capability to balance the tables all on its own, and it works oh-so-much-better with collusion. It's not as strong in a combo-centric game, but even then you can probably convince someone to attack you while you steal another player's critical creatures and throw them under the bus.
Victim of Night: 4.0
No muss, no fuss, 1 creature dead for 2 mana. With a good base this is pretty easy to cast, and black tends to be less valuable anyway since you can't activate Tasigur with it.
Go for the Throat: 4.0
Better than victim of night if your mana is weaker, but the restriction tends to be more relevant. Staple black removal.
Beast within: 5.0
Possibly my favorite removal spell. Anything dead - anything - for 3 mana. Quite the deal. This should be an auto-include in any control deck that can run it.
Putrefy: 4.0
As far as flexible removal goes, this is quite strong, and 3 mana is pretty reasonable for killing 2 of the most dangerous permanent types.
Sultai Charm: 4.0
The inability to kill most commanders drags on this a lot, but it's very close to a beast within sans beast token otherwise. The draw mode is mostly useless but at least it means it's never dead.
Abrupt Decay: 3.0
This will always have a reasonable target, so don't worry about it being dead very often. It's not the most thrilling thing to get back over and over, but the uncounterability is nice to have.
Pongify/Rapid Hybridization: 4.5
One blue to kill a creature is phenomenal. The token is a small downside when your commander is a 4/5.
dismember: 4.0
The life cost can be somewhat painful, but luckily it's optional, and the flexibility here is great. -5/-5 kills most any combo-tasting creature, but won't necessarily deal with the biggest beaters.
Murderous Cut: 4.5
Cut is not only a very efficient removal spell at just B, it's also a great way to thin your grave before activating Tasigur. It gets a little less exciting on multiple recursions once your graveyard gets thin, but it's still one of the best removal available for this deck.
Silence the Believers: 3.5
Silence is on the more expensive end of this deck's removal, but while it's not great for early-game it gets nutty in the late-game when you can exile multiple targets at once. Also, exiling is fairly hard to come by so it's worth the cost.
Wipes
Wipes are the panic button of Tasigur. Did someone get out to an explosive start that must be controlled? Are there dangerous hexproof creatures around? Crack open that wipe and bring the table back to equilibrium.
Oblivion Stone: 4.0
Oblivion stone is the gold standard for wipes in any color. It's much better than disk for coming in untapped, however you do need to be careful that it doesn't get killed while you're tapped out. In the late-game, fate counters can be pretty clutch, and don't forget that you can regenerate through it with yavimaya hollow.
Pernicious Deed: 4.0
This can frequently be used as an o-stone that spares Tasigur, however it does have the downside of killing high-cmc threats. But that's what removal is for, no?
Toxic Deluge: 4.0
Being able to control this to leave Tasigur alive is great, however like deed it's not ideal for killing the really expensive stuff. Kills hexproof indestructibles in a pinch though.
cyclonic rift: 5.0
Leaves your stuff untouched while getting of everything else. It's not as OP here as in other decks, but it's still one of the format's defining cards.
This is a tricky deck to make and to look at, so here's a few of the thoughts that went into it to make sense of the madness.
In order to motivate your enemies to give you what you want, you want to provide them with options that they can see immediate utility in. For example, if an opponent has an avacyn on the board, they'll probably be happy to give you your silence the believers. If someone is casting craterhoof behemoth, they'll be happy to give you your stifle. It's a lot harder to motivate your enemies to give you cards that benefit you alone - i.e. most permanents, which is why there aren't very many permanents. It is, however, worth noting that if you want to get back a crucial engine, i.e. crucible or seedborn muse, you might have more luck selecting the opponent who's in the lead - since he knows he'll be the target for hate - and do the opposite when you want your answers.
While ideally you can count on your enemies to give you want you want, so long as it hurts your mutual enemy (i.e. counters and removal to be used immediately), at some point(s) that won't be possible, and you'll have to assume you're getting the most useless card out of your graveyard. For that reason, I've avoided as many low-impact spells, or situational spells, as possible. This is also why I don't have any non-permanent ramp - you don't want to be getting back rampant growths when you're trying to get an answer for an imminent threat, and also why I don't run normally auto-includes like brainstorm and ponder.
The deck avoids a lot of typical engines such as con sphinx and necropotence. I did this mostly because I tend to notice that constant CA arouses quite of a bit of unwanted attention, which is exactly what this deck doesn't want. Getting answers only for what's needed and otherwise minding your own business and being nonthreatening is the order of the day, until you're ready to actually win. When your opponents know, and have some measure of control over, what you're getting into your hand, I think they'll be less likely to pay attention to you, especially with a barrage of targeted removal aimed at whoever defies you first.
A few mechanical details:
To avoid decking yourself, you can use volrath's stronghold or academy ruins. After activating Tasigur's ability at EOT (feel free to mill your entire deck), use your own removal on a creature/artifact and then put it on top of your deck. Then draw the creature/artifact and replay it. If the game goes this long, you effectively have buyback on all your cards, so you can probably counterlock, removallock, and striplock the entire field with the mana you're generating.
Typical intuition pile is LFTL + lands, or LFTL + VS + seedborn. Mystical teachings also works well with intuition, as does a random selection of counters or removal for which to answer the latest threat.
If you're wondering how the deck actually wins, it's probably commander damage via rogue's passage/shizo, or just killing all their stuff and swinging unopposed. But realistically, if you're in the "my lands are on the field and my spells are in my hand" mode described above, winning is pretty trivial. Part of the point of the deck is to avoid having a dangerous wincon, so you make a less scary ally.
LFTL is a clutch engine for this deck - it interacts great with the commander, and also with the cyclers, fetches, and tolaria west.
Yes, there are a lot of ways to make a strip mine chain. Yet another reason your enemies will not want to mess with you.
This deck needs more ramp. This deck will live or die on its ability to generate consistent card advantage at all points in the game. Play less targeted removal, more ramp. Contemplate adding Spell Burst if this is your gameplan. Focus less on targeted one-offs and more on repeatable engines. Get some more Delve and/or graveyard shuffle effects involved to reduce your opponents ability to choose poorly. Loaming Shaman is perfect at that, as is Relic of Progenitus. Reito Lantern is a great piece of tech too.
This deck also starkly lacks any means of winning the game. I understand wanting to play a control deck, but a 4/5 will just not go the distance on its own. It's a 6-turn clock, per player. There's only so much fighting you can anticipate your opponents to do to each other. You also lack any reliable means to allow a player to combo off without affecting you, which is just about the only scenario where a dearth of wincons is suitable.
This deck needs more ramp. This deck will live or die on its ability to generate consistent card advantage at all points in the game. Play less targeted removal, more ramp. Contemplate adding Spell Burst if this is your gameplan. Focus less on targeted one-offs and more on repeatable engines. Get some more Delve and/or graveyard shuffle effects involved to reduce your opponents ability to choose poorly. Loaming Shaman is perfect at that, as is Relic of Progenitus. Reito Lantern is a great piece of tech too.
