Okay that means no more legacy in this country, it was full proxy up until now even at the biggest store.
Modern will be squeezed, I am 3 cards short of both of my modern sideboards, (blood moon and spellskite and chalice of the void)they better be banning amulet bloom or no one will be able to afford to hate it out. Most tournaments were 8-16 proxy tournaments... so people could proxy a tarmogoyf or snapcasters and have a deck.
My most local game store owner was already pissed off about not being able to play with proxies at FNM, he just wants to have tournaments we were already struggling to get people to play at a new store this will quite possibly mean the death of our game store events.
This is a serious problem
I don't think you know what the word most means.
The context of his post is that "most events" apply to wherever it is that he is playing.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
We’ve talked to some stores on the difference between counterfeit and proxy cards, and are asking WPN to stores to work with us in protecting our intellectual property.
Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.
We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
Their misuse of the term "counterfeit" is still really effing disturbing to me, as well as the tone, which reeks, to me, of patronizing and out of touch PR fail. I mean, Jesus, is it really that hard to oppose proxying without conflating things? Obviously writing with sharpie on a card is not the same as making a fake with the intent of passing it off as the real thing.
What I'm loving about this proxy crackdown is that it WotC is enforcing something that has no impact on their profit margins. WotC only makes money on selling unopened product. The secondary market cares about counterfeits and proxies. More than likely, after someone from another store saw the Livestream, they issued a complaint to WotC that it was interfering with their ability to charge $800 for an Imperial Seal. For this complaint to carry enough weight to elicit action, it - more than likely - would have needed to come from a store that buys a LOT of unopened product, and possibly promotes sanctioned Legacy and/or Vintage tournaments.
I know several players that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few Judges that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few people that have custom foils of cards that were never originally foiled that they got to pimp out their EDH decks (who wouldn't want a foil Sliver Queen?), but never use in Sanctioned Play. If this is planned to be enforced, you may as well end the Wizards Play Network, because most shops likely have at least one player show up on Casual Play nights that falls under this overbearing criteria.
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May your games be chaotic and your decks be Rogue.
Okay that means no more legacy in this country, it was full proxy up until now even at the biggest store.
Modern will be squeezed, I am 3 cards short of both of my modern sideboards, (blood moon and spellskite and chalice of the void)they better be banning amulet bloom or no one will be able to afford to hate it out. Most tournaments were 8-16 proxy tournaments... so people could proxy a tarmogoyf or snapcasters and have a deck.
My most local game store owner was already pissed off about not being able to play with proxies at FNM, he just wants to have tournaments we were already struggling to get people to play at a new store this will quite possibly mean the death of our game store events.
This is a serious problem
I don't think you know what the word most means.
Nope, same city as me, and I agree. I don't think I've seen a Legacy or Vintage deck in this town that didn't rock a proxy somewhere.
We're on the other side of the planet - some of those Legacy/Vintage staples are mighty hard to get a hold of. If they wanted to kill off Legacy and Vintage play here and move everyone into Modern, I can't think of too many more effective measures they could've taken, bar just killing the whole thing off outright.
What I'm loving about this proxy crackdown is that it WotC is enforcing something that has no impact on their profit margins. WotC only makes money on selling unopened product. The secondary market cares about counterfeits and proxies. More than likely, after someone from another store saw the Livestream, they issued a complaint to WotC that it was interfering with their ability to charge $800 for an Imperial Seal. For this complaint to carry enough weight to elicit action, it - more than likely - would have needed to come from a store that buys a LOT of unopened product, and possibly promotes sanctioned Legacy and/or Vintage tournaments.
I know several players that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few Judges that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few people that have custom foils of cards that were never originally foiled that they got to pimp out their EDH decks (who wouldn't want a foil Sliver Queen?), but never use in Sanctioned Play. If this is planned to be enforced, you may as well end the Wizards Play Network, because most shops likely have at least one player show up on Casual Play nights that falls under this overbearing criteria.
A. If you think the secondary market doesn't effect Wizard's profit margins, you have no idea how the secondary market works.
