Unpopular Opinion: I think Treasure Cruise should be unbanned in Modern. It was an incredibly powerful card that made Modern the most fun it's been in years. I think public opinion was that it was very powerful, but ultimately not format warping. Until it got banned. Then suddenly it became conventional wisdom that the card was the most busted thing to be printed in years. But if you look back, many of the opinions of the card, and its effect on the format, were much more positive during it's brief tenure in Modern. Obviously some people hated it from the start, but it wasn't until its banning that everyone seemed to retroactively believe that it was the most broken card since JtMS.
Delver-Cruise wasn't unbeatable, but it pushed decks out of the format. If you go back and read deck threads in Competitive from that period, you'll see a LOT of people worried that the deck they've played for years just doesn't seem viable anymore.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Seems like everyone is looking to the B&R list every release now with Modern in mind...unban this or ban that. I think this is a sign Modern is both very interesting and in a VERY bad place right now. Wizards may have been a little too heavy-handed with this format for its own good.
I've stated this before. Good answers to cards creates diversity. For instance, why is hero's downfall good in standard? Because it answers planeswalkers and creatures. With enough good options out there, the format will be able to handle Jace and other cards currently banned in Modern. It is sad that any time a really good card gets printed, it gets banned. deathrite shaman banned, any sort of decent library manipulation banned. I'm of the mindset that answers and quality threats are better than bannings. Bannings take away from the game. There are only a selective few cards that really truly need banning. I don't think Jace would ruin Modern.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
I'm really tired of people who feel the need to misrepresent facts in order to support their opinion. (Welcome to the internet, I know)
Jace was not emergency banned in standard. He was banned during a normal update to the B&R list. He wasn't some stupid massive mistake either. Half the time he was in standard he was barely even good enough. Jund with Bloodbraid Elf was still significantly better than Jace decks for most of the time in standard. It wasn't until after rotation that Jace became a problem and only in the last 2/3rds of the format when they printed Sword of Feast and Famine to go with Stoneforge Mystic. Jace was never the real problem, Stoneforge Mystic was. It's why Jace sees play as a 2-3 of in a few Legacy decks but Stoneforge has decks warped around it (Stoneblade, Jeskai Delver, Maverick in yonder days, Death and Taxes). All that in combination with the specific environment that the decks were in during that bad standard were the contributing factors to dominance of Caw Blade. It was absolutely never just Jace.
I've never understood how people can forget he was in Standard for an entire year before he was even a tier 1 card.
I apologize if I was unclear - I know that Treasure Cruise has been loathed by many since it was printed, my point was addressing how public opinion as a whole shifted once the card was banned. There were many, many voices saying it should be banned from the start. There were also many, many voices saying that the card was fun and powerful, but not oppressive (and many voices that thought the card was unplayable trash, but that's a different matter entirely). After the banning, most of those supportive voices disappeared. I understand that. Wizards knows their game better than anyone, and if they thought the card needed to be banned, then it probably did. But I still can't shake the feeling that the opinions of those of us who enjoyed the card and didn't necessarily think it was a problem have been sort of invalidated in the public consciousness; it's the reason I felt obliged to preface my original post with a disclaimer that it was an unpopular opinion. It would not have been so controversial prior to the bannings.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
I think the problem with Treasure Cruise is comparable to the problem with Brainstorm-- it's so damn good that you pretty much have to play blue. It was so good that it was probably worth splashing for alone. That said, I dunno how I feel about it banned or unbanned. I believe "format-warping cards" are ones which every single deck has to run in order to be competitive. My case for the Modern banning of fetchlands in a nutshell.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
They will print whatever they think is fine for Standard
Let the banlist handle Modern and other formats. It's the right attitude.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Exactly. Unless the card is really necessary for Standard, I just don't think it's worth their trouble. Things occasionally fall through the cracks due to lack of testing, and interactions get missed, but I do think they'd like to avoid as many brand new cards being banned in their (Second) favorite constructed format as possible.
I'm really tired of people who feel the need to misrepresent facts in order to support their opinion. (Welcome to the internet, I know)
Jace was not emergency banned in standard. He was banned during a normal update to the BR list. He wasn't some stupid massive mistake either. Half the time he was in standard he was barely even good enough. Jund with Bloodbraid Elf was still significantly better than Jace decks for most of the time in standard. It wasn't until after rotation that Jace became a problem and only in the last 2/3rds of the format when they printed Sword of Feast and Famine to go with Stoneforge Mystic. Jace was never the real problem, Stoneforge Mystic was. It's why Jace sees play as a 2-3 of in a few Legacy decks but Stoneforge has decks warped around it (Stoneblade, Jeskai Delver, Maverick in yonder days, Death and Taxes). All that in combination with the specific environment that the decks were in during that bad standard were the contributing factors to dominance of Caw Blade. It was absolutely never just Jace.