This deck also starkly lacks any means of winning the game. I understand wanting to play a control deck, but a 4/5 will just not go the distance on its own. It's a 6-turn clock, per player. There's only so much fighting you can anticipate your opponents to do to each other. You also lack any reliable means to allow a player to combo off without affecting you, which is just about the only scenario where a dearth of wincons is suitable.
Ick, from your first sentence I don't think we're going to get along I'd rather bring my curve low than dedicate cards to ramp for a control deck. In this deck I'm of two minds, though, since more ramp means more slow-impact cards my opponents can put into my hand, but it also means more activations of my commander in the long run. So...maybe. But still. If that's your first thought about this deck then I don't think we're talking about the same game.
Spell burst seems too expensive and inefficient. All my spells have functional buyback anyway with my commander, I don't need to spend a million mana to keep a bad counter.
The commander IS the engine. He turns all the "one-offs" into repeatable loops. That's kind of the whole point. More expensive, engine-type cards are unnecessary, as are graveyard -reducing cards since my opponents should always want (or be made to want) to put into my hand what I want them to. If they don't, I've clearly chosen the wrong opponent. Loaming shaman (or something similar) might be necessary to recover my graveyard if I go too deep though, and act as grave hate. Reito lantern I love in Zirilan but here? I could practically activate my commander an entire additional time, and just get the card into my hand instead of on the bottom of the deck.
I only have to kill 1 person, so a 4/5 can get there in a pinch. Phelddagrif has slain many an opponent. His lack of evasion is a bit of a problem, but on the plus side, I get to use the same tagline I did when I played Phelddagrif - "the only thing in this deck that can kill you is the commander itself..."
What about Sultai Ascendancy? Controling your draws and filling the yard at the same time seems pretty good to me. Also I see the Mana Drain, but what about Plasm Capture? I know it is harder to cast, but the extra colored mana seems pretty useful in this deck.
Honestly this is just a super rough draft (mostly cobbled from bits of my other decks). When I get home I'm going to pull out my whole collection and really figure him out.
Sultai ascendancy is a maybe, I've never been a big fan of it, though. It has a bit of anti-synergy here as well, in that if I don't want a card and dump it, then it's a potential target for my opponents to put into my hand. Of course we're trying to use politics to get what we want, but I think I'd still much prefer phyrexian arena or something.
Plasm capture wouldn't be a high pick for me generally because of the high cost, but I'm probably trying to keep a bunch of mana open for his ability anyway so it's probably one of the better options.
Thinking about ramp, I think Beware is right, although I don't want to run single-shot ramp like artifacts or three visits - but burgeoning and exploration (and maybe oracle) work well with lftl and crucible, and prophet and seedborn muse let me keep answers open around the clock while also fueling my commander.
I also think I'll kick up the number of tutors that hit intuition when I get the real decklist together. intuition for lftl + sweet land + exploration (using the commander to hopefully eventually get by exploration?) could be a pretty sweet play.
Had a long-winded response, but you conceded the point, so f it.
I do think you are relying on your opponents a little too much. I understand the appeal of never giving them a good option, but you will still want ways to alter the variance. Relic of Progenitus is a great example of a card that does that while also supplying additional utility. It's also a card that will frequently be given to you when given the option which can certainly work in the control deck's favor. Library manipulation is also a good way to get it done, the problem being is they will frequently be what you are given when you activate Golden Fang. Scroll Rack may be good enough.
You have captured my own thoughts about this guy very well. I wanted to build a BUG deck, but Damia durdle and Mimeoplasm reanimator never thrilled me.
Still working on the decklist. It's become quite a project. I'll try to have a final list up by tomorrow or the day after.
mesmeric orb: too much mill. This isn't karador, I don't need a million cards in the grave, and I don't want to fuel other decks.
Not really that into cards that exile other cards from my grave, or put them back in my deck, or control my topdeck pre-activation, or whatever. I'm not trying to force them to put combo pieces in my hand, the idea is that (1) none of the cards in the deck are ever dead (or as close as possible), and (2) if I pick the right opponent, he'll give me the card that I want.
deep analysis is a sorcery so no. If it's not an instant, it better do a really good job of justifying its existence. Flash of insight is ok but kind of overpriced. Mystical teachings, as ever, is solid. It's in one of these piles of cards I'm making the deck from.
I'm not sure what the wincon is for the deck yet. commander damage seems like a slog without evasion, but maybe I could throw in shizo, death's storehouse and try to get the job done. Lab man is an option I guess, but I don't like relying too much on something that could get exiled pretty easily (and could also easily be a dead card).
Updated the OP with my new, carefully crafted decklist. And it only took me 10 hours or so.
Honestly, though, this guy is one of the trickiest legends to build, ever. I'm going to want a lot of testing before I'm at all satisfied with this list.
Although I do like the card, to me it seems most likely not worth it, for a few reasons.
Firstly, building without quiet speculation I've only got 1 flashback spell I believe. That means, in order to include quiet speculation, you're weakening 2 other cards (assuming that my list is perfect, which obviously it's not, but still I doubt I'd want any flashback spells over what I have), plus replacing a card with quiet speculation. And if you don't draw quiet speculation, that weakening is all for naught.
Secondly, there's a real decent chance of drawing/milling the flashback cards before quiet speculation, which means when you DO cast it, it's a lot worse. That's a lot less significant if it were something you tutored for frequently to cast ASAP, but...
Thirdly, it's almost strictly worse than intuition. Or at least, it's just a lot worse than intuition.
And fourthly, even if you cast it and put three flashback spells in your grave...it's going to be a prime target for your opponents to return to your hand when you activate your commander, which is going to suck if it has no more targets. So now you have to run a LOT of flashback spells, and I just don't see that ever being worth it.
I think that you definitely want oracle of mul daya and courser of kruphix. knowing that top card can be very helpful in determining if you wnt to activate Tasigur. The card represents a threat in this deck, because the whole table knows that you could get that card in hand and use it if you asked the right opponent. Representing a threat without being one is exactly what this deck seems like it wants to do.
For some reason I want to play Marang-River Prowler here too, because it seems like an alternate wincon for you, as you can push some damage around the board and/or pump it.
I got to playtest this last night, and I have to say, it's freaking awesome. It was not really an ideal situation to play in - my 3 opponents were all my friends who seem to think I have superhuman EDH abilities and are predisposed to target me out of the gate - exactly what I don't want when playing control. None of them are particularly predisposed to redirect their hate at threat of retaliation either, making a lot of my removal less powerful than it can be. I got stuck on 3 lands for several turns and had to discard to hand size despite keeping a 3-lander and having a 43 land deck.
