[quote from="rujasu »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/661757-wpn-crackdown?comment=43"]I did not mean to insinuate that Games & Stuff is lying about the notice. It just seems odd that Wizards would single out one shop about a practice that is done at basically every other shop. Usually there is an official announcement for such things.
Ah. From the looks of things, Wizards contacted G&S because someone tipped Wizards off that the proxy events were happening at G&S.
Magic is successful, at least in part, because there's no pretense that everyone deserves to play every format -- that everyone is entitled to be able to afford every card. Aside from playtesting, where it's okay to scribble on a plains just to see if the deck plays better with an alteration or not, I don't support proxies. I don't like the idea of proxie tournaments. I don't care if formats die because people can't afford to play them. I limit my Magic to what I can afford. Everyone should do likewise. There's a reason my Commander deck doesn't contain an Imperial Seal, and it's not because my Sharpie's all dried up. Good for Wizards. Standards are good.
Magic is successful, at least in part, because there's no pretense that everyone deserves to play every format -- that everyone is entitled to be able to afford every card. Aside from playtesting, where it's okay to scribble on a plains just to see if the deck plays better with an alteration or not, I don't support proxies. I don't like the idea of proxie tournaments. I don't care if formats die because people can't afford to play them. I limit my Magic to what I can afford. Everyone should do likewise. There's a reason my Commander deck doesn't contain an Imperial Seal, and it's not because my Sharpie's all dried up. Good for Wizards. Standards are good.
BaronCappucino, your location is stated as hell, and I'm curious if you got there because you kicked the chair under your corporate noose?
Magic is a beautiful idea, and there is room in the community for proxies. Proxy tournaments are just proof that there is a serious under printing of many cards, and it's a real problem for the game because more people could be playing. If it weren't for proxies, myself and many others I know wouldn't even play this game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind supporting the game and the people involved, but the "not everyone deserves to be able to play with every card" attitude is pure poison.
Magic is better when everyone is having fun. Games should be won through skill, not on one's income.
I can kind of see the logic here. 10-proxy vintage and legacy is one thing. WoTC doesn't make any money off of people buying and selling cards they don't and can't print any more, so it's easy to look the other way. However, when people start holding full-proxy modern or standard events, now that could start cutting into sales.
I'm guessing they thought stores wouldn't object much (as any proxies people are playing with are singles they could be selling), and I'm sure the Hasbro/WoTC legal team made a strong suggestion that condoning any play with proxies is a bad idea.
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My decks
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
Magic is successful, at least in part, because there's no pretense that everyone deserves to play every format -- that everyone is entitled to be able to afford every card. Aside from playtesting, where it's okay to scribble on a plains just to see if the deck plays better with an alteration or not, I don't support proxies. I don't like the idea of proxie tournaments. I don't care if formats die because people can't afford to play them. I limit my Magic to what I can afford. Everyone should do likewise. There's a reason my Commander deck doesn't contain an Imperial Seal, and it's not because my Sharpie's all dried up. Good for Wizards. Standards are good.
BaronCappucino, your location is stated as hell, and I'm curious if you got there because you kicked the chair under your corporate noose?
Magic is a beautiful idea, and there is room in the community for proxies. Proxy tournaments are just proof that there is a serious under printing of many cards, and it's a real problem for the game because more people could be playing. If it weren't for proxies, myself and many others I know wouldn't even play this game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind supporting the game and the people involved, but the "not everyone deserves to be able to play with every card" attitude is pure poison.
Magic is better when everyone is having fun. Games should be won through skill, not on one's income.
But WOTC loves the "he who spends the most wins the most" mentality, it pads their pockets nicer.
My store's regulars have a strong anti-proxie sentiment running through them. Certainly makes things easier for me. My shop can follow the rules. I want to follow the rules. They want to follow the rules. We've no Vintage going on here. Real Vintage is practically dead. Two or three of us have a Legacy deck, but Legacy doesn't happen here. Commander and Limited are by far the two most popular formats here, and Modern and Standard have good enough followings to hold events. I can safely bank on every regular owning a Commander and a Modern deck. The new Standard rotation scared off a bunch who couldn't afford to keep up, but doesn't stop Game Days or anything. Commander decks run the whole spectrum here, because all the cards are real. Modern follows the trends you see on the larger scale, with inexpensive decks being prevalent, and flagship decks being less common. Magic is perfectly healthy despite not living in a utopia where Oprah Winfrey gives everyone a Black Lotus.
