For the record I am 100% in favor of the abolishment of the Reserve List and have been pushing for a reprint of the Collector's and International editions. But that's a much different discussion from what is happening here.
It isn't, really. This entire issue came about because most people can't afford to play Legacy, let alone Vintage, because the prices for staple cards are artificially high due to the fact that most of them can't be reprinted due to the Reserved List. Thus, if they want to play these formats, the only way they can do so is via proxies. (I personally got whipped playing a 10-proxy Legacy tournament many years ago, but at least I got to play)
So, yeah, the crackdown on proxies and the Reserved list are inextricably linked. It's like Wizards is saying "Legacy and Vintage are only for special people, not for the common rabble to play". (While this might still be true even if the Reserved List were 86'd, it'd still be better than what it is)
It isn't, really. This entire issue came about because most people can't afford to play Legacy, let alone Vintage, because the prices for staple cards are artificially high due to the fact that most of them can't be reprinted due to the Reserved List. Thus, if they want to play these formats, the only way they can do so is via proxies. (I personally got whipped playing a 10-proxy Legacy tournament many years ago, but at least I got to play)
So, yeah, the crackdown on proxies and the Reserved list are inextricably linked. It's like Wizards is saying "Legacy and Vintage are only for special people, not for the common rabble to play". (While this might still be true even if the Reserved List were 86'd, it'd still be better than what it is)
And official support for those formats has been steadily declining over time. They will eventually cut the cord on it. Magic is really a game meant for people who can afford to play it. It's a luxury. That's why it's not a charity case where every format ever needs official support and cards printed to support everyone that wants to play. Just because you like a format and want to play in it doesn't mean that WOTC has an obligation to keep it going just for those players when the amount of people playing standard and limited greatly outweighs it.
I believe that the reason WOTC is currently hosing eternal formats is that standard sells sets better. They create a format, with its own rules and banned list, simply because otherwise player would make their own. They then use their power over the market to make sure only the most dedicated players, those who would otherwise create their own formats, can play them.
I believe that the reason WOTC is currently hosing eternal formats is that standard sells sets better. They create a format, with its own rules and banned list, simply because otherwise player would make their own. They then use their power over the market to make sure only the most dedicated players, those who would otherwise create their own formats, can play them.
93/94
Canadian Highlander
Tiny Leaders
3 formats that have come up recently who feel like they only increase card prices.
And official support for those formats has been steadily declining over time. They will eventually cut the cord on it. Magic is really a game meant for people who can afford to play it. It's a luxury. That's why it's not a charity case where every format ever needs official support and cards printed to support everyone that wants to play. Just because you like a format and want to play in it doesn't mean that WOTC has an obligation to keep it going just for those players when the amount of people playing standard and limited greatly outweighs it.
Sure, WOTC does not have an obligation, but it is our right as consumers to voice our desires to the producer. That is partly what we are doing here and what I and others do by the purchases we make. You, WOTC and others do not have the right to silence discussion about why there is proxies, what could fix the proxy issue, who magic is for and the desire of other players to voice their opinion about reprints.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Sure, WOTC does not have an obligation, but it is our right as consumers to voice our desires to the producer. That is partly what we are doing here and what I and others do by the purchases we make. You, WOTC and others do not have the right to silence discussion about why there is proxies, what could fix the proxy issue, who magic is for and the desire of other players to voice their opinion about reprints.
You have full freedom of your wallet and speech. Up to the point where you want to participate in sanctioned events. Then you have to abide by the rules set in place by WOTC. No one is stopping you from proxying everything and playing Vintage with your friends at home for kicks.
Sure, WOTC does not have an obligation, but it is our right as consumers to voice our desires to the producer. That is partly what we are doing here and what I and others do by the purchases we make. You, WOTC and others do not have the right to silence discussion about why there is proxies, what could fix the proxy issue, who magic is for and the desire of other players to voice their opinion about reprints.