I've never understood how people can forget he was in Standard for an entire year before he was even a tier 1 card.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Show me the source that supports that. Modern makes them more money than Limited. They aren't going to intentionslly break it.
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
I don't think Wizards made Treasure Cruise knowing how powerful it would be in Modern and older formats. This article says that Cruise was designed to emulate a bad Ancestral Recall and implies that they designed it with no regards about how weak (or strong) its power level was. (I personally believe that their "...but hey how hard can that be?" comment was sarcastic.)
Incredible how busted Treasure Cruise is.
Just shows that even after 20 years they still can't see and predict everything.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Show me the source that supports that. Modern makes them more money than Limited. They aren't going to intentionslly break it.
Maro has stated on his blog, repeatedly, that they are not going to let the older formats stop them from printing a card that would be fun in standard or limited, and that the purpose of the ban lists is to adjust for cards that are fine in standard but not older formats.
Oh, and this is obviously untrue. Every time a draft fires anywhere in the world, most of a box is sold for it. I personally open about a couple hundred booster packs a year in drafts and sealed because I'm exclusively a limited player, and I eventually sell/give away every card I open.
Standard and limited is what sells booster packs. Modern players are not going to buy boxes just for the purpose of hoping to open the few cards they need. They'll get them on the secondary market after the limited players churn through their packs.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Show me the source that supports that. Modern makes them more money than Limited. They aren't going to intentionslly break it.
Maro has stated on his blog, repeatedly, that they are not going to let the older formats stop them from printing a card that would be fun in standard or limited, and that the purpose of the ban lists is to adjust for cards that are fine in standard but not older formats.
They won't let it stop them, but they aren't going to print a card that they know breaks multiple formats and makes them lose money instead of tweaking the card. Treasure Cruise is no more fun in Standard than Dig Through Time is and it wouldn't hurt Limited at all if it had cost more colored mana.
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Show me the source that supports that. Modern makes them more money than Limited. They aren't going to intentionslly break it.
Maro has stated on his blog, repeatedly, that they are not going to let the older formats stop them from printing a card that would be fun in standard or limited, and that the purpose of the ban lists is to adjust for cards that are fine in standard but not older formats.
They won't let it stop them, but they aren't going to print a card that they know breaks multiple formats and makes them lose money instead of tweaking the card. Treasure Cruise is no more fun in Standard than Dig Through Time is and it wouldn't hurt Limited at all if it had cost more colored mana.
Why not? If it works for standard and limited, then its in their best interests to print it. Standard and limited is what drives the bus. I don't know why you seem to think that Wizards somehow makes a ton of money on modern.
I for one would love to see this proof that modern makes way more money than limited. I have no facts or evidence but I don't see how a format that literally requires selling a box to play can be less profitable that a nonrotating constructed format that only uses a few of each new cards in a set.
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Trying to make crappy pet cards work since 2002.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
Oh, and this is obviously untrue. Every time a draft fires anywhere in the world, most of a box is sold for it. I personally open about a couple hundred booster packs a year in drafts and sealed because I'm exclusively a limited player, and I eventually sell/give away every card I open.
Standard and limited is what sells booster packs. Modern players are not going to buy boxes just for the purpose of hoping to open the few cards they need. They'll get them on the secondary market after the limited players churn through their packs.
This. Wizards does not sell singles. Sure they make money off of modern masters but that is a new thing and was probably a very minor percentage of the money they made for the year.
Also, that's "100 Card Singleton," not "11 Card Singleton," but I personally would be much more interested in the latter format.
Well me and my friends quite often play singleton 100 with the modern cardpool (so nobody has to break the bank for the original duals). It is a fun format, if you want to play with good cards, which still aren't good enough for modern (like, say Baneslayer Angel) and you don't like the commander mechanic (I mean the free card via the command zone and the recasting).
But you are right - singleton was cast to the wayside supportwise by WotC, which is a shame.