B. You need to reread their post if you think this effects playtesting.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
It is crazy. It is also stupid, and thoroughly discourages my desire to support Wizards whatsoever.
Are they being 100%, actual factual serious? Obviously that question is rhetorical, but I am still in slight disbelief.
Stores should be punished for players practicing Magic, in a completely non sanctioned or tournament way, for purely test purposes? Please tell me I am failing to read something and this is not the case, because if so....well, I had started buying boosters, but I guess my Magic money can just go back to the non-criminal secondary market it was going to prior.
Want to know what will help us Eternal players possibly start buying product, Wizards? Stop doing stupid s*** like this.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
It is crazy. It is also stupid, and thoroughly discourages my desire to support Wizards whatsoever.
Are they being 100%, actual factual serious? Obviously that question is rhetorical, but I am still in slight disbelief.
Stores should be punished for players practicing Magic, in a completely non sanctioned or tournament way, for purely test purposes? Please tell me I am failing to read something and this is not the case, because if so....well, I had started buying boosters, but I guess my Magic money can just go back to the non-criminal secondary market it was going to prior.
Want to know what will help us Eternal players possibly start buying product, Wizards? Stop doing stupid s*** like this. I lost any and all desire to give them another dime. Disgusting.
Ok, it looks like I made the baseless assumption (always good to read the article at hand before forming an opinion on user posts, hurr) that this would affect purely casual games going on in the store between players in a non-event context. Thankfully, it appears I was wrong.
So wait....people were still sanctioning proxy events? Interesting. I don't see an inherent problem with that unless the counterfeits are actual attempts to visually knock-off the card, but.....whatever. Wizards has grown incredibly money hungry as of recent so I am not shocked by this "change" (considering I never knew this was even the case to begin with).
This is such a funky situation. The fact of the matter is Wizards doesn't make any money from out of print cards. So many cards for legacy that are out of print mean nothing to Wizards since there's literally no way for them to profit from it. Sales of cards between collectors and stores has zero Wizards involvment, like Wizards would make no money at all off the sale of a Trop, unless I'm mistaken and part of being a certified store involves giving a certain amount of profit to Wizards, then I can understand it but tmk that's not the case. Obviously if that is the case, if Wizards makes a certain percentage off each and every purchase, it would make sense for them to have this kind of policy, but enforcing it would be near impossible in many cases. By forcing no proxies, what they're doing is catering to the collectors and the LGS/web stores by basically forcing players to invest in cards so they can play official matches. It doesn't make any sense at all form Wizards' perspective to ban proxies from non-sanctioned events. In fact, allowing proxies in non-sanctioned events helps them in that players can test and mess around with cards, and if they like the deck they're using, they can invest fully and take part in sanctioned events. However, the fact is there seem to be quite a few LGS who are ok with a limited number of proxies ni non-sanctioned events, so this is really only catering to the collectors. However, in the long run you can argue this hurts collectors because this would slowly kill legacy and vintage as the number of actual cards decrease over time and the eternal formats become barren and the value of those cards goes down.
Honestly, the Reserved List needs to go. The big question will be whether or not the big money cards would lose value if they were reprinted. However, with so many fakes out there and how much better they're getting, you have to question if the value of these cards will go down just because people don't know if they're real or not.
As someone who doesn't have tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards on the reserved list, I'd be absolutely thrilled if there were a way for cards on the reserved list to be acquired for a fraction of the cost while simultaneously replenishing the very limited supply. However, I totally understand why someone with the card already would not be a fan of it. The potential for that card to totally sink in value is too high, even if you give it alternative art and all that. I think it would be absolutely amazing for the game for the reserved list to go poof and all those cards get reprinted and we can see a healthy legacy and vintage environment. But it is a collector's game first and foremost. I pray Wizards will change their policy, but I doubt that'll happen any time soon.
I like how common this argument is that people act as though every Magic player but them makes $50,000+ a year and can afford to pay retail on Magic singles for all formats.