You have full freedom of your wallet and speech. Up to the point where you want to participate in sanctioned events. Then you have to abide by the rules set in place by WOTC. No one is stopping you from proxying everything and playing Vintage with your friends at home for kicks.
I never thought any different.
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Has there been anything official besides one store saying they got called about this? Could someone link to it. If there's nothing official or a large number of stores getting contacted in the same way I'm honestly thinking that someone's stirring the pot and trolling everyone.
Just to be clear, you're saying you think a well-known and popular game store is lying about this? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I mean, I read the FB thread. I'm a part of the group where it was posted. Many friends and acquaintances of mine were posting about how they just learned of this, hours before they were going to play in the event. This isn't some big hoax, if that's what you're thinking.
Then why is there no official announcement sent out to all WPN stores? Do you really think Wizards doesn't know tournaments with proxies (especially legacy and vintage) are not popular? I'm not straight up saying they're lying, but it's odd that they're the only ones to be singled out by this new policy and Wizards is ignoring everyone else doing it. All there is to go on is one shop (and I understand it's well known) saying there's this new policy no one else has heard of. Sorry, but I'm gonna wait for doomsdaying til there's something more official than one shop, regardless of who they are.
Magic is successful, at least in part, because there's no pretense that everyone deserves to play every format -- that everyone is entitled to be able to afford every card.
That's a pretentious attitude if I ever saw one. No one is calling for them to make legacy pre constructed decks with the best vintage staples. People are asking for better availability than there currently is. I think every format should be accessible to everyone. You might not be able to build the best deck, but definitely something serviceable.
Essentially you're putting classism into magic cards. Which for a tcg is just so utterly stupid. It's supposed to be a hobby. It should be up to the player based off preference not money on whether or not they can play in a format.
Friendly reminder to everyone, we cannot allow the discussion about creating/purchasing illegal proxies and/or fakes. Please keep this in mind, thank you.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Then why is there no official announcement sent out to all WPN stores? Do you really think Wizards doesn't know tournaments with proxies (especially legacy and vintage) are not popular? I'm not straight up saying they're lying, but it's odd that they're the only ones to be singled out by this new policy and Wizards is ignoring everyone else doing it. All there is to go on is one shop (and I understand it's well known) saying there's this new policy no one else has heard of. Sorry, but I'm gonna wait for doomsdaying til there's something more official than one shop, regardless of who they are.
According to the message Ed posted, they were singled out because, "[Wizards] received information concerning some questionable or undesirable activity that occurred at your store."
Additionally, Wizards' position is not that it's a "new policy" but a clarification of existing policy, and that the use of proxies violates copyright law. (And if it's true that people were using actual printed copies of the cards as proxies, Wizards is 100% correct on that point.)
Everytime one of these posts come up just merge it into the last thread about the reserved list
Pretty much true. They have to protect their intellectual property. Giving stores license to decide how to use or not use proxies doesn't work. I saw a store recently actually selling proxies in their display case. They fully advertised them as proxies, and there is no one mistaking a proxy Liliana of the Veil in that case for a real one (besides maybe a very new player), but honestly that is a dangerous precedent to set. Either they are serious about getting rid of counterfeits, or they aren't. And they should be serious about it.
Either they are serious about getting rid of counterfeits, or they aren't. And they should be serious about it.
If they were serious about getting rid of counterfeits what would be the most effective way to do so? Perhaps reprints?