However, after I managed to set up intuition for my LFTL package I played 1+ lands for the rest of the game, and managed to dismantle the serious, long-term threats while keeping out of the limelight, but holding up answers to anything dangerous to come along. Tasigur drew removal the first time he came down, but the second time I was more careful and made sure there were more pressing concerns on the table. Then I got seedborn muse online and starting activating Tasigur to insanity, and basically locked down the game. Eventually I decided my best wincon was to commander damage one of the remaining players, while strip-locking the other one, but needless to say the game ended before then when both players realized they were horrendously screwed by Tasigur getting back 12+ cards per cycle, nearly all of which were highly relevant - either ramping me into more shenanigans, locking down options to hurt me, or straight-up counter/removal. The game lasted 2.5 hours, and despite everyone going into it with the intention to deny me the win, I still won.
I give this deck a 5/5. Tasigur is the real deal.
On top of just being strong, he is INSANELY difficult to play correctly. Like, possibly the hardest to play commander ever printed. Just deciding what to delve requires intense consideration, not to mention every activation of his ability has to take into account many different factors when deciding when you activate it and who you choose to choose. Regardless whether he's the best sultai commander (he gets my vote), I love how complex he is to play. He's a real winner in my book.
Oracle I think should go in, Courser I don't think provides enough value. Ramp was definitely useful, but just playing off the top alone isn't that exciting, I get plenty of lands with crucible/lftl.
torrent elemental and misthollow griffin are both way too vanilla to consider, no matter how invincible they are. Same for river prowler. My wincons are commander damage or a hard lock.
If you want to include Villainous Wealth, go for it. I don't think it'll hurt your deck much. It will be a dead card early, though, and you'll never get it back to your hand via tasigur. I'd rather win via attrition, since once this deck is going off it doesn't stop.
Abrupt decay kills loads of stuff, and it's cheap. I doubt I'll ever feel bad about running it.
Sultai Ascendancy seems like a no brainer and this deck needs more ramp and win conditions. Maybe some planeswalkers. I think this has major potential. I really think this deck wants more ramp and acceleration. I also like Deadbridge Chant
Sultai Ascendancy seems like a no brainer and this deck needs more ramp and win conditions. Maybe some planeswalkers. I think this has major potential. I really think this deck wants more ramp and acceleration. I also like Deadbridge Chant
First of all, let me say that it is seriously very hard to determine what makes a good card for this build. Going in I was kind of shooting in the dark, having played it once I think I have a somewhat better idea. But I'm sure I'll have to tune it a lot.
That said, I'm pretty sure sultai ascendancy is just bad for this deck. For one thing, it's just not that great to begin with, even in an ideal circumstance. For a second thing, while it can feed Tasigur's initial cost, it's also pretty antisynergistic with his ability. See a useless card on top of your deck? If you leave it on top, you're wasting your draw. If you put it in the grave, you're wasting his next ability activation (unless you can convince someone to give you something better because of an in-game circumstance). If you put it second from the top, you're making your ascendancy much less useful. And finally, and most damning for me - and this ties into what makes a good card for this deck - it's a pretty terrible late-game card, and this deck REALLY wants to avoid those. I saw 80% of my deck last game, so a nearly-dead late-game draw like sultai ascendancy WILL end up coming back to my hand and annoying me at some point. When I played the deck, once I was out in the lead my opponents were squirming over nearly every activation of his ability because all the cards were hugely relevant. Sultai ascendancy frequently will not be. It's only "good" in my starting hand, but it will hurt me almost every game.
Ramp suffers from the same issue - cards like sakura-tribe elder, normally pretty good, are horrible in this deck because they're weak late-game draws, and you don't want your opponent to neutralize Tasigur's activation. The ramp I DO like is the permanent variety, with an effect that has significant impact over the entire game - exploration, burgeoning, seedborn muse, etc. So I might put in mana reflection or oracle of mul daya, but I'm never putting in sorcery ramp. The deck doesn't really want or need early-game ramp anyway, it's all about acceleration in the late game when you've outed yourself as the primary threat at the table.
wincons I dislike, at least the traditional big fat wincons. Firstly, they clog up your hand in the early game. Secondly, they just won't get returned to your hand by tasigur unless the table wills it, which is probably never going to happen. That doesn't really make them worse, but it neutralizes their value a lot since this deck doesn't draw many cards normally (hence chains' presence). And thirdly, and most importantly, you just really don't need them. This deck's goal is to lock down the entire table with removal and counterspells and bury them under a mountain of CA. Once that's accomplished, winning is trivial. I guess maybe if you suggested a particular wincon that worked well in the deck I might consider it, but just a generic idea, I'm opposed and I don't think they're necessary.
Planeswalkers may or may not be defendable for this deck. Depends a lot on how ok the table is with the "if you raise a hand to me, you lose the hand" method of politics. Certainly it'll be hard to do that if you're about to ult tamiyo. For this deck, I think the goal is roughly to try to keep just enough incremental advantage to keep up with, and control the table, without getting in the lead and drawing hate, and then once the table is pretty under-control, going into insane ramp mode and trying to lock everyone down. So are planeswalkers necessary for keeping that incremental advantage, or can tasigur do it on his own? Not sure, requires more testing. Definitely they have the same issue has wincons in that they likely will never be returned to your hand. My gut says that I'd rather run stuff like phyrexian arena before I run a planeswalker in this deck, though. Are there any in particular you think would do well?
Deadbridge chant was in my potential pile until I realized it's absolute garbage in this deck. Unless you can control your graveyard, or you're running a lot of creatures, it's basically just a 6-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss, where your opponents get to see what you return. Tasigur provides a little graveyard control with his delve, but besides that I really have no grave control, and I only have a few creatures in the whole deck (and the timing of playing them is pretty crucial and shouldn't be done too early), so I don't see it happening.
This looks awesome and you're right about it being hard to think of cards - for instance, I wanted to suggest Perplex until I realized that it's a horrible card to have floating in the 'yard on turn 12, and Innocent Blood is awful once your commander is out too. Nevertheless, I think there's some good counters and removal you are missing.
Additionally, it sort of freaks me out how little draw power you have. I'd consider some other solid card drawing spell, or maybe Muddle the Mixture since it transmutes to LftL which is your primary draw engine.
Hope that helps!
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Been thinking more about this, slowly working on my own build, and i have some questions/ideas. What are your thoughts on All Sun's Dawn? It seems pretty great to me, it can get you up to three cards of your choice, and then it exiles itself so you opponents wont have a dead (sorcery) card to give you with Tasigur.