Seriously, trade for cards. Build a collection and decks over time. Pool collections and make friends. An overwhelming amount of Magic players manage to play in sanctioned events with actual cards. As far as Vintage, that hasn't been an accessible format for years, so complaining you can't play with proxies for a format hardly anyone can play in paper isn't worth the effort. Legacy is onerous to obtain a lot of singles, but frankly the Commander pool has diluted a lot of Legacy playable cards as well, which definitely contributes to the cost. But again, the support isn't there. There aren't many Legacy events, and Wizards has pretty much said they can't meaningfully support the format in paper, yet somehow people are upset about a promise they have made no effort to keep.
I have never seen a Modern tournament with proxies, and I don't believe that is a real necessity whatsoever. That is just people unwilling to invest in the format despite reasonable accessibility.
I had a novel idea that could gain wotc a huge amount of sales and help the limited supply of expensive cards in vintage/legacy.
what if they randomly put a chase reprint in boosters. limited printing, but making crazy sales of the current set. the expeditions in boosters aren't standard legal, and this would be no different.
on the other hand. WPN will stop being attractive to LGS and who knows another ssnctioning body is born. just as in any sport. there are leagues and tournaments organized by different orgs with slightly different rules.
I do think MTG will outlive wizards. its unique in tcg's. it will be collectible as long as there is a fan base. magic is bigger than wotc and they are alienating too many in love with the game.
Im not up on the law, but isn't it 7 years after a copyright isn't renewed it falls into public domain? ha. a new company takes over printing cards and life is good haha
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
I want to start playing Legacy.
Since the mana base costs an arm and a leg, I have to save money to buy every. Single. Card.
I want to play the deck while buying the cards, so I make the 10 or so proxies I need and gradually reduce their number while buying the cards.
Without the possibility to use poxies, I would not have enough interest in starting legacy. I mean, you have to save thousands of dollars over many months, without ever playing in your store with the deck ? Sorry, just no.
Well this is severely disappointing. The only way they can make up for this is if Wotc THEN decides to do a limited supply run of a Legacy Masters set. EDIT: I personally don't care about the impact it would have on the Reserved List. Its frankly outlived its usefulness and is this looming and overbearing determent on the game. We only have this dang policy because that ONE TIME Wotc overprinted a reprint set which caused the price of several cards to drop dramatically. I would have some faith if they knew what they were doing nowadays in terms of how much to print of a specific set. Vintage Masters and Legacy Masters would always be Limited print runs in order to preserve the price and to increase attendance. Second Edit: Man this must especially suck for Vintage players who are the most likely to have proxies; even more so than Legacy Players. Third Edit: The policy doesn't affect me because I actually have decks (1 vintage & 1 legacy) that run zero proxies. But my heart truly does go out to those that do have proxies in their decks. Hopefully this isn't the nail in the coffin that kills off Legacy and Vintage.
Hey folks, I checked into this and here’s what I can tell you:
First is an important clarification: Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Unauthorized reproductions of our game are a type of counterfeit, and we want business partners to help us in discouraging counterfeit Magic.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
Counterfeit cards are prohibited in sanctioned events, sounds like most people are on board with that. And based on Wizards’ Code of Conduct, we have started to ask stores not to organize unsanctioned events with counterfeit cards. And to be clear, no one we’ve communicated with recently has been suspended or punished as far as I know. We’ve talked to some stores on the difference between counterfeit and proxy cards, and are asking WPN to stores to work with us in protecting our intellectual property.
Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.
We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
One one hand, it feels like he's saying "We're cool with playing proxies but not counterfeits." But then he says "I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play." That sounds like he's saying marker-on-cardboard proxies = counterfeits.
@WeezingPipes I am just going to assume that you are in the USA because it's just not the same in other countries, perhaps you are in western Europe.