I don't see why Magic shouldn't have various formats of various costs. If you don't want to spend the money, play cheaper formats. If you want to play Vintage, and cannot afford it, make better life decisions.
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MTGSalvation; Where the whining is a time honored tradition, and enjoying the game is trolling.
I don't see why Magic shouldn't have various formats of various costs. If you don't want to spend the money, play cheaper formats. If you want to play Vintage, and cannot afford it, make better life decisions.
Some people would argue that spending $2000+ on a stack of cardboard is a pretty poor life decision. Just because you CAN afford something doesn't mean you should buy it.
You really don't think so? It's pretty clear at this point WOTC is doing everything it can to kill vintage at this point.
Eternal formats with a list of cards that can't be printed would have to be unsupported eventually. Cardboard has a shelf life. Things deteriorate. Cell walls break down over time.
My shop also happens to be a coffee shop - in fact, it's a coffee shop first, and as a parallel to this, I have the whole spectrum of cafe regulars from the guy who sits down all day on the WiFi and buys nothing, to the folks who come in and buy drinks regularly while enjoying some gaming. Every business has a choice it has to make when it comes to who to cater to. I doubt WotC will hurt much if it no longer makes room for the WiFi leeches in their "customer" base.
Not to be rude, but what does this contribute to the conversation? How is that, at all, relevant? Where is anyone implying either that WotC is not a business, or that MTG is a charity cause? Even if that is true, how is that relevant to a basic tenant of business, "don't be a dick to your customer base"
(and in response to your 2nd post: Using proxies in one event doesn't make you not a customer outright. You can still play Standard and/or modern, buy product, obtain legal cards, etc, and still use proxies for testing decks with friends, or even in playing in these few unsanctioned events.
Not to be rude, but what does this contribute to the conversation? How is that, at all, relevant? Where is anyone implying either that WotC is not a business, or that MTG is a charity cause? Even if that is true, how is that relevant to a basic tentnat of business, "don't be a dick to your players?"
(and in response to your 2nd post: Using proxies in one event doesn't make you not a customer. You can still play Standard and M/or modern, buy product, obtain legal cards, etc, and still use proxies for testing decks with friends, or even in playing in these few unsanctioned events for events whose card base is not being reprinted any time soon, if ever.
WOTC is focusing on it's most profitable areas and cracking down on counterfeits. I don't see any issues here. Cardboard has a shelf life. They can't support formats where they won't be able to get sales and expect the cards to last forever.
Yeah, unfortunately it seems that Wizards is trying to force people into Modern/Standard. I know a few people who have already scrapped their Legacy decks in order to build Modern, which is sad honestly, that they felt they were forced to do that, what with Legacy support at an all-time low and new, strict policies like these. Wizards should cater to Legacy players as well, with something like Legacy Masters. I know they would have to dodge the reserve list, but there are a ton of cards that would be viable reprints, stuff like Force of Will, Wasteland, Dark Depths, Stoneforge Mystic, etc. This would make the format more accessible and would make Wizards some serious $$$. Honestly, I'm surprised they HAVEN'T done something like this yet.
Yeah, unfortunately it seems that Wizards is trying to force people into Modern/Standard. I know a few people who have already scrapped their Legacy decks in order to build Modern, which is sad honestly, that they felt they were forced to do that, what with Legacy support at an all-time low and new, strict policies like these. Wizards should cater to Legacy players as well, with something like Legacy Masters. I know they would have to dodge the reserve list, but there are a ton of cards that would be viable reprints, stuff like Force of Will, Wasteland, Dark Depths, Stoneforge Mystic, etc. This would make the format more accessible and would make Wizards some serious $$$. Honestly, I'm surprised they HAVEN'T done something like this yet.