Next, i know you are against sorcery ramp, but what about reap and sow, it not only fetches non-basics, but can also remove lands, which may be more useful than other sorcery ramp spells. Also you have expressed some dislike on the idea of removing cards from your graveyard slowly with cards like reito lantern, but what about Psychatog? He does it repeatedly for free and boosts himself at the same time, which may make him worth considering. Also late game, if you have seen 80% of your deck, he can swing for 40+ damage by himself. Also he has great artwork (:
Third, your thoughts on the praetors, especially Jin-gitaxias and Vorinclex? They feel very controllish, and could help lock down that last opponent, and Jin has flash... Finally, i know he is risky but Dralnu, lich lord seems like he could be very useful in this deck, especially when the last enemy isn't giving you what you need. Worst case, you have the ability to bounce/kill him if you need to.
I definitely second Psychatog as a possible Wincon/grave manipulation. You will NEVER get it back from Tasigur, though. But, I think that's fine. If you draw it, it wins for you. If not, your opponents have less things they're willing to give you from activations. I don't see the downside in running more cards they don't want to give you. I would also consider Vraska. Her first ability is possible creature removal. Her second is awesome. And her final will let you take down more than one opponent which may be necessary
More testing tonight. Tried out a store I hadn't been to in a while that has an EDH night, and then some games with friends. Overall it went pretty well, I won 3/4 of the games but most of my opponents had a much smaller card pool, to say the least.
Game 1 was kind of ridiculous. Vs talrand and Brago, I would have obliterated except that (in part due to my misplay) my commander got tucked, in addition to Brago who I tucked in retaliation. He spent most of the game doing a lot of nothing without his commander, while I spent turn after turn after turn digging through my deck with LFTL and cycling lands, and talrand slowly chipped away at Brago's health. Finally I hit my commander and decimated the game in short order.
Game 2 talrand switched into Drana, who tutored a ton but somehow never found anything legitimately dangerous. Countered some crucial reanimation and blew up the board a few times with ostone and deed, which pretty much took Brago out of the game. In 1v1 vs drana I went for the strip mine lock with mists to protect the life total while I chipped away with unblockable commander. Felt kinda bad about it.
Game 3 switched to playing friends. Held off on the commander to watch them fight it out, dropped a deed and proceeded to never use it, then dropped my commander once they were both a bit spent along with training grounds and wrecked with CA. Random note: when faced with a lot of removal and counters, people will often tend to make pretty bad decisions, like giving you a tutor or a powerful piece of ramp over them. Works for me.
Game 4 both my friends agreed I was being way to smug and ganged up on me. I made a crucial misplay by running out my prophet into a PTE (didn't see the untapped white) which took me pretty well out of the game thanks to being tapped out on turn 6. I almost managed to stabilize at the last minute once it was clear I was screwed and was able to finally turn them against each other a bit, but a burn spell finished me off, although I did decide the victor by throwing all my hate at the person who took me out. In retrospect, though, I'm kind of fine with this deck losing to a 2v1 situation. This deck's goal is to avoid being in that situation in the first place. If I had still won the 2v1, it would have justified their aggression and basically only proven that I can win because my cards are better. The goal of this deck is to win because it plays cleverly with politics, avoids drawing hate, keeps the table controlled, and finally swoops in at the last minute to secure the win, not simply wins via brute force. If I wanted to win via brute force control, I'd play child of alara. That thing wins Xv1s like a boss.
Alright, specific card notes:
Spell crumple I discounted at first since I liked Hinder going to the grave first, but honestly I think it might belong anyway. This deck likes long games so commanders can be a real annoyance sometimes, and that kind of nasty hate that can dismantle a deck is great if you can identify your problematic enemies.
Memory lapse (and remand) are interesting because you can put a devastating spell out of play for a turn, so that player becomes the punching bag for a turn. But on the other hand, I generally would rather counter something that hurts me specifically, and no one is going to go after someone countering a spell that targets me specifically. Still, it's a cute idea and probably deserves testing.
The other counters I don't like that much. Dissipate is ok but I don't think it's relevant often enough to warrant the extra mana for exile. Life loss is basically worthless so Undermine doesn't do anything for me.
Maelstrom pulse was definitely considered, but I do vastly prefer instants to sorceries. I think it depends how you want to play the deck. It's definitely a good card.
Malicious affliction I like. I think it'll probably end up coming in for another piece of removal that I dislike more. I hate that stupid nonblack clause though.
Reckless spite I like less than malicious affliction, but it's also pretty strong.
Spite/Malice I think is too expensive, but I do like the flexibility.
Ghastly Demise is too conditional imo. Nonblack clause is annoying, and it can't kill anything early, and grave hate blows it out...I just don't think we need something that requires that much setup.
Song of the Dryads is in the same boat as maelstrom pulse, but I do love its ability to take a commander out. On the other hand, unlike tuck it motivates that player to kill you to make the enchantment go away, which is bad. In consideration but I want to keep the deck as instant-speed as possible for the moment.
BSZ is possible, I like wipes that leave my commander alive. I don't like that it costs so much at sorcery speed, though, and also it means my commander can't attack or block, which is actually kind of relevant. Ugin is in a similar boat except that it does leave my commander alone, so it's definitely a lot stronger imo. Kind of unlikely to get recurred, but an option for sure.
So far draw power hasn't been a big issue, and I'm not thrilled with most traditional draw options in this deck. Also I love running chains here. Thus far, LFTL and crucible have been my main CA engines, outside of my commander of course.
All sun's dawn is pretty cute, but sorcery speed makes me dislike it and I doubt I'd ever get it back (not that this makes it bad). Late-game it seems great, but early game showing off that I'm about to load up 3 counters/removal/etc into my hand and passing the turn seems like an invitation to get the crap beat out of me. I'd rather keep up the mana.
Reap and sow I don't think I have any nonbasics I like enough to spend 4 mana on. Plus it's a sorcery. I love it in Child of Alara to hit a sac outlet, but here, meh.
Psychatog, Gin, Vorinclex, and Dralnu all feel a bit clunky to me for this sort of deck. Less so for Gin and Psychatog since psychatog is cheap, gin has flash, and neither of them need to wait a turn to untap. Psychatog is probably the one I like the most since he won't be dead (and by the time I can cast Gin I'm probably feeling fine already), but I don't see wanting to cut myself off of answers in the grave unless it's down to 1v1 or something. But it's definitely interesting, merits testing. My general goal is to avoid having scary permanents on the field, though, since that just means I'll end up drawing all the hate, and I want that hate directed at other people.
runechanter's pike and empyrial plate both seems unnecessary. Early, I don't want to make my commander a threat. Late, I don't care about his damage because I've already won by controlling the board.
Muddle the mixture is definitely pretty sweet. I tend to keep tutors lower than ideal when building a deck because I want to experiment with as many functional cards as possible. I think it might go in over entomb, though, entomb can be pretty dead at points in the game.
Vraska is cool as a pw since she defends herself. On the other hand, as a wincon I don't like her. She calls too much attention to herself. +ing and -ing her could work without drawing too much ire, but it's also still at sorcery speed and she's expensive, and I'm not sure how well I can defend her after casting her prior to turn 10, and +ing her without additional removal oftentimes means she just kills some used up etb creatures or something. I may give her a shot later but for now it's a no.