The number of players and the population density of players is completely different here, before magic's popularity exploded there was only a small number of players, only a small number of people opening packs only a small number of people building up collections. Not every player actually opened packs, since then these players may have stopped playing these cards gathering dust (and value) perhaps these people liked the collectible part of the game and simply don't trade their cards. They have collection but they aren't trading. A lot of people, including the people that first introduced me to magic, play only casually, keeping their sweet decks with now expensive cards together for fun. Don't go to events, don't play standard still have these old cards. This happens everywhere I know, but if the number of people started lower there is a point where there just isn't enough of a card in circulation in a city.
When I started playing in New Phyrexia that's not that long ago. There was 1 store.. 1 store in a city of 2 million.. and it's not a normal city, it's one of the biggest by area in the world it takes 1 hour and 30 min to drive from one side to the other on the hwy. There was a single store in all that area. Since then the popularity has exploded thanks in part to innstrad being so good. there was 2... then 4 then 7!. there is at least 7 stores now (3 good games, Tactics, Quenda, Stratgem, Retro) each of them no closer than 15 min drive from each other and not every magic player is old enough to drive, public transport at 9 pm on a weeknight just isn't happening, events take time, if they start too early I can't make it home from work (an hour away), have dinner and get to the game store before the start of the event.
How do you keep these stores able to run events if you shrink the modern player base to only people that can afford tarmogoyfs and fetchlands? and more importantly blood moon and spellskite that's basically required to not die to some degenerate combo. I would say you would basically kill off events at most of these stores. That means less people playing magic that's a bad thing do you want to play magic or not?
If there aren't events and there isn't enough people around locally that will play why would you bother to invest in anything? your standard cards will be worthless without some number of them being playable in modern once they rotate, it is a lot of money to put into a deck when basically throw it out in 18 months, standard is kept afloat by having some of these cards keeping their price and going up over time once they rotate out. We expect to lose money on rotation it is part of it, but not to lose all of it.
New players naturally migrate into the other formats with rotation or over a few rotations, it's hard to explain but each rotation takes a part of your soul, you lose a deck you worked hard on learnt to play well it was yours, eventually you want something long term you can stick with. Ha haha metaphors. Modern offers that but what do you do with a half built modern deck? building and improving a deck over time is what you do as you move into modern but when you first make the move you only have so many of the staples only so many of them you can easily get your hands on, only so many standard/ex standard cards with enough value to get you these cards. At some point you have all the $10 cards but run out of trade fodder for the $20+ cards, you have to draft more and save up more to get to them. What do you do with you half finished deck?... Proxy allowable tournaments allow you to take your half finished deck, play magic, have fun, learn to play it and work towards your goal of owning all of the deck. I don't really see a lot of people half finishing a deck then just playing a proxy deck forever. It also is a place for people with full decks to get good enough opposition and good decks they might see in a GP to play against for practice.
Legacy is dead and I think stores will drop out of WPN just so they can run events
@elvish hoooker, pretty sure that's not the case.. anymore Disney couldn't allow Mickey mouse to go out of copyright so they lobbied the government to extend it for a very long time I can't remember exactly 60-100 years
Hey folks, I checked into this and here’s what I can tell you:
First is an important clarification: Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Unauthorized reproductions of our game are a type of counterfeit, and we want business partners to help us in discouraging counterfeit Magic.
I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
Counterfeit cards are prohibited in sanctioned events, sounds like most people are on board with that. And based on Wizards’ Code of Conduct, we have started to ask stores not to organize unsanctioned events with counterfeit cards. And to be clear, no one we’ve communicated with recently has been suspended or punished as far as I know. We’ve talked to some stores on the difference between counterfeit and proxy cards, and are asking WPN to stores to work with us in protecting our intellectual property.
Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.
We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
One one hand, it feels like he's saying "We're cool with playing proxies but not counterfeits." But then he says "I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play." That sounds like he's saying marker-on-cardboard proxies = counterfeits.
Which interpretation is correct?
From what I am reading and if I am interpreting it correctly...
A) If your card has wear/damage on it you are going to need to call a judge over so they can make you a proxy card.
B) Non-judges are not permitted to make proxies.
C) Proxies made by non-judges are equivalent to counterfeit cards.
D) Counterfeit cards are not allowed.
Sounds fairly messed up if you ask me. Especially if you don't own the card to begin with.
