Assuming this page is still valid, this is what Wizards considers a proxy:
Maybe the notice is using the WPN's meaning of "proxy" to basically say that judge-created proxies are not allowed outside of the event in which they were created?
No, those are the only legal proxies. Allegedly, the problem wasn't people writing "Black Lotus" on a Forest. It's that many people were printing off the actual card and pasting it over the top of another, making essentially crappy counterfeits. You'll notice that even in the definition of judge proxies, they make sure to note that proxies don't include any graphical representation of what they are substituting.
So I take it this means Wizards is finally going to abolish the Reserved List and start making a real effort to reign in insane secondary market prices, riiiight?
I wonder if Wizards will ban players for not reporting that their store allows proxies in unsanctioned tournaments?
Well, WOTC has banned judges for only being associated with leaks, so...
The game store in question was streaming their tournaments on Twitch, so it might not have been a store-goer who reported it.
I think this answers it. Allowing a shop to keep WPN status while flaunting their breaking of this existing (but rarely enforced) rule of WPN status is not in their beat interest. Especially (and i have mo idea if this is tur case) if tue ahop sees profit from twitch streamimg of unsanctioned proxy events. These rules are not new, apparently.
Assuming this page is still valid, this is what Wizards considers a proxy:
Maybe the notice is using the WPN's meaning of "proxy" to basically say that judge-created proxies are not allowed outside of the event in which they were created?
No, those are the only legal proxies. Allegedly, the problem wasn't people writing "Black Lotus" on a Forest. It's that many people were printing off the actual card and pasting it over the top of another, making essentially crappy counterfeits. You'll notice that even in the definition of judge proxies, they make sure to note that proxies don't include any graphical representation of what they are substituting.
What I'm saying is that maybe people were receiving an official judge-made proxy at an event then using that same proxy at other events as if it was a valid card.
What I'm saying is that maybe people were receiving an official judge-made proxy at an event then using that same proxy at other events as if it was a valid card.
No, this was not the case. Wizards told the store that they were using "counterfeit" cards, which is something Wizards strictly prohibits.
Good luck vintage. That's all I can say from this as sanctioned vintage tournaments are rarely seen in the wild and I have played sanctioned vintage exactly once and that was the vintage side event at GP Vegas 2015. Now in terms of vintage events in paper in general there's going to be basically nothing outside the handful of sanctioned big events each year (BoM, champs, and those fleeting GP side events that can actually fire.)
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
What I'm saying is that maybe people were receiving an official judge-made proxy at an event then using that same proxy at other events as if it was a valid card.
No, this was not the case. Wizards told the store that they were using "counterfeit" cards, which is something Wizards strictly prohibits.
Have other stores reported receiving similar notices? Every discussion I find points back to the same Facebook post and I haven't seen anyone back them up.
Have other stores reported receiving similar notices? Every discussion I find points back to the same Facebook post and I haven't seen anyone back them up.
I've only heard of Games & Stuff getting the notice. I've been there. They're one of the top gaming stores in my area, and they have a good reputation. If they say they got a notice from Wizards, it happened.
Lol streaming on twitch. I mean, how smart can one get when you're streaming to a live audience using proxy cards.
Obviously the attention they seek was the one they deserved.
Not really, hey had no idea Wizards would come down on them for it. They believed they were in the clear as long as they didn't try to sanction the event (many stores in the US have been under the same impression for years).
Have other stores reported receiving similar notices? Every discussion I find points back to the same Facebook post and I haven't seen anyone back them up.
I've only heard of Games & Stuff getting the notice. I've been there. They're one of the top gaming stores in my area, and they have a good reputation. If they say they got a notice from Wizards, it happened.
I can vouch for that, too. Games and Stuff can almost be described as prototypical when it comes to an ideal LGS. I used to drive there pretty often until a couple good stores opened up in my area. They've got a pretty large player base, too, with plenty of Legacy and Modern events. I wouldn't be surprised if they just tow the line publicly but keep an unspoken proxy rule.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Even if we're under an impression that we're "safe", there's such a thing call being street smart.
It's an amalgamation of "trip-ups".
1) Streaming live gets attention, on top of that the possibility of public awareness.
2) playing with proxy cards are already contentious and subjective thing.
The moment you don't at least question (yourself or your group) those 2 criteria above, you're already inviting potential trouble.
(EDIT: Hmm..thought I quoted one of the psoters saying the event was streamed.)