The issue of proxies and reprints is similar to the black market for drugs. Raise the tax on cigarettes too high and the black market flourishes. Keep marijuana illegal and the black market will supply. Similarly keep the price of desired and needed (in order to play competitively) cards high and the supply low and the black market will fill the gap. It is really pretty simple. In addition, if the taxes on cigarettes are reasonable and marijuana is made legal, then the government can profit and has a new source of income. Similarly if WOTC reprints more reasonably (note I said reasonably, not drive prices to zero), then WOTC can profit. Better meeting the desires of consumers also provides the benefit of no longer needing to fund (i.e. lose money) countermeasures to police the black market. Another benefit is positive PR from happier consumers.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Hey folks, I checked into this and here’s what I can tell you:
First is an important clarification: Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Unauthorized reproductions of our game are a type of counterfeit, and we want business partners to help us in discouraging counterfeit Magic.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
Counterfeit cards are prohibited in sanctioned events, sounds like most people are on board with that. And based on Wizards’ Code of Conduct, we have started to ask stores not to organize unsanctioned events with counterfeit cards. And to be clear, no one we’ve communicated with recently has been suspended or punished as far as I know. We’ve talked to some stores on the difference between counterfeit and proxy cards, and are asking WPN to stores to work with us in protecting our intellectual property.
Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.
We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
I will never stop using an entirely proxied cube because I don't want to risk real cards in that sort of application.
That's a risk you take. They could sue you if they wanted, and they'd win. It's very likely not worth their time so they'd never actually do it, but what you're doing technically violates their intellectual property.
Okay that means no more legacy in this country, it was full proxy up until now even at the biggest store.
Modern will be squeezed, I am 3 cards short of both of my modern sideboards, (blood moon and spellskite and chalice of the void)they better be banning amulet bloom or no one will be able to afford to hate it out. Most tournaments were 8-16 proxy tournaments... so people could proxy a tarmogoyf or snapcasters and have a deck.
My most local game store owner was already pissed off about not being able to play with proxies at FNM, he just wants to have tournaments we were already struggling to get people to play at a new store this will quite possibly mean the death of our game store events.
Okay that means no more legacy in this country, it was full proxy up until now even at the biggest store.
Modern will be squeezed, I am 3 cards short of both of my modern sideboards, (blood moon and spellskite and chalice of the void)they better be banning amulet bloom or no one will be able to afford to hate it out. Most tournaments were 8-16 proxy tournaments... so people could proxy a tarmogoyf or snapcasters and have a deck.
My most local game store owner was already pissed off about not being able to play with proxies at FNM, he just wants to have tournaments we were already struggling to get people to play at a new store this will quite possibly mean the death of our game store events.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
That is not a valid argument against the use of proxies. WotC has the right to oppose the reproduction of their copyrighted art and writing, but that does not extend to merely serving an identical mechanical purpose. This is like Games Workshop telling you that you're not allowed to play Warhammer with an Undead army of Mantic zombies instead of Games Workshop zombies - if it's not a GW sanctioned tournament, they don't have a leg to stand on.
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It isn't, really. This entire issue came about because most people can't afford to play Legacy, let alone Vintage, because the prices for staple cards are artificially high due to the fact that most of them can't be reprinted due to the Reserved List. Thus, if they want to play these formats, the only way they can do so is via proxies. (I personally got whipped playing a 10-proxy Legacy tournament many years ago, but at least I got to play)
So, yeah, the crackdown on proxies and the Reserved list are inextricably linked. It's like Wizards is saying "Legacy and Vintage are only for special people, not for the common rabble to play". (While this might still be true even if the Reserved List were 86'd, it'd still be better than what it is)
And official support for those formats has been steadily declining over time. They will eventually cut the cord on it. Magic is really a game meant for people who can afford to play it. It's a luxury. That's why it's not a charity case where every format ever needs official support and cards printed to support everyone that wants to play. Just because you like a format and want to play in it doesn't mean that WOTC has an obligation to keep it going just for those players when the amount of people playing standard and limited greatly outweighs it.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
93/94
Canadian Highlander
Tiny Leaders
3 formats that have come up recently who feel like they only increase card prices.
Sure, WOTC does not have an obligation, but it is our right as consumers to voice our desires to the producer. That is partly what we are doing here and what I and others do by the purchases we make. You, WOTC and others do not have the right to silence discussion about why there is proxies, what could fix the proxy issue, who magic is for and the desire of other players to voice their opinion about reprints.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
You have full freedom of your wallet and speech. Up to the point where you want to participate in sanctioned events. Then you have to abide by the rules set in place by WOTC. No one is stopping you from proxying everything and playing Vintage with your friends at home for kicks.