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
Well, IMHO this new policy should avoid cards in the Reserved List, because it refers to cards that Wizards doesn't have interest in reprint and they aren't going to make any money with this cards. Is silly as iTunes trying to fight piracy of songs they didn't sell. You want people to stop playing proxys? Ok, give them an alternative to buy them (like Legacy or Vintage Masters in paper). Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you're annoying more players than the benefits you can get by forbidding proxys.
Oh look, WOTC is making another stupid decision that alienates more of their fans and customers, why am I not surprised?
Can you answer why WotC would allow proxies? Like in what way that would benefit them as a business or anything?
Well, IMHO this new policy should avoid cards in the Reserved List, because it refers to cards that Wizards doesn't have interest in reprint and they aren't going to make any money with this cards. Is silly as iTunes trying to fight piracy of songs they didn't sell. You want people to stop playing proxys? Ok, give them an alternative to buy them (like Legacy or Vintage Masters in paper). Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you're annoying more players than the benefits you can get by forbidding proxys.
The people defending the reserved list will have to stop playing not having opponents, and will complain about the reserved list?
Its a step in that direction yes. Very much yes if they are actual Vintage/Legacy players and want more people to join the format so it doesn't become dead.
I don't see why Magic shouldn't have various formats of various costs. If you don't want to spend the money, play cheaper formats. If you want to play Vintage, and cannot afford it, make better life decisions.
Some people would argue that spending $2000+ on a stack of cardboard is a pretty poor life decision. Just because you CAN afford something doesn't mean you should buy it.
If it effects your finances, then sure, I'd agree. but if you are in a position in your life where you can afford to do so with no negative impact, why not?
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The context of his post is that "most events" apply to wherever it is that he is playing.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Their misuse of the term "counterfeit" is still really effing disturbing to me, as well as the tone, which reeks, to me, of patronizing and out of touch PR fail. I mean, Jesus, is it really that hard to oppose proxying without conflating things? Obviously writing with sharpie on a card is not the same as making a fake with the intent of passing it off as the real thing.
I know several players that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few Judges that use Sharpie proxies for testing. I know a few people that have custom foils of cards that were never originally foiled that they got to pimp out their EDH decks (who wouldn't want a foil Sliver Queen?), but never use in Sanctioned Play. If this is planned to be enforced, you may as well end the Wizards Play Network, because most shops likely have at least one player show up on Casual Play nights that falls under this overbearing criteria.
Nope, same city as me, and I agree. I don't think I've seen a Legacy or Vintage deck in this town that didn't rock a proxy somewhere.
We're on the other side of the planet - some of those Legacy/Vintage staples are mighty hard to get a hold of. If they wanted to kill off Legacy and Vintage play here and move everyone into Modern, I can't think of too many more effective measures they could've taken, bar just killing the whole thing off outright.
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A. If you think the secondary market doesn't effect Wizard's profit margins, you have no idea how the secondary market works.
B. You need to reread their post if you think this effects playtesting.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Perfect clarification. Thank you for the link.
It is crazy. It is also stupid, and thoroughly discourages my desire to support Wizards whatsoever.
Are they being 100%, actual factual serious? Obviously that question is rhetorical, but I am still in slight disbelief.
Stores should be punished for players practicing Magic, in a completely non sanctioned or tournament way, for purely test purposes? Please tell me I am failing to read something and this is not the case, because if so....well, I had started buying boosters, but I guess my Magic money can just go back to the non-criminal secondary market it was going to prior.
Want to know what will help us Eternal players possibly start buying product, Wizards? Stop doing stupid s*** like this.
You are completely misreading something.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
So wait....people were still sanctioning proxy events? Interesting. I don't see an inherent problem with that unless the counterfeits are actual attempts to visually knock-off the card, but.....whatever. Wizards has grown incredibly money hungry as of recent so I am not shocked by this "change" (considering I never knew this was even the case to begin with).
I wonder what are the motives behind WotC's recent actions.
Are they following EA? Profits > Players?