Hey I top 8ed a modern PTQ with two baneslayers main. I think there is a lot more room for diversity in modern then it is given credit for.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
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I've stated this before. Good answers to cards creates diversity. For instance, why is hero's downfall good in standard? Because it answers planeswalkers and creatures. With enough good options out there, the format will be able to handle Jace and other cards currently banned in Modern. It is sad that any time a really good card gets printed, it gets banned. deathrite shaman banned, any sort of decent library manipulation banned. I'm of the mindset that answers and quality threats are better than bannings. Bannings take away from the game. There are only a selective few cards that really truly need banning. I don't think Jace would ruin Modern.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
*Sigh*
I'm really tired of people who feel the need to misrepresent facts in order to support their opinion. (Welcome to the internet, I know)
Jace was not emergency banned in standard. He was banned during a normal update to the B&R list. He wasn't some stupid massive mistake either. Half the time he was in standard he was barely even good enough. Jund with Bloodbraid Elf was still significantly better than Jace decks for most of the time in standard. It wasn't until after rotation that Jace became a problem and only in the last 2/3rds of the format when they printed Sword of Feast and Famine to go with Stoneforge Mystic. Jace was never the real problem, Stoneforge Mystic was. It's why Jace sees play as a 2-3 of in a few Legacy decks but Stoneforge has decks warped around it (Stoneblade, Jeskai Delver, Maverick in yonder days, Death and Taxes). All that in combination with the specific environment that the decks were in during that bad standard were the contributing factors to dominance of Caw Blade. It was absolutely never just Jace.
I've never understood how people can forget he was in Standard for an entire year before he was even a tier 1 card.
Well, actually Wizards did know they were printing a very powerful card that may need to be banned in some formats. Printing the card was not a mistake, because as a policy Wizards does not allow the older formats to stop them from printing a card. As long as its not broken in limited or standard, a card can be printed, and if its oppressive in older formats they'll act but limited and standard is always priority #1.
If Wizards ever bans a card from the standard format, then you can probably say they made a mistake with that card because they want to avoid ever doing that again.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Wizards still isn't going to print a card that they know will need to be banned in Modern if they can avoid it. Modern still is the second-most popular format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They will print whatever they think is fine for Standard
Let the banlist handle Modern and other formats. It's the right attitude.
Exactly. Unless the card is really necessary for Standard, I just don't think it's worth their trouble. Things occasionally fall through the cracks due to lack of testing, and interactions get missed, but I do think they'd like to avoid as many brand new cards being banned in their (Second) favorite constructed format as possible.
The video was intended to be a joke. A parody.
Of course they will. They flat-out said they could if it was fine in standard and limited. We don't run into this often anymore because usually something thats bad for modern is also going to be bad for standard, unless it requires graveyard shenanigans to abuse.
Show me the source that supports that. Modern makes them more money than Limited. They aren't going to intentionslly break it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Show me the source that says modern makes WOTC more money than limited.
I don't think Wizards made Treasure Cruise knowing how powerful it would be in Modern and older formats. This article says that Cruise was designed to emulate a bad Ancestral Recall and implies that they designed it with no regards about how weak (or strong) its power level was. (I personally believe that their "...but hey how hard can that be?" comment was sarcastic.)
Maro has stated on his blog, repeatedly, that they are not going to let the older formats stop them from printing a card that would be fun in standard or limited, and that the purpose of the ban lists is to adjust for cards that are fine in standard but not older formats.
Oh, and this is obviously untrue. Every time a draft fires anywhere in the world, most of a box is sold for it. I personally open about a couple hundred booster packs a year in drafts and sealed because I'm exclusively a limited player, and I eventually sell/give away every card I open.
Standard and limited is what sells booster packs. Modern players are not going to buy boxes just for the purpose of hoping to open the few cards they need. They'll get them on the secondary market after the limited players churn through their packs.
They won't let it stop them, but they aren't going to print a card that they know breaks multiple formats and makes them lose money instead of tweaking the card. Treasure Cruise is no more fun in Standard than Dig Through Time is and it wouldn't hurt Limited at all if it had cost more colored mana.
The response to "show me your source" is not "show me your source first". I will show you my proof when you show me yours.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Why not? If it works for standard and limited, then its in their best interests to print it. Standard and limited is what drives the bus. I don't know why you seem to think that Wizards somehow makes a ton of money on modern.
The response to "show me your source" is not "show me your source first". I will show you my proof when you show me yours.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm usually typing quickly at work or on my phone so I appolize from the crummy grammar
This. Wizards does not sell singles. Sure they make money off of modern masters but that is a new thing and was probably a very minor percentage of the money they made for the year.
Hey I top 8ed a modern PTQ with two baneslayers main. I think there is a lot more room for diversity in modern then it is given credit for.