So far, I love your build. I'm lacking a few cards from it (duals, chains, mana crypt, mana drain, stronghold, hollow, entomb), but, there's a few other things I want to try.
My playgroup gets bored with supergrindy control decks, so I was thinking of a couple of wincons like Bribery, Villainous Wealth, Rise of the Dark Realms to fit the Sultai flavor of using the enemy's strengths against them.
Dark Deal seems like a decent, cheap card that won't really hurt us much due to the recursion engine general along with hurting other control decks by robbing them of a good, sculpted hand.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All also seems good to push on through spells if we're having trouble with another control player (or ensuring we counter a combo about to go off without them interfering with our interference).
I'd also like to see how your deck does against a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck if you have a friend who plays that in your group.
I present the first sultai control commander:
You might think there are other sultai control legends. But you'd be wrong - all the other sultai commanders are fundamentally unsuited to helm control decks. Here's why:
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: in order to trigger her ability, you have to be running a significant number of creatures. Guess what card type really sucks when you're trying to react to enemy threats efficiently and control the board?
Vorosh, the Hunter: this guy is just boring. Nothing specifically prevents you from playing him as control, but he just kinda sucks. And he doesn't help control in any crucial way.
Damia, Sage of Stone: (1) She costs too much (2) She's a hate magnet, something you don't want when playing control unless you're about to win (3) She works best when you're dumping your hand. Control decks do not dump their hand.
Mimeoplasm: He works okay as a control commander, but he runs into the same problem as Sidisi, and generally he wants a bunch of card slots dedicated to synergizing with him to really get your money's worth, most of which are not good for control. And he also has the Damia problem of drawing hate.
So, Tasigur? Tasigur is the real freaking deal. I'm sure people will build boring old ramp-draw-bomb decks with him, but they'll always be fighting against his nature. Your opponents don't WANT to give you bombs, they don't WANT to give you ramp. You'd have to exile cards from your own graveyard to force them to give you want you want - and even then, Tasigur can throw a wrench in the works by dumping something you don't want into your grave when you activate him. But if you play him as control - asking one opponent to give you removal or a counterspell to stop a mutually-detrimental bomb from another opponent, you can work not against him, but WITH him. You can use him to pit the table against itself, and destroy your enemies one at a time, using the game's most undervalued resource: your opponents.
Ok, enough squee. Here's the decklist I've put together.
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Removal (20)
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Into the Roil
1 Wipe Away
1 Submerge
1 Capsize
1 Spin into Myth
1 Far // Away
1 Domineering Will
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
1 Beast Within
1 Putrefy
1 Sultai Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Pongify
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Silence the Believers
1 Tragic Slip
Wipes (4)
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Cyclonic Rift
Counters (10)
1 Trickbind
1 Rewind
1 Hinder
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Voidslime
1 Cryptic Command
1 Stifle
1 Arcane Denial
1 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Entomb
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Teachings
Recursion (3)
1 Memory Plunder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
Ramp (7)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Burgeoning
1 Exploration
1 Training Grounds
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Seedborn Muse
Stax (2)
1 Torpor Orb
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
Draw (1)
1 Fact or Fiction
Discard/Tutor/??? (1)
1 Head Games
Protection (1)
1 Constant Mists
Lands (43)
9 fetches
3 duals
3 shocks
3 cyclers
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Flooded Grove
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Opal Palace
1 Tolaria West
1 reliquary tower
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Tragic Slip: 4.0
The preponderance of removal in this deck makes it fairly easy to get the morbid, but it also has few creatures of its own to sacrifice. The low cost and ability to kill indestructibles make this a strong creature-only removal spell nevertheless.
Hero's Downfall: 3.0
The ability to his planeswalkers, which is otherwise fairly difficult for this deck, makes this a strong card despite the relatively high cost.
Into the Roil: 2.5
Hitting non-creature permanents makes this useful in its flexibility, and the option of casting it without cantrip makes it fairly cheap when necessary. However it can get tiresome to get this back into your hand repeatedly as it doesn't solve problems permanently unless they're tokens.
Wipe away: 2.0
Very effective at breaking combos, however it's expensive and can get pretty clunky to recur with Tasigur. I would try to hold this in your hand unless it's necessary to cast it.
Submerge: 3.5
This has a fairly high chance of being totally free, which is outstanding, it can get around indestructibility, and it's easy to tuck commanders in response to a shuffle. When it's not free, it's okay, but clunky. When things get down to 1v1, locking down enemy draws is pretty powerful so you don't get surprised by a lucky topdeck.
capsize: 4.0
With the amount of ramp this deck generates, Capsize is a strong way to use it, protecting your own critical permanents and getting rid of theirs. With seedborn or Prophet this gets pretty out of control and can be used to lock someone out of lands while you kill the other player with Tasigur.
Spin into Myth: 3.5
If we had access to white this might not make the cut, but here it's our only reliable tuck spell for commanders on the field. This makes it a great spell to shut down someone who's threatening to overwhelm the table, to hold as ultimate retaliation, or to use once you're down to a 1v1 game to lock down your last opponent. Don't forget that it fateseals their topdeck as well, which either lets you know that their topdeck is dead or gets rid of a serious threat.
Far // Away: 3.5
This deck needs ways to interact with hexproof commanders, and this is a pretty good way to do it. The cheap bounce is also nice to have access too, and the all-around flexibility makes up for the highish cost.
Domineering will: 4.5
This card is an incredible blowout for 4 mana. This card has the capability to balance the tables all on its own, and it works oh-so-much-better with collusion. It's not as strong in a combo-centric game, but even then you can probably convince someone to attack you while you steal another player's critical creatures and throw them under the bus.
Victim of Night: 4.0
No muss, no fuss, 1 creature dead for 2 mana. With a good base this is pretty easy to cast, and black tends to be less valuable anyway since you can't activate Tasigur with it.
Go for the Throat: 4.0
Better than victim of night if your mana is weaker, but the restriction tends to be more relevant. Staple black removal.
Beast within: 5.0
Possibly my favorite removal spell. Anything dead - anything - for 3 mana. Quite the deal. This should be an auto-include in any control deck that can run it.
Putrefy: 4.0
As far as flexible removal goes, this is quite strong, and 3 mana is pretty reasonable for killing 2 of the most dangerous permanent types.
Sultai Charm: 4.0
The inability to kill most commanders drags on this a lot, but it's very close to a beast within sans beast token otherwise. The draw mode is mostly useless but at least it means it's never dead.
Abrupt Decay: 3.0
This will always have a reasonable target, so don't worry about it being dead very often. It's not the most thrilling thing to get back over and over, but the uncounterability is nice to have.