I never thought any different.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Well, duh, if they don't really support an eternal format, of course the formats actually being supported look better when you put them side by side.
Unless you mean something else. heh.
Then why is there no official announcement sent out to all WPN stores? Do you really think Wizards doesn't know tournaments with proxies (especially legacy and vintage) are not popular? I'm not straight up saying they're lying, but it's odd that they're the only ones to be singled out by this new policy and Wizards is ignoring everyone else doing it. All there is to go on is one shop (and I understand it's well known) saying there's this new policy no one else has heard of. Sorry, but I'm gonna wait for doomsdaying til there's something more official than one shop, regardless of who they are.
That's a pretentious attitude if I ever saw one. No one is calling for them to make legacy pre constructed decks with the best vintage staples. People are asking for better availability than there currently is. I think every format should be accessible to everyone. You might not be able to build the best deck, but definitely something serviceable.
Essentially you're putting classism into magic cards. Which for a tcg is just so utterly stupid. It's supposed to be a hobby. It should be up to the player based off preference not money on whether or not they can play in a format.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
According to the message Ed posted, they were singled out because, "[Wizards] received information concerning some questionable or undesirable activity that occurred at your store."
Additionally, Wizards' position is not that it's a "new policy" but a clarification of existing policy, and that the use of proxies violates copyright law. (And if it's true that people were using actual printed copies of the cards as proxies, Wizards is 100% correct on that point.)
Pretty much true. They have to protect their intellectual property. Giving stores license to decide how to use or not use proxies doesn't work. I saw a store recently actually selling proxies in their display case. They fully advertised them as proxies, and there is no one mistaking a proxy Liliana of the Veil in that case for a real one (besides maybe a very new player), but honestly that is a dangerous precedent to set. Either they are serious about getting rid of counterfeits, or they aren't. And they should be serious about it.
If they were serious about getting rid of counterfeits what would be the most effective way to do so? Perhaps reprints?
The issue of proxies and reprints is similar to the black market for drugs. Raise the tax on cigarettes too high and the black market flourishes. Keep marijuana illegal and the black market will supply. Similarly keep the price of desired and needed (in order to play competitively) cards high and the supply low and the black market will fill the gap. It is really pretty simple. In addition, if the taxes on cigarettes are reasonable and marijuana is made legal, then the government can profit and has a new source of income. Similarly if WOTC reprints more reasonably (note I said reasonably, not drive prices to zero), then WOTC can profit. Better meeting the desires of consumers also provides the benefit of no longer needing to fund (i.e. lose money) countermeasures to police the black market. Another benefit is positive PR from happier consumers.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I secretly ship Ral x Jace... and Nissa x Chandra... :">That's a risk you take. They could sue you if they wanted, and they'd win. It's very likely not worth their time so they'd never actually do it, but what you're doing technically violates their intellectual property.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
thats cool. pretty sure your cube isn't being reported as a sanctioned event. so, kind of irrelevant.
https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/687071917065416704
Modern will be squeezed, I am 3 cards short of both of my modern sideboards, (blood moon and spellskite and chalice of the void)they better be banning amulet bloom or no one will be able to afford to hate it out. Most tournaments were 8-16 proxy tournaments... so people could proxy a tarmogoyf or snapcasters and have a deck.
My most local game store owner was already pissed off about not being able to play with proxies at FNM, he just wants to have tournaments we were already struggling to get people to play at a new store this will quite possibly mean the death of our game store events.
This is a serious problem
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I don't think you know what the word most means.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
That is not a valid argument against the use of proxies. WotC has the right to oppose the reproduction of their copyrighted art and writing, but that does not extend to merely serving an identical mechanical purpose. This is like Games Workshop telling you that you're not allowed to play Warhammer with an Undead army of Mantic zombies instead of Games Workshop zombies - if it's not a GW sanctioned tournament, they don't have a leg to stand on.