Defining what WotC deemed right.
Outlawing what WotC deemed wrong.
Honestly, the Reserved List needs to go. The big question will be whether or not the big money cards would lose value if they were reprinted. However, with so many fakes out there and how much better they're getting, you have to question if the value of these cards will go down just because people don't know if they're real or not.
As someone who doesn't have tens of thousands of dollars worth of cards on the reserved list, I'd be absolutely thrilled if there were a way for cards on the reserved list to be acquired for a fraction of the cost while simultaneously replenishing the very limited supply. However, I totally understand why someone with the card already would not be a fan of it. The potential for that card to totally sink in value is too high, even if you give it alternative art and all that. I think it would be absolutely amazing for the game for the reserved list to go poof and all those cards get reprinted and we can see a healthy legacy and vintage environment. But it is a collector's game first and foremost. I pray Wizards will change their policy, but I doubt that'll happen any time soon.
Seriously, trade for cards. Build a collection and decks over time. Pool collections and make friends. An overwhelming amount of Magic players manage to play in sanctioned events with actual cards. As far as Vintage, that hasn't been an accessible format for years, so complaining you can't play with proxies for a format hardly anyone can play in paper isn't worth the effort. Legacy is onerous to obtain a lot of singles, but frankly the Commander pool has diluted a lot of Legacy playable cards as well, which definitely contributes to the cost. But again, the support isn't there. There aren't many Legacy events, and Wizards has pretty much said they can't meaningfully support the format in paper, yet somehow people are upset about a promise they have made no effort to keep.
I have never seen a Modern tournament with proxies, and I don't believe that is a real necessity whatsoever. That is just people unwilling to invest in the format despite reasonable accessibility.
what if they randomly put a chase reprint in boosters. limited printing, but making crazy sales of the current set. the expeditions in boosters aren't standard legal, and this would be no different.
on the other hand. WPN will stop being attractive to LGS and who knows another ssnctioning body is born. just as in any sport. there are leagues and tournaments organized by different orgs with slightly different rules.
I do think MTG will outlive wizards. its unique in tcg's. it will be collectible as long as there is a fan base. magic is bigger than wotc and they are alienating too many in love with the game.
Im not up on the law, but isn't it 7 years after a copyright isn't renewed it falls into public domain? ha. a new company takes over printing cards and life is good haha
I want to start playing Legacy.
Since the mana base costs an arm and a leg, I have to save money to buy every. Single. Card.
I want to play the deck while buying the cards, so I make the 10 or so proxies I need and gradually reduce their number while buying the cards.
Without the possibility to use poxies, I would not have enough interest in starting legacy. I mean, you have to save thousands of dollars over many months, without ever playing in your store with the deck ? Sorry, just no.
EDIT: I personally don't care about the impact it would have on the Reserved List. Its frankly outlived its usefulness and is this looming and overbearing determent on the game. We only have this dang policy because that ONE TIME Wotc overprinted a reprint set which caused the price of several cards to drop dramatically. I would have some faith if they knew what they were doing nowadays in terms of how much to print of a specific set. Vintage Masters and Legacy Masters would always be Limited print runs in order to preserve the price and to increase attendance.
Second Edit: Man this must especially suck for Vintage players who are the most likely to have proxies; even more so than Legacy Players.
Third Edit: The policy doesn't affect me because I actually have decks (1 vintage & 1 legacy) that run zero proxies. But my heart truly does go out to those that do have proxies in their decks. Hopefully this isn't the nail in the coffin that kills off Legacy and Vintage.
One one hand, it feels like he's saying "We're cool with playing proxies but not counterfeits." But then he says "I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play." That sounds like he's saying marker-on-cardboard proxies = counterfeits.
Which interpretation is correct?
The number of players and the population density of players is completely different here, before magic's popularity exploded there was only a small number of players, only a small number of people opening packs only a small number of people building up collections. Not every player actually opened packs, since then these players may have stopped playing these cards gathering dust (and value) perhaps these people liked the collectible part of the game and simply don't trade their cards. They have collection but they aren't trading. A lot of people, including the people that first introduced me to magic, play only casually, keeping their sweet decks with now expensive cards together for fun. Don't go to events, don't play standard still have these old cards. This happens everywhere I know, but if the number of people started lower there is a point where there just isn't enough of a card in circulation in a city.