Pongify/Rapid Hybridization: 4.5
One blue to kill a creature is phenomenal. The token is a small downside when your commander is a 4/5.
dismember: 4.0
The life cost can be somewhat painful, but luckily it's optional, and the flexibility here is great. -5/-5 kills most any combo-tasting creature, but won't necessarily deal with the biggest beaters.
Murderous Cut: 4.5
Cut is not only a very efficient removal spell at just B, it's also a great way to thin your grave before activating Tasigur. It gets a little less exciting on multiple recursions once your graveyard gets thin, but it's still one of the best removal available for this deck.
Silence the Believers: 3.5
Silence is on the more expensive end of this deck's removal, but while it's not great for early-game it gets nutty in the late-game when you can exile multiple targets at once. Also, exiling is fairly hard to come by so it's worth the cost.
Wipes
Oblivion Stone: 4.0
Oblivion stone is the gold standard for wipes in any color. It's much better than disk for coming in untapped, however you do need to be careful that it doesn't get killed while you're tapped out. In the late-game, fate counters can be pretty clutch, and don't forget that you can regenerate through it with yavimaya hollow.
Pernicious Deed: 4.0
This can frequently be used as an o-stone that spares Tasigur, however it does have the downside of killing high-cmc threats. But that's what removal is for, no?
Toxic Deluge: 4.0
Being able to control this to leave Tasigur alive is great, however like deed it's not ideal for killing the really expensive stuff. Kills hexproof indestructibles in a pinch though.
cyclonic rift: 5.0
Leaves your stuff untouched while getting of everything else. It's not as OP here as in other decks, but it's still one of the format's defining cards.
This is a tricky deck to make and to look at, so here's a few of the thoughts that went into it to make sense of the madness.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This deck also starkly lacks any means of winning the game. I understand wanting to play a control deck, but a 4/5 will just not go the distance on its own. It's a 6-turn clock, per player. There's only so much fighting you can anticipate your opponents to do to each other. You also lack any reliable means to allow a player to combo off without affecting you, which is just about the only scenario where a dearth of wincons is suitable.
My Blog About It
Spell burst seems too expensive and inefficient. All my spells have functional buyback anyway with my commander, I don't need to spend a million mana to keep a bad counter.
The commander IS the engine. He turns all the "one-offs" into repeatable loops. That's kind of the whole point. More expensive, engine-type cards are unnecessary, as are graveyard -reducing cards since my opponents should always want (or be made to want) to put into my hand what I want them to. If they don't, I've clearly chosen the wrong opponent. Loaming shaman (or something similar) might be necessary to recover my graveyard if I go too deep though, and act as grave hate. Reito lantern I love in Zirilan but here? I could practically activate my commander an entire additional time, and just get the card into my hand instead of on the bottom of the deck.
I only have to kill 1 person, so a 4/5 can get there in a pinch. Phelddagrif has slain many an opponent. His lack of evasion is a bit of a problem, but on the plus side, I get to use the same tagline I did when I played Phelddagrif - "the only thing in this deck that can kill you is the commander itself..."
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
What about Sultai Ascendancy? Controling your draws and filling the yard at the same time seems pretty good to me. Also I see the Mana Drain, but what about Plasm Capture? I know it is harder to cast, but the extra colored mana seems pretty useful in this deck.
Sultai ascendancy is a maybe, I've never been a big fan of it, though. It has a bit of anti-synergy here as well, in that if I don't want a card and dump it, then it's a potential target for my opponents to put into my hand. Of course we're trying to use politics to get what we want, but I think I'd still much prefer phyrexian arena or something.
Plasm capture wouldn't be a high pick for me generally because of the high cost, but I'm probably trying to keep a bunch of mana open for his ability anyway so it's probably one of the better options.
Thinking about ramp, I think Beware is right, although I don't want to run single-shot ramp like artifacts or three visits - but burgeoning and exploration (and maybe oracle) work well with lftl and crucible, and prophet and seedborn muse let me keep answers open around the clock while also fueling my commander.
I also think I'll kick up the number of tutors that hit intuition when I get the real decklist together. intuition for lftl + sweet land + exploration (using the commander to hopefully eventually get by exploration?) could be a pretty sweet play.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I do think you are relying on your opponents a little too much. I understand the appeal of never giving them a good option, but you will still want ways to alter the variance. Relic of Progenitus is a great example of a card that does that while also supplying additional utility. It's also a card that will frequently be given to you when given the option which can certainly work in the control deck's favor. Library manipulation is also a good way to get it done, the problem being is they will frequently be what you are given when you activate Golden Fang. Scroll Rack may be good enough.
My Blog About It
Krosan Reclamation or Memory's Journey could be nice to help card selection and can synergize with a tutor suite.
You should look into other flashback cards as well. Deep Analysis, Flash of Insight, and Mystical Teachings come to mind as good options.
mesmeric orb: too much mill. This isn't karador, I don't need a million cards in the grave, and I don't want to fuel other decks.
Not really that into cards that exile other cards from my grave, or put them back in my deck, or control my topdeck pre-activation, or whatever. I'm not trying to force them to put combo pieces in my hand, the idea is that (1) none of the cards in the deck are ever dead (or as close as possible), and (2) if I pick the right opponent, he'll give me the card that I want.
deep analysis is a sorcery so no. If it's not an instant, it better do a really good job of justifying its existence. Flash of insight is ok but kind of overpriced. Mystical teachings, as ever, is solid. It's in one of these piles of cards I'm making the deck from.
I'm not sure what the wincon is for the deck yet. commander damage seems like a slog without evasion, but maybe I could throw in shizo, death's storehouse and try to get the job done. Lab man is an option I guess, but I don't like relying too much on something that could get exiled pretty easily (and could also easily be a dead card).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Honestly, though, this guy is one of the trickiest legends to build, ever. I'm going to want a lot of testing before I'm at all satisfied with this list.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
CURRENT DECKS
WUBRG Child of Alara, Pauper Dreamcrusher GRBUW | BGU Muldrotha, Dreamcrusher REDUX UGB | WUB Dreamcrusher Pt. III: Nevinyrral's Disco BUW
Firstly, building without quiet speculation I've only got 1 flashback spell I believe. That means, in order to include quiet speculation, you're weakening 2 other cards (assuming that my list is perfect, which obviously it's not, but still I doubt I'd want any flashback spells over what I have), plus replacing a card with quiet speculation. And if you don't draw quiet speculation, that weakening is all for naught.
Secondly, there's a real decent chance of drawing/milling the flashback cards before quiet speculation, which means when you DO cast it, it's a lot worse. That's a lot less significant if it were something you tutored for frequently to cast ASAP, but...
Thirdly, it's almost strictly worse than intuition. Or at least, it's just a lot worse than intuition.
And fourthly, even if you cast it and put three flashback spells in your grave...it's going to be a prime target for your opponents to return to your hand when you activate your commander, which is going to suck if it has no more targets. So now you have to run a LOT of flashback spells, and I just don't see that ever being worth it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Can you use Tasigurs delve ability to pay for the commander tax (the paying of 2 extra each time you cast him from the command zone)?