Really?
I play at G&S and have never seen streaming gear, and I was just in there on my way to work to buy sleeves and a deck box and didn't see any new kit in the play area.
IANAL, but I thought that counterfeits required being identical to, or substantially indistinguishable, from a genuine item?
Side note: is there any form of verification to ensure that, should someone try to "weasel" on a store, the claims are actually true? I mean, if not, what - on top of the money/cost to hire an attorney - would stop a defamation suit from a store that lost its status over claims that turned out to be false?
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
Allowing a small amount of proxies per deck allows more people access to legacy formats as more people can put together decks that stand a chance of not being crushed. It also allows for more experimentation that people might not bother with if they had to shell out an extra $300 just to test something in a tournament setting.
More people with access = greater interest and healthier formats. Greater interest = larger audience to sell additional product to.
Obviously there needs to be a balance otherwise people will be running around with a full 60 card proxy deck. But coming out and saying "NO, NEVER" is just another knee-jerk reaction by this company.
Good luck vintage. That's all I can say from this as sanctioned vintage tournaments are rarely seen in the wild and I have played sanctioned vintage exactly once and that was the vintage side event at GP Vegas 2015. Now in terms of vintage events in paper in general there's going to be basically nothing outside the handful of sanctioned big events each year (BoM, champs, and those fleeting GP side events that can actually fire.)
yeah I can't see vintage getting much more support now that you can't even use proxies. Unless the community rallies in a way similar to the Legacy Community did when SCG stopped having as much legacy events
I mean I'd hate to see any format die but it doesn't look good
Good luck vintage. That's all I can say from this as sanctioned vintage tournaments are rarely seen in the wild and I have played sanctioned vintage exactly once and that was the vintage side event at GP Vegas 2015. Now in terms of vintage events in paper in general there's going to be basically nothing outside the handful of sanctioned big events each year (BoM, champs, and those fleeting GP side events that can actually fire.)
yeah I can't see vintage getting much more support now that you can't even use proxies. Unless the community rallies in a way similar to the Legacy Community did when SCG stopped having as much legacy events
I mean I'd hate to see any format die but it doesn't look good
The only people "happy" about this, are the investor drones who don't realize that when legacy dies, and the demand for their investment pieces dies, there goes the value.
Has there been anything official besides one store saying they got called about this? Could someone link to it. If there's nothing official or a large number of stores getting contacted in the same way I'm honestly thinking that someone's stirring the pot and trolling everyone.
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
Well considering that they don't print many legacy/vintage staples anymore and many are on the reserved list they aren't hurt or benefited in any way. If they printed the cards still it may be an issue. All sales are on a secondary market and WOTC doesn't make any money from the format.
So they need to address the issue that these formats are very difficult to get into because cards have low supply and the only current way is to make proxies.
Has there been anything official besides one store saying they got called about this? Could someone link to it. If there's nothing official or a large number of stores getting contacted in the same way I'm honestly thinking that someone's stirring the pot and trolling everyone.
Just to be clear, you're saying you think a well-known and popular game store is lying about this? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I mean, I read the FB thread. I'm a part of the group where it was posted. Many friends and acquaintances of mine were posting about how they just learned of this, hours before they were going to play in the event. This isn't some big hoax, if that's what you're thinking.
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
I think it is reasonable to assume most people who proxy do not proxy every deck they own and in fact purchase cards as well. The cards that are most likely proxied are cards that are insanely expensive and/or limited in quantity due to WOTC having an inadequate reprint policy. Being able to proxy means more people playing formats that feature cards that are insanely expensive and/or limited in quantity. This means more people will be interested in said formats and buying in to said formats (minus the few extremely expensive and/or difficult to obtain cards). More people buying cards and/or playing Magic means more money for WOTC.
Being able to proxy also allows for more brewing and a healthier meta.
WOTC should use this opportunity to consider more impactful reprints.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Have other stores reported receiving similar notices? Every discussion I find points back to the same Facebook post and I haven't seen anyone back them up.
I've only heard of Games & Stuff getting the notice. I've been there. They're one of the top gaming stores in my area, and they have a good reputation. If they say they got a notice from Wizards, it happened.
I did not mean to insinuate that Games & Stuff is lying about the notice. It just seems odd that Wizards would single out one shop about a practice that is done at basically every other shop. Usually there is an official announcement for such things.