When I started playing in New Phyrexia that's not that long ago. There was 1 store.. 1 store in a city of 2 million.. and it's not a normal city, it's one of the biggest by area in the world it takes 1 hour and 30 min to drive from one side to the other on the hwy. There was a single store in all that area. Since then the popularity has exploded thanks in part to innstrad being so good. there was 2... then 4 then 7!. there is at least 7 stores now (3 good games, Tactics, Quenda, Stratgem, Retro) each of them no closer than 15 min drive from each other and not every magic player is old enough to drive, public transport at 9 pm on a weeknight just isn't happening, events take time, if they start too early I can't make it home from work (an hour away), have dinner and get to the game store before the start of the event.
How do you keep these stores able to run events if you shrink the modern player base to only people that can afford tarmogoyfs and fetchlands? and more importantly blood moon and spellskite that's basically required to not die to some degenerate combo. I would say you would basically kill off events at most of these stores. That means less people playing magic that's a bad thing do you want to play magic or not?
If there aren't events and there isn't enough people around locally that will play why would you bother to invest in anything? your standard cards will be worthless without some number of them being playable in modern once they rotate, it is a lot of money to put into a deck when basically throw it out in 18 months, standard is kept afloat by having some of these cards keeping their price and going up over time once they rotate out. We expect to lose money on rotation it is part of it, but not to lose all of it.
New players naturally migrate into the other formats with rotation or over a few rotations, it's hard to explain but each rotation takes a part of your soul, you lose a deck you worked hard on learnt to play well it was yours, eventually you want something long term you can stick with. Ha haha metaphors. Modern offers that but what do you do with a half built modern deck? building and improving a deck over time is what you do as you move into modern but when you first make the move you only have so many of the staples only so many of them you can easily get your hands on, only so many standard/ex standard cards with enough value to get you these cards. At some point you have all the $10 cards but run out of trade fodder for the $20+ cards, you have to draft more and save up more to get to them. What do you do with you half finished deck?... Proxy allowable tournaments allow you to take your half finished deck, play magic, have fun, learn to play it and work towards your goal of owning all of the deck. I don't really see a lot of people half finishing a deck then just playing a proxy deck forever. It also is a place for people with full decks to get good enough opposition and good decks they might see in a GP to play against for practice.
Legacy is dead and I think stores will drop out of WPN just so they can run events
@elvish hoooker, pretty sure that's not the case.. anymore Disney couldn't allow Mickey mouse to go out of copyright so they lobbied the government to extend it for a very long time I can't remember exactly 60-100 years
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
From what I am reading and if I am interpreting it correctly...
A) If your card has wear/damage on it you are going to need to call a judge over so they can make you a proxy card.
B) Non-judges are not permitted to make proxies.
C) Proxies made by non-judges are equivalent to counterfeit cards.
D) Counterfeit cards are not allowed.
Sounds fairly messed up if you ask me. Especially if you don't own the card to begin with.
You may play with proxies until you're caught. lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Well, IMHO this new policy should avoid cards in the Reserved List, because it refers to cards that Wizards doesn't have interest in reprint and they aren't going to make any money with this cards. Is silly as iTunes trying to fight piracy of songs they didn't sell. You want people to stop playing proxys? Ok, give them an alternative to buy them (like Legacy or Vintage Masters in paper). Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you're annoying more players than the benefits you can get by forbidding proxys.
Bolded for what is effectively the truth.
The people defending the reserved list will have to stop playing not having opponents, and will complain about the reserved list?
Its a step in that direction yes. Very much yes if they are actual Vintage/Legacy players and want more people to join the format so it doesn't become dead.
If it effects your finances, then sure, I'd agree. but if you are in a position in your life where you can afford to do so with no negative impact, why not?