Also you probably want to play the cards that can be played from exile, Torrent Elemental, and Misthollow Griffin
For some reason I want to play Marang-River Prowler here too, because it seems like an alternate wincon for you, as you can push some damage around the board and/or pump it.
Yes.
However, after I managed to set up intuition for my LFTL package I played 1+ lands for the rest of the game, and managed to dismantle the serious, long-term threats while keeping out of the limelight, but holding up answers to anything dangerous to come along. Tasigur drew removal the first time he came down, but the second time I was more careful and made sure there were more pressing concerns on the table. Then I got seedborn muse online and starting activating Tasigur to insanity, and basically locked down the game. Eventually I decided my best wincon was to commander damage one of the remaining players, while strip-locking the other one, but needless to say the game ended before then when both players realized they were horrendously screwed by Tasigur getting back 12+ cards per cycle, nearly all of which were highly relevant - either ramping me into more shenanigans, locking down options to hurt me, or straight-up counter/removal. The game lasted 2.5 hours, and despite everyone going into it with the intention to deny me the win, I still won.
I give this deck a 5/5. Tasigur is the real deal.
On top of just being strong, he is INSANELY difficult to play correctly. Like, possibly the hardest to play commander ever printed. Just deciding what to delve requires intense consideration, not to mention every activation of his ability has to take into account many different factors when deciding when you activate it and who you choose to choose. Regardless whether he's the best sultai commander (he gets my vote), I love how complex he is to play. He's a real winner in my book.
Oracle I think should go in, Courser I don't think provides enough value. Ramp was definitely useful, but just playing off the top alone isn't that exciting, I get plenty of lands with crucible/lftl.
torrent elemental and misthollow griffin are both way too vanilla to consider, no matter how invincible they are. Same for river prowler. My wincons are commander damage or a hard lock.
If you want to include Villainous Wealth, go for it. I don't think it'll hurt your deck much. It will be a dead card early, though, and you'll never get it back to your hand via tasigur. I'd rather win via attrition, since once this deck is going off it doesn't stop.
Abrupt decay kills loads of stuff, and it's cheap. I doubt I'll ever feel bad about running it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
First of all, let me say that it is seriously very hard to determine what makes a good card for this build. Going in I was kind of shooting in the dark, having played it once I think I have a somewhat better idea. But I'm sure I'll have to tune it a lot.
That said, I'm pretty sure sultai ascendancy is just bad for this deck. For one thing, it's just not that great to begin with, even in an ideal circumstance. For a second thing, while it can feed Tasigur's initial cost, it's also pretty antisynergistic with his ability. See a useless card on top of your deck? If you leave it on top, you're wasting your draw. If you put it in the grave, you're wasting his next ability activation (unless you can convince someone to give you something better because of an in-game circumstance). If you put it second from the top, you're making your ascendancy much less useful. And finally, and most damning for me - and this ties into what makes a good card for this deck - it's a pretty terrible late-game card, and this deck REALLY wants to avoid those. I saw 80% of my deck last game, so a nearly-dead late-game draw like sultai ascendancy WILL end up coming back to my hand and annoying me at some point. When I played the deck, once I was out in the lead my opponents were squirming over nearly every activation of his ability because all the cards were hugely relevant. Sultai ascendancy frequently will not be. It's only "good" in my starting hand, but it will hurt me almost every game.
Ramp suffers from the same issue - cards like sakura-tribe elder, normally pretty good, are horrible in this deck because they're weak late-game draws, and you don't want your opponent to neutralize Tasigur's activation. The ramp I DO like is the permanent variety, with an effect that has significant impact over the entire game - exploration, burgeoning, seedborn muse, etc. So I might put in mana reflection or oracle of mul daya, but I'm never putting in sorcery ramp. The deck doesn't really want or need early-game ramp anyway, it's all about acceleration in the late game when you've outed yourself as the primary threat at the table.
wincons I dislike, at least the traditional big fat wincons. Firstly, they clog up your hand in the early game. Secondly, they just won't get returned to your hand by tasigur unless the table wills it, which is probably never going to happen. That doesn't really make them worse, but it neutralizes their value a lot since this deck doesn't draw many cards normally (hence chains' presence). And thirdly, and most importantly, you just really don't need them. This deck's goal is to lock down the entire table with removal and counterspells and bury them under a mountain of CA. Once that's accomplished, winning is trivial. I guess maybe if you suggested a particular wincon that worked well in the deck I might consider it, but just a generic idea, I'm opposed and I don't think they're necessary.
Planeswalkers may or may not be defendable for this deck. Depends a lot on how ok the table is with the "if you raise a hand to me, you lose the hand" method of politics. Certainly it'll be hard to do that if you're about to ult tamiyo. For this deck, I think the goal is roughly to try to keep just enough incremental advantage to keep up with, and control the table, without getting in the lead and drawing hate, and then once the table is pretty under-control, going into insane ramp mode and trying to lock everyone down. So are planeswalkers necessary for keeping that incremental advantage, or can tasigur do it on his own? Not sure, requires more testing. Definitely they have the same issue has wincons in that they likely will never be returned to your hand. My gut says that I'd rather run stuff like phyrexian arena before I run a planeswalker in this deck, though. Are there any in particular you think would do well?
Deadbridge chant was in my potential pile until I realized it's absolute garbage in this deck. Unless you can control your graveyard, or you're running a lot of creatures, it's basically just a 6-mana phyrexian arena without the life loss, where your opponents get to see what you return. Tasigur provides a little graveyard control with his delve, but besides that I really have no grave control, and I only have a few creatures in the whole deck (and the timing of playing them is pretty crucial and shouldn't be done too early), so I don't see it happening.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
- Counters: Spell Crumple, Undermine, Dissipate, Memory Lapse
- 1-for-1 Removal: Maelstrom Pulse, Malicious Affliction, Reckless Spite, Spite // Malice, Ghastly Demise, Song of the Dryads (you're running a lot of bounce which seems generally mediocre in commander control, so I hope some of these fit the bill)
- Wipes: Damnation is actually "just okay" in this list, but Black Sun's Zenith seems like a good include as would Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
Additionally, it sort of freaks me out how little draw power you have. I'd consider some other solid card drawing spell, or maybe Muddle the Mixture since it transmutes to LftL which is your primary draw engine.
Hope that helps!