I know a guy who just sold out of legacy for modern too.
I think that the problem with a "Legacy Masters" is that a lot of the staples are on the reserve list but I guess they could still do a decent Legacy Masters
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
Allowing a small amount of proxies per deck allows more people access to legacy formats as more people can put together decks that stand a chance of not being crushed. It also allows for more experimentation that people might not bother with if they had to shell out an extra $300 just to test something in a tournament setting.
More people with access = greater interest and healthier formats. Greater interest = larger audience to sell additional product to.
Obviously there needs to be a balance otherwise people will be running around with a full 60 card proxy deck. But coming out and saying "NO, NEVER" is just another knee-jerk reaction by this company.
You'd think WotC would want to capitilize on this demand for older cards. There are legacy/vintage cards that aren't on the reserved list, right? Then again, they haven't done that... so I suppose they don't think they can control their own printing abilities well enough to prevent price crashes? Perhaps any price drop is a net negative for them. Keeping some cards consistently expensive has the effect of maintaining the idea that cards can be inherently valuable, incentivizing people to pay higher prices for them.
This particular case seems to simply be the result of carelessness. WotC's official stance has always been against counterfeits and this LGS discovered how far they could push it before being shut down.
Not to be rude, but what does this contribute to the conversation? How is that, at all, relevant? Where is anyone implying either that WotC is not a business, or that MTG is a charity cause? Even if that is true, how is that relevant to a basic tentnat of business, "don't be a dick to your players?"
(and in response to your 2nd post: Using proxies in one event doesn't make you not a customer. You can still play Standard and M/or modern, buy product, obtain legal cards, etc, and still use proxies for testing decks with friends, or even in playing in these few unsanctioned events for events whose card base is not being reprinted any time soon, if ever.
WOTC is focusing on it's most profitable areas and cracking down on counterfeits. I don't see any issues here. Cardboard has a shelf life. They can't support formats where they won't be able to get sales and expect the cards to last forever.
You're saying that they wouldn't get sales from a Vintage / Legacy Masters. If Wotc were to change the reserve list to not allow functional reprints in sets that are part of Standard's rotation, then they could make an obscene amount of money. This would also alleviate the need for proxies and reduce how lucrative fakes are.
There is a clear demand for this type of product. All that remains is if Wizards is willing to support the community, grow the community, and profit by it. They aren't profiting from any third party sales of these cards.
Players need to unite and make an entity separate from the DCI that runs events. That way WotC won't be able to bully players anymore.
The WPN is a bigger problem, but it just means that a LGS won't receive promos and pre-release kits anymore. If a dedicated vintage LGS exists I'm sure they can live without that.
The game is still good and that makes the community accept these corporate decisions that make people feel bad, but when the quality will decline everyone will abandon ship, because it's not worth it to be loyal to a company that ****s you over every chance they get.
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You're saying that they wouldn't get sales from a Vintage / Legacy Masters. If Wotc were to change the reserve list to not allow functional reprints in sets that are part of Standard's rotation, then they could make an obscene amount of money. This would also alleviate the need for proxies and reduce how lucrative fakes are.
There is a clear demand for this type of product. All that remains is if Wizards is willing to support the community, grow the community, and profit by it.
Now you are talking a hypothetical situation that hasn't happened. We have to look at the situation from where we are grounded currently. The reserve list is a fact at this time and there are cards that will not see reprints in any form that would make them tourney legal.
Look at it from where we are now. WOTC can't reprint reserve list cards. Those cards make up Vintage and Legacy decks. Those cards will eventually deteriorate over time.
For the record I am 100% in favor of the abolishment of the Reserve List and have been pushing for a reprint of the Collector's and International editions. But that's a much different discussion from what is happening here.
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Ah. From the looks of things, Wizards contacted G&S because someone tipped Wizards off that the proxy events were happening at G&S.
BaronCappucino, your location is stated as hell, and I'm curious if you got there because you kicked the chair under your corporate noose?
