Yes, you *can* win T2 if you have a perfect draw,
but the deck is very fragile and susceptible to disruption
(though it's incredibly fun and probably my favorite Modern deck).
Titan Bloom has been what it currently is for quite some time-
I don't see any need to cripple a Tier 2 "fun" deck.
While I have next to zero opinion on Modern as I consider it a horrendous format, this statement nonetheless makes me think back to Eggs....
Maybe I'm simply not knowledgeable about the format, as I care none for it. However, I feel Wizards' goal for Modern is to nix any self-respecting combo deck as a result of lack of desire to make a Force of Will-esque card Modern legal.
I love combo and hate to see related decks banned unless they are deemed unhealthy.....but from the start I have seen Modern as a spiral down "next ban" format, and I can only hope that my initial views as well as personal discontents are resolved through PROPER management of a ban list.
Wizards does it again by not banning things they said they didn't want in their pet format.
Come on dude. Look around. 50% of the Magic community is at summer camp, working at Subway, or trying aimlessly to get laid this summer. Nobody's home. Just passing the ban list announcement off to whoever's left in the office is all they need to do.
Some people do, and the main Modern combo decks (Twin, Tron, Bloom)
have been a healthy part of the meta for quite some time for a reason.
They're also *quite* a bit more interactive than Legacy combo decks.
You can always play Affinity, Infect, Jund/Junk, Jeskai Control, or Burn
if you want a non-combo deck that performs at least as well as the decks you so fear.
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As the owner of a Titan Bloom deck
...
Yes, you *can* win T2 if you have a perfect draw,
but the deck is very fragile and susceptible to disruption
Someone else did the math/observation so I take no responsibility for that. The deck plays a T2 Primeval Titan 20-25% of the time which is pretty close to a win, if not immediately then at least almost inevitably. Few decks have removal lined up to deal with a T2 titan and even if they do, and the Bloom player suspects it, they'll just use the first one's trigger to get another.
I agree that the T1 and T2 outright wins, which involve a close to perfect hand and Hive Mind rather than Primeval Titan is far more rare.
As for the deck being prone to disruption... it really isn't.
None of the actually played combo decks in Modern are, since the entire decks are dedicated towards digging out the combo.
The players of said decks often feel they are but that's mainly observation bias.
The deck definitely shouldn't exist, Modern as a format would be better if every card in the 75 (save the basic Forest I suppose) were on the banlist but to be fair the same thing could be said about every combo deck in the format so Titan Bloom isn't an unique snowflake by any means.
However, I feel Wizards' goal for Modern is to nix any self-respecting combo deck as a result of lack of desire to make a Force of Will-esque card Modern legal.
Here's the thing, that's one of the actual stated goals of the format - WotC just isn't delivering on said promise. Which is deeply unfair both to Magic players (who're forced to suffer through a large number of miserable games) and combo players (who get to cling onto the hope that their next pet deck will last longer).
As for Force of Will there's a couple of issues with such a "solution".
It does nothing for non-blue decks, which are the ones that really need the protection. This isn't Legacy, forcing everyone into blue is not acceptable.
Force of Will will be used to protect the combo decks more often than it will be to fight them, and those decks don't care about card disadvantage.
See Pact of Negation, a "free" counterspell that's only really played in the combo decks - because they don't care about the drawback.
I love combo and hate to see related decks banned unless they are deemed unhealthy.....but from the start I have seen Modern as a spiral down "next ban" format, and I can only hope that my initial views as well as personal discontents are resolved through PROPER management of a ban list.
Combo decks are unhealthy by definition.
Modern as a format have only existed in the "modern" era of Magic, where creature strategies are the norm, spells have been powered down, resource denial is a pipe dream and permission and removal have been reined in. One could argue the pros and cons of these fundamental changes to the core philosophy of the game, and here we frequently do, but there's no arguing with the fact.
Combo really doesn't have a place in this era of the game and thus, by extension, it doesn't belong in Modern.
Given that situation proper management of the banlist would mandate banning the combo decks, and a large number of cards overall.
It would lead to a more stable, fun and diverse format but WotC just isn't committing to this course of action.
As it is the banlist, for purposes of Modern at least, is only used to "shake up" the format before the Pro Tour. Cards are banned/unbanned not based on power level or format impact but to promote, or hold back, specific decks/strategies. Which is nonsense in both reasoning and effect, since people didn't want Modern as a Pro Tour format to watch new brews - they wanted it to watch some of the best players in the world play Modern.
To use one of the latest bans as an example... Birthing Pod were banned at a time when the card wasn't even used as a combo piece but just a value engine. It was banned because the deck it fueled where deemed to occupy a too large part of the metagame, conveniently ignoring the fact that the number of competitive midrange decks is severely limited by the large number of combo decks and linear aggressive strategies.
Yet they kept Splinter Twin around (mostly, I suspect, because banning Twin would force them to actually fix the format - since there'd be no hard counter to the combo decks), a card that definitely should have gotten the axe if Birthing Pod did. Nor did they consider the larger implications of a Pod ban, such as Green Sun's Zenith no longer belonging on the banlist.
Did you just say combo doesn't exist in the modern era, cus Jeskai ascendancy standard would disagree with you
Also, I'd argue no combo decks is far more unhealthy, wanna know why? Cus eventually you get to one creature deck that runs the biggest and best creatures. Let's also consider they don't let control really exist in modern, you need combo to have a varied format.
And prophet of kruphix somehow dodges the headman's axe in commander again. I will hope someone sees the light someday. The card is the worst thing to happen to multiplayer in the history of the game. And I am not being sarcastic.
And maybe they'll wise up and unban Balance for multiplayer-
I understand why it's too good for Legacy,
but it would be a much-needed tool to punish people who ramp overzealously.
I have been arguing for the unbanning of balance for years. "It costs two" seems to be the only arguement against it.
I don't believe for a second that it was even tested before being banned, nor has it ever been tested by the rules committee, because it takes sacrificing virgins to RNGesus to abuse the card in any way that actually wins you the game. 99/100 all it does is punish a player for casting Boundless Realms.
Yes, you *can* win T2 if you have a perfect draw,
but the deck is very fragile and susceptible to disruption
(though it's incredibly fun and probably my favorite Modern deck).
Titan Bloom has been what it currently is for quite some time-
I don't see any need to cripple a Tier 2 "fun" deck.
While I have next to zero opinion on Modern as I consider it a horrendous format, this statement nonetheless makes me think back to Eggs....
Maybe I'm simply not knowledgeable about the format, as I care none for it. However, I feel Wizards' goal for Modern is to nix any self-respecting combo deck as a result of lack of desire to make a Force of Will-esque card Modern legal.
I love combo and hate to see related decks banned unless they are deemed unhealthy.....but from the start I have seen Modern as a spiral down "next ban" format, and I can only hope that my initial views as well as personal discontents are resolved through PROPER management of a ban list.
I didn't quite catch that, you weren't clear. what's your opinion on modern?
This is funny to me. I guess someone really, really, really wanted Jaya Ballard to be sweet in TL, and now she is. Luckily no one around here has played the format in months.
Modern as a format have only existed in the "modern" era of Magic, where creature strategies are the norm, spells have been powered down, resource denial is a pipe dream and permission and removal have been reined in.
I appreciate your fundamental view of why the format always has and always will be miserable.
It's really not about creatures or not, it's about interaction and having enjoyable games of magic, obviously it's a lot easier to interact with creatures than interacting with spells, as not all colors have ways to interact with them, that's the easy explanation on why Splinter Twin has been allowed to exist in the format, you don't need a narrow answer to it, every color has a way to interact with splinter twin, the same goes for Melira/Anafenza, or infect.
On the same vein, they have nerfed non-interactive combo decks, that make for uninteresting solitary games (Eggs, storm, hypergenesis, etc), they have even nerfed creature-based combo decks that are too fast (shoal-infect, dark depts, affinity) and thus make for uninteresting one-sided games.
Now for the particular banning of birthing pod, it had to happen, not because of power level only, but because it promotes having the same exact game over and over again, and that makes for unfun games (yes, some people may like that, but most people don't), it's not a problem in and on itself, if Pod was only a small part of the metagame, it would have been fine, but as it was, too many games were just replays of a previous one, and that wasn't fun.
Now, banning is not the only solution, and usually not the first one they use, an example of this is before banning birthing pod, they tried to make answers like Hushwing Gryff, as it didn't worked they had to go for the ban.
As you all can see it's not about wizards not wanting people to have fun with modern, it's about them wanting to maximize the number of people having fun with the format, yes at the expense of a certain (honestly very small) number of people that have fun playing games that most other people consider unfun.
They would be better off with banning Terminus than SDT. While SDT does enable the use of the card, Terminus banning would just even the playing field, creating a healthier format for Legacy.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
i am fine with no changes. modern rewards you for knowing your metagame. you can tune your deck to do well against all kinds of fields of archetypes, but if you go in blindly you really cant expect much. there is nothing out there right now that is too powerful. you can point out grishoalbrand and amulet bloom being able to win super early and then id point out that those kind of wins rarely happen and id also point out that both of those decks are pretty easy to disrupt even when not playing blue.
i also find the notion of control being dead in modern to be pretty laughable. its still here, its just difficult to pilot as usual and you get punished incredibly hard for making a misplay. against these silly one trick pony decks a misplay will cost you the game, but if you are keen enough to see a card or two and make an educated guess about what your opponent is on, you can dominate AND play control.
TLDR; if you are mad about modern, you should stop complaining and go practice it, because that's the best way to improve your game and its a lot more likely than you hoping a deck gets banned. research every popular deck and know its key cards and try to have a plan against any deck you might run into, no matter how poor your matchup may be. doing this research will reap you many benefits.
I'm glad you're not in charge of Modern ban lists Exodite. It would just become another stale copy of standard if someone with your philosophy was in charge. There is nothing objective btw about anything you posted. It's your belief and quite subjective and thankfully it's not a belief the majority share.
I love Titan Bloom as a concept and I don't even play Modern because I think that format is stupid. Don't worry guys, knowing WotC they will ban the deck sooner or later, because reckless use of the banhammer is a perfectly fair and interesting way of shaking up the format that everyone likes /s
The only reason why people may think combo decks are oppressive in Modern is because there are absolutely no tools to stop them in the early game, tools like FoW or Flusterstorm. Because the current combo decks in the format are, let's admit it, pretty weak powerwise. When you say that a card that does absolutely nothing unless you have 2-3 karoo lands in hand is format warping and oppressive you might want to look at the reason elsewhere, because Summer Bloom certainly isn't the problem.
But the most irritating thing in this whole thread is the people that claim they don't play modern and don't even like it - but still offer up their unexpirienced and therefore unwanted opinion. Please discuss formats you play, or at least like, whatever they might be and stop telling modern players the modern combo decks are fine.
I was just thinking the same thing.
I don't see Modern players discussing and offering their opinion on Vintage or Legacy bans or unbans or whatever else. Are some people mad that their favorite format is a niche format in the grand scheme of things while Standard and Modern both get a ton of support from Wizards?
I'm glad you're not in charge of Modern ban lists Exodite. It would just become another stale copy of standard if someone with your philosophy was in charge. There is nothing objective btw about anything you posted. It's your belief and quite subjective and thankfully it's not a belief the majority share.
So what objective did you post? Oh, right: Nothing.
Standard is certainly not stale and banning some of the worst offenders of T2 kills would make the format better, as many pro's believe. And if you think the majority likes "no changes" then you are wrong. People hate bloom, that's why they don't play it and they most certainly hate to play against it as well.
I never suggested I was objective. Some people love modern and some don't. I just don't think his suggestions are good and would lead to a format too similar to Standard. Just personal opinion, but at least with the bannings announced here it seems to suggest WotC in some ways shares.
Basically my view is that modern is legacy without the issues of the restricted list. Basically a format that they can support because they can reprint all the cards. And that includes having powerful interactions and combo decks. Exodites posts seems to suggest he wants a format akin to standard but with a larger card base. It's a fine view but it basically leads to a bunch of midrange value decks. GBx being powerful in that environment would be true, regardless of combo existing or not. Standard now does have a wide variety of decks, as long as you're happy with midrange value fests. I am not enamored with that so I prefer modern like it is, maybe with more Unbannings to shake things up.
But the most irritating thing in this whole thread is the people that claim they don't play modern and don't even like it - but still offer up their unexpirienced and therefore unwanted opinion. Please discuss formats you play, or at least like, whatever they might be and stop telling modern players the modern combo decks are fine.
I was just thinking the same thing.
I don't see Modern players discussing and offering their opinion on Vintage or Legacy bans or unbans or whatever else. Are some people mad that their favorite format is a niche format in the grand scheme of things while Standard and Modern both get a ton of support from Wizards?
Quite petty if true.
So very true.
Amulet bloom and Grishoalbrand are combined around 5-6 percent of the meta, and that's it. That is not a high enough meta percentage to become tier one right now, and neither deck has enough top finishes . If either deck were truly as broken as everyone seems to think they are, then they would eb dominating the format like TC was. It's ridiculous for people who don't play the format to attempt to justify a banning of a card. Please, all of you read this and then come back. This is one of the best modern formats we have ever had, and snap banning things is a great way to ruin it.
lol. I know. I had a whole video of me ranting over that and titled it as "Kird Ape is dead."
There was a time in old extended when Kird Ape was banned and Necropotence wasn't. As a 13 year old R/G aggro player at the time, I was infuriated.
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Yeah, the green bolt was ironically banned for a similar reason. Then unbanned with a "Yeah, we did it again. Our bad. Heres your pet back."
While I have next to zero opinion on Modern as I consider it a horrendous format, this statement nonetheless makes me think back to Eggs....
Maybe I'm simply not knowledgeable about the format, as I care none for it. However, I feel Wizards' goal for Modern is to nix any self-respecting combo deck as a result of lack of desire to make a Force of Will-esque card Modern legal.
I love combo and hate to see related decks banned unless they are deemed unhealthy.....but from the start I have seen Modern as a spiral down "next ban" format, and I can only hope that my initial views as well as personal discontents are resolved through PROPER management of a ban list.
Come on dude. Look around. 50% of the Magic community is at summer camp, working at Subway, or trying aimlessly to get laid this summer. Nobody's home. Just passing the ban list announcement off to whoever's left in the office is all they need to do.
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You don't like combo decks.
Some people do, and the main Modern combo decks (Twin, Tron, Bloom)
have been a healthy part of the meta for quite some time for a reason.
They're also *quite* a bit more interactive than Legacy combo decks.
You can always play Affinity, Infect, Jund/Junk, Jeskai Control, or Burn
if you want a non-combo deck that performs at least as well as the decks you so fear.
Some people just want to watch the world ban.
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Control needs more love.
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Did you just say combo doesn't exist in the modern era, cus Jeskai ascendancy standard would disagree with you
Also, I'd argue no combo decks is far more unhealthy, wanna know why? Cus eventually you get to one creature deck that runs the biggest and best creatures. Let's also consider they don't let control really exist in modern, you need combo to have a varied format.
But sure, lets go to an all GBx format....
I have been arguing for the unbanning of balance for years. "It costs two" seems to be the only arguement against it.
I don't believe for a second that it was even tested before being banned, nor has it ever been tested by the rules committee, because it takes sacrificing virgins to RNGesus to abuse the card in any way that actually wins you the game. 99/100 all it does is punish a player for casting Boundless Realms.
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I didn't quite catch that, you weren't clear. what's your opinion on modern?