No, those are the only legal proxies. Allegedly, the problem wasn't people writing "Black Lotus" on a Forest. It's that many people were printing off the actual card and pasting it over the top of another, making essentially crappy counterfeits. You'll notice that even in the definition of judge proxies, they make sure to note that proxies don't include any graphical representation of what they are substituting.
Well, WOTC has banned judges for only being associated with leaks, so...
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What I'm saying is that maybe people were receiving an official judge-made proxy at an event then using that same proxy at other events as if it was a valid card.
No, this was not the case. Wizards told the store that they were using "counterfeit" cards, which is something Wizards strictly prohibits.
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Have other stores reported receiving similar notices? Every discussion I find points back to the same Facebook post and I haven't seen anyone back them up.
I've only heard of Games & Stuff getting the notice. I've been there. They're one of the top gaming stores in my area, and they have a good reputation. If they say they got a notice from Wizards, it happened.
Obviously the attention they seek was the one they deserved.
C'mon man, no1 black market rule: Don't Get Caught.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Not really, hey had no idea Wizards would come down on them for it. They believed they were in the clear as long as they didn't try to sanction the event (many stores in the US have been under the same impression for years).
I can vouch for that, too. Games and Stuff can almost be described as prototypical when it comes to an ideal LGS. I used to drive there pretty often until a couple good stores opened up in my area. They've got a pretty large player base, too, with plenty of Legacy and Modern events. I wouldn't be surprised if they just tow the line publicly but keep an unspoken proxy rule.
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My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
It's an amalgamation of "trip-ups".
1) Streaming live gets attention, on top of that the possibility of public awareness.
2) playing with proxy cards are already contentious and subjective thing.
The moment you don't at least question (yourself or your group) those 2 criteria above, you're already inviting potential trouble.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Really?
I play at G&S and have never seen streaming gear, and I was just in there on my way to work to buy sleeves and a deck box and didn't see any new kit in the play area.
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Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
IANAL, but I thought that counterfeits required being identical to, or substantially indistinguishable, from a genuine item?
Side note: is there any form of verification to ensure that, should someone try to "weasel" on a store, the claims are actually true? I mean, if not, what - on top of the money/cost to hire an attorney - would stop a defamation suit from a store that lost its status over claims that turned out to be false?
Allowing a small amount of proxies per deck allows more people access to legacy formats as more people can put together decks that stand a chance of not being crushed. It also allows for more experimentation that people might not bother with if they had to shell out an extra $300 just to test something in a tournament setting.
More people with access = greater interest and healthier formats. Greater interest = larger audience to sell additional product to.
Obviously there needs to be a balance otherwise people will be running around with a full 60 card proxy deck. But coming out and saying "NO, NEVER" is just another knee-jerk reaction by this company.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
yeah I can't see vintage getting much more support now that you can't even use proxies. Unless the community rallies in a way similar to the Legacy Community did when SCG stopped having as much legacy events
I mean I'd hate to see any format die but it doesn't look good
The only people "happy" about this, are the investor drones who don't realize that when legacy dies, and the demand for their investment pieces dies, there goes the value.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
Well considering that they don't print many legacy/vintage staples anymore and many are on the reserved list they aren't hurt or benefited in any way. If they printed the cards still it may be an issue. All sales are on a secondary market and WOTC doesn't make any money from the format.
So they need to address the issue that these formats are very difficult to get into because cards have low supply and the only current way is to make proxies.
Just to be clear, you're saying you think a well-known and popular game store is lying about this? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I mean, I read the FB thread. I'm a part of the group where it was posted. Many friends and acquaintances of mine were posting about how they just learned of this, hours before they were going to play in the event. This isn't some big hoax, if that's what you're thinking.
I think it is reasonable to assume most people who proxy do not proxy every deck they own and in fact purchase cards as well. The cards that are most likely proxied are cards that are insanely expensive and/or limited in quantity due to WOTC having an inadequate reprint policy. Being able to proxy means more people playing formats that feature cards that are insanely expensive and/or limited in quantity. This means more people will be interested in said formats and buying in to said formats (minus the few extremely expensive and/or difficult to obtain cards). More people buying cards and/or playing Magic means more money for WOTC.
Being able to proxy also allows for more brewing and a healthier meta.
WOTC should use this opportunity to consider more impactful reprints.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I did not mean to insinuate that Games & Stuff is lying about the notice. It just seems odd that Wizards would single out one shop about a practice that is done at basically every other shop. Usually there is an official announcement for such things.