Magic is a beautiful idea, and there is room in the community for proxies. Proxy tournaments are just proof that there is a serious under printing of many cards, and it's a real problem for the game because more people could be playing. If it weren't for proxies, myself and many others I know wouldn't even play this game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind supporting the game and the people involved, but the "not everyone deserves to be able to play with every card" attitude is pure poison.
Magic is better when everyone is having fun. Games should be won through skill, not on one's income.
I'm guessing they thought stores wouldn't object much (as any proxies people are playing with are singles they could be selling), and I'm sure the Hasbro/WoTC legal team made a strong suggestion that condoning any play with proxies is a bad idea.
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
But WOTC loves the "he who spends the most wins the most" mentality, it pads their pockets nicer.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
Did you know it's entirely possible to run a highly profitable business without alienating customer bases?
Also allowing proxies to encourage continued participation and keeping eternal formats healthy is not the same thing as charity.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
Some people would argue that spending $2000+ on a stack of cardboard is a pretty poor life decision. Just because you CAN afford something doesn't mean you should buy it.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
It's not alienating a customer base if you are excluding people who don't product from legal sources.
You really don't think so? It's pretty clear WOTC is doing everything it can to kill vintage at this point.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
They're not actively trying to kill Vintage. They just don't care about it either way.
Eternal formats with a list of cards that can't be printed would have to be unsupported eventually. Cardboard has a shelf life. Things deteriorate. Cell walls break down over time.
Time to move on.
Not to be rude, but what does this contribute to the conversation? How is that, at all, relevant? Where is anyone implying either that WotC is not a business, or that MTG is a charity cause? Even if that is true, how is that relevant to a basic tenant of business, "don't be a dick to your customer base"
(and in response to your 2nd post: Using proxies in one event doesn't make you not a customer outright. You can still play Standard and/or modern, buy product, obtain legal cards, etc, and still use proxies for testing decks with friends, or even in playing in these few unsanctioned events.
WOTC is focusing on it's most profitable areas and cracking down on counterfeits. I don't see any issues here. Cardboard has a shelf life. They can't support formats where they won't be able to get sales and expect the cards to last forever.
I know a guy who just sold out of legacy for modern too.
I think that the problem with a "Legacy Masters" is that a lot of the staples are on the reserve list but I guess they could still do a decent Legacy Masters
You'd think WotC would want to capitilize on this demand for older cards. There are legacy/vintage cards that aren't on the reserved list, right? Then again, they haven't done that... so I suppose they don't think they can control their own printing abilities well enough to prevent price crashes? Perhaps any price drop is a net negative for them. Keeping some cards consistently expensive has the effect of maintaining the idea that cards can be inherently valuable, incentivizing people to pay higher prices for them.
This particular case seems to simply be the result of carelessness. WotC's official stance has always been against counterfeits and this LGS discovered how far they could push it before being shut down.
You're saying that they wouldn't get sales from a Vintage / Legacy Masters. If Wotc were to change the reserve list to not allow functional reprints in sets that are part of Standard's rotation, then they could make an obscene amount of money. This would also alleviate the need for proxies and reduce how lucrative fakes are.
There is a clear demand for this type of product. All that remains is if Wizards is willing to support the community, grow the community, and profit by it. They aren't profiting from any third party sales of these cards.
Players need to unite and make an entity separate from the DCI that runs events. That way WotC won't be able to bully players anymore.
The WPN is a bigger problem, but it just means that a LGS won't receive promos and pre-release kits anymore. If a dedicated vintage LGS exists I'm sure they can live without that.
The game is still good and that makes the community accept these corporate decisions that make people feel bad, but when the quality will decline everyone will abandon ship, because it's not worth it to be loyal to a company that ****s you over every chance they get.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Now you are talking a hypothetical situation that hasn't happened. We have to look at the situation from where we are grounded currently. The reserve list is a fact at this time and there are cards that will not see reprints in any form that would make them tourney legal.
Look at it from where we are now. WOTC can't reprint reserve list cards. Those cards make up Vintage and Legacy decks. Those cards will eventually deteriorate over time.