This is funny to me. I guess someone really, really, really wanted Jaya Ballard to be sweet in TL, and now she is. Luckily no one around here has played the format in months.
First and foremost that it's a terrible format with an inconsistent ban list.
But, I assume you were trolling, because reading comprehension alone would have allowed you to glean that simple truth from my post.
I appreciate your fundamental view of why the format always has and always will be miserable.
On the same vein, they have nerfed non-interactive combo decks, that make for uninteresting solitary games (Eggs, storm, hypergenesis, etc), they have even nerfed creature-based combo decks that are too fast (shoal-infect, dark depts, affinity) and thus make for uninteresting one-sided games.
Now for the particular banning of birthing pod, it had to happen, not because of power level only, but because it promotes having the same exact game over and over again, and that makes for unfun games (yes, some people may like that, but most people don't), it's not a problem in and on itself, if Pod was only a small part of the metagame, it would have been fine, but as it was, too many games were just replays of a previous one, and that wasn't fun.
Now, banning is not the only solution, and usually not the first one they use, an example of this is before banning birthing pod, they tried to make answers like Hushwing Gryff, as it didn't worked they had to go for the ban.
As you all can see it's not about wizards not wanting people to have fun with modern, it's about them wanting to maximize the number of people having fun with the format, yes at the expense of a certain (honestly very small) number of people that have fun playing games that most other people consider unfun.
BUG Reanimator
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They would be better off with banning Terminus than SDT. While SDT does enable the use of the card, Terminus banning would just even the playing field, creating a healthier format for Legacy.
i also find the notion of control being dead in modern to be pretty laughable. its still here, its just difficult to pilot as usual and you get punished incredibly hard for making a misplay. against these silly one trick pony decks a misplay will cost you the game, but if you are keen enough to see a card or two and make an educated guess about what your opponent is on, you can dominate AND play control.
TLDR; if you are mad about modern, you should stop complaining and go practice it, because that's the best way to improve your game and its a lot more likely than you hoping a deck gets banned. research every popular deck and know its key cards and try to have a plan against any deck you might run into, no matter how poor your matchup may be. doing this research will reap you many benefits.
The only reason why people may think combo decks are oppressive in Modern is because there are absolutely no tools to stop them in the early game, tools like FoW or Flusterstorm. Because the current combo decks in the format are, let's admit it, pretty weak powerwise. When you say that a card that does absolutely nothing unless you have 2-3 karoo lands in hand is format warping and oppressive you might want to look at the reason elsewhere, because Summer Bloom certainly isn't the problem.
I was just thinking the same thing.
I don't see Modern players discussing and offering their opinion on Vintage or Legacy bans or unbans or whatever else. Are some people mad that their favorite format is a niche format in the grand scheme of things while Standard and Modern both get a ton of support from Wizards?
Quite petty if true.
I never suggested I was objective. Some people love modern and some don't. I just don't think his suggestions are good and would lead to a format too similar to Standard. Just personal opinion, but at least with the bannings announced here it seems to suggest WotC in some ways shares.
Basically my view is that modern is legacy without the issues of the restricted list. Basically a format that they can support because they can reprint all the cards. And that includes having powerful interactions and combo decks. Exodites posts seems to suggest he wants a format akin to standard but with a larger card base. It's a fine view but it basically leads to a bunch of midrange value decks. GBx being powerful in that environment would be true, regardless of combo existing or not. Standard now does have a wide variety of decks, as long as you're happy with midrange value fests. I am not enamored with that so I prefer modern like it is, maybe with more Unbannings to shake things up.
So very true.
Amulet bloom and Grishoalbrand are combined around 5-6 percent of the meta, and that's it. That is not a high enough meta percentage to become tier one right now, and neither deck has enough top finishes . If either deck were truly as broken as everyone seems to think they are, then they would eb dominating the format like TC was. It's ridiculous for people who don't play the format to attempt to justify a banning of a card. Please, all of you read this and then come back. This is one of the best modern formats we have ever had, and snap banning things is a great way to ruin it.
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