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Next, i know you are against sorcery ramp, but what about reap and sow, it not only fetches non-basics, but can also remove lands, which may be more useful than other sorcery ramp spells. Also you have expressed some dislike on the idea of removing cards from your graveyard slowly with cards like reito lantern, but what about Psychatog? He does it repeatedly for free and boosts himself at the same time, which may make him worth considering. Also late game, if you have seen 80% of your deck, he can swing for 40+ damage by himself. Also he has great artwork (:
Third, your thoughts on the praetors, especially Jin-gitaxias and Vorinclex? They feel very controllish, and could help lock down that last opponent, and Jin has flash... Finally, i know he is risky but Dralnu, lich lord seems like he could be very useful in this deck, especially when the last enemy isn't giving you what you need. Worst case, you have the ability to bounce/kill him if you need to.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Game 1 was kind of ridiculous. Vs talrand and Brago, I would have obliterated except that (in part due to my misplay) my commander got tucked, in addition to Brago who I tucked in retaliation. He spent most of the game doing a lot of nothing without his commander, while I spent turn after turn after turn digging through my deck with LFTL and cycling lands, and talrand slowly chipped away at Brago's health. Finally I hit my commander and decimated the game in short order.
Game 2 talrand switched into Drana, who tutored a ton but somehow never found anything legitimately dangerous. Countered some crucial reanimation and blew up the board a few times with ostone and deed, which pretty much took Brago out of the game. In 1v1 vs drana I went for the strip mine lock with mists to protect the life total while I chipped away with unblockable commander. Felt kinda bad about it.
Game 3 switched to playing friends. Held off on the commander to watch them fight it out, dropped a deed and proceeded to never use it, then dropped my commander once they were both a bit spent along with training grounds and wrecked with CA. Random note: when faced with a lot of removal and counters, people will often tend to make pretty bad decisions, like giving you a tutor or a powerful piece of ramp over them. Works for me.
Game 4 both my friends agreed I was being way to smug and ganged up on me. I made a crucial misplay by running out my prophet into a PTE (didn't see the untapped white) which took me pretty well out of the game thanks to being tapped out on turn 6. I almost managed to stabilize at the last minute once it was clear I was screwed and was able to finally turn them against each other a bit, but a burn spell finished me off, although I did decide the victor by throwing all my hate at the person who took me out. In retrospect, though, I'm kind of fine with this deck losing to a 2v1 situation. This deck's goal is to avoid being in that situation in the first place. If I had still won the 2v1, it would have justified their aggression and basically only proven that I can win because my cards are better. The goal of this deck is to win because it plays cleverly with politics, avoids drawing hate, keeps the table controlled, and finally swoops in at the last minute to secure the win, not simply wins via brute force. If I wanted to win via brute force control, I'd play child of alara. That thing wins Xv1s like a boss.
Alright, specific card notes:
Spell crumple I discounted at first since I liked Hinder going to the grave first, but honestly I think it might belong anyway. This deck likes long games so commanders can be a real annoyance sometimes, and that kind of nasty hate that can dismantle a deck is great if you can identify your problematic enemies.
Memory lapse (and remand) are interesting because you can put a devastating spell out of play for a turn, so that player becomes the punching bag for a turn. But on the other hand, I generally would rather counter something that hurts me specifically, and no one is going to go after someone countering a spell that targets me specifically. Still, it's a cute idea and probably deserves testing.
The other counters I don't like that much. Dissipate is ok but I don't think it's relevant often enough to warrant the extra mana for exile. Life loss is basically worthless so Undermine doesn't do anything for me.
Maelstrom pulse was definitely considered, but I do vastly prefer instants to sorceries. I think it depends how you want to play the deck. It's definitely a good card.
Malicious affliction I like. I think it'll probably end up coming in for another piece of removal that I dislike more. I hate that stupid nonblack clause though.
Reckless spite I like less than malicious affliction, but it's also pretty strong.
Spite/Malice I think is too expensive, but I do like the flexibility.
Ghastly Demise is too conditional imo. Nonblack clause is annoying, and it can't kill anything early, and grave hate blows it out...I just don't think we need something that requires that much setup.
Song of the Dryads is in the same boat as maelstrom pulse, but I do love its ability to take a commander out. On the other hand, unlike tuck it motivates that player to kill you to make the enchantment go away, which is bad. In consideration but I want to keep the deck as instant-speed as possible for the moment.
BSZ is possible, I like wipes that leave my commander alive. I don't like that it costs so much at sorcery speed, though, and also it means my commander can't attack or block, which is actually kind of relevant. Ugin is in a similar boat except that it does leave my commander alone, so it's definitely a lot stronger imo. Kind of unlikely to get recurred, but an option for sure.
So far draw power hasn't been a big issue, and I'm not thrilled with most traditional draw options in this deck. Also I love running chains here. Thus far, LFTL and crucible have been my main CA engines, outside of my commander of course.
All sun's dawn is pretty cute, but sorcery speed makes me dislike it and I doubt I'd ever get it back (not that this makes it bad). Late-game it seems great, but early game showing off that I'm about to load up 3 counters/removal/etc into my hand and passing the turn seems like an invitation to get the crap beat out of me. I'd rather keep up the mana.
Reap and sow I don't think I have any nonbasics I like enough to spend 4 mana on. Plus it's a sorcery. I love it in Child of Alara to hit a sac outlet, but here, meh.
Psychatog, Gin, Vorinclex, and Dralnu all feel a bit clunky to me for this sort of deck. Less so for Gin and Psychatog since psychatog is cheap, gin has flash, and neither of them need to wait a turn to untap. Psychatog is probably the one I like the most since he won't be dead (and by the time I can cast Gin I'm probably feeling fine already), but I don't see wanting to cut myself off of answers in the grave unless it's down to 1v1 or something. But it's definitely interesting, merits testing. My general goal is to avoid having scary permanents on the field, though, since that just means I'll end up drawing all the hate, and I want that hate directed at other people.
runechanter's pike and empyrial plate both seems unnecessary. Early, I don't want to make my commander a threat. Late, I don't care about his damage because I've already won by controlling the board.
Muddle the mixture is definitely pretty sweet. I tend to keep tutors lower than ideal when building a deck because I want to experiment with as many functional cards as possible. I think it might go in over entomb, though, entomb can be pretty dead at points in the game.
Vraska is cool as a pw since she defends herself. On the other hand, as a wincon I don't like her. She calls too much attention to herself. +ing and -ing her could work without drawing too much ire, but it's also still at sorcery speed and she's expensive, and I'm not sure how well I can defend her after casting her prior to turn 10, and +ing her without additional removal oftentimes means she just kills some used up etb creatures or something. I may give her a shot later but for now it's a no.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My playgroup gets bored with supergrindy control decks, so I was thinking of a couple of wincons like Bribery, Villainous Wealth, Rise of the Dark Realms to fit the Sultai flavor of using the enemy's strengths against them.
Dark Deal seems like a decent, cheap card that won't really hurt us much due to the recursion engine general along with hurting other control decks by robbing them of a good, sculpted hand.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All also seems good to push on through spells if we're having trouble with another control player (or ensuring we counter a combo about to go off without them interfering with our interference).
I'd also like to see how your deck does against a Derevi, Empyrial Tactician deck if you have a friend who plays that